Syria

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Giff
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Re: Syria

Post by Giff »

brian wrote:I think it's fairly obvious by now I'm no Trump supporter, but under the circumstances this seems like a proportional response to gassing civilians and the kind of action it's appropriate for the United States to take. How things ravel or unravel from here is anyone's guess, but I don't think the missile attack was completely uncalled for.
Agree as well.
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EnochRoot
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Re: Syria

Post by EnochRoot »

howard wrote:This is a nice summary of our history of fucking up this country. Long (about 6000 words) but valuable.

Syria: Another Pipeline War
by Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.
Have you seen Gaius Publius' Cliffs Notes version of RFK Jr's tome?
Bottom Line

Bottom line, it’s as Kennedy said: “No one wants to die for a pipeline” … but many do and will.

I’ll offer three thoughts. One, if we weren’t so determined to be deeply dependent on fossil fuels, this would be their war, not ours. Two, we are deeply dependent on fossil fuels because of the political machinations of the oil companies, their CEOs, and the banks and hedge funds who fund them, all of whom pay our government officials — via campaign contributions and the revolving door — to prolong that dependence. We’re here because the holders of big oil money want us here.

And three, keep all this in mind during the term of the next president. It will help you make sense of the phony warrior-cum-humanitarian arguments we’re almost certain to be subjected to.

We have been at war in Syria over pipelines since 1949. This is just the next mad phase.
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DaveInSeattle
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Re: Syria

Post by DaveInSeattle »

brian wrote:I think it's fairly obvious by now I'm no Trump supporter, but under the circumstances this seems like a proportional response to gassing civilians and the kind of action it's appropriate for the United States to take. How things ravel or unravel from here is anyone's guess, but I don't think the missile attack was completely uncalled for.
I think I agree with this as well. Assad needs to be dealt with, but my real problem is that I don't trust Trump AT ALL to do this in even a remotely competent way. And I do find it bizarre that we are supposed to believe that seeing TV footage of dead kids from Sarin gas had this amazing effect on him, but seeing dead refugee kids washed up on the beach didn't do anything.

I'm also really scared that he's going to feel empowered by watching "Fox and Friends/Morning Joe" this morning, and seeing the pundits praise him and cable news in full war-boner mode, showing the footage of the cruise missiles on continuous loop, and think "hey, this Presidentin' is easy!". Because there's nothing that Cable News loves more then war.

Oh, I also think the use of "choked out" was creepy as FUCK.
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Re: Syria

Post by brian »

Yeah, agree with all that. I don't think he has the mental acuity to deal with what is essentially 3-D chess given all of the players involved. Even Obama, who on his worst day, could run circles around Trump more or less threw his hands up in the air and walked away from the table on Syria (this is not necessarily an unreasonable approach for an American president to take. The act of doing nothing is itself doing something.)
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DaveInSeattle
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Re: Syria

Post by DaveInSeattle »

brian wrote:Yeah, agree with all that. I don't think he has the mental acuity to deal with what is essentially 3-D chess given all of the players involved. Even Obama, who on his worst day, could run circles around Trump more or less threw his hands up in the air and walked away from the table on Syria (this is not necessarily an unreasonable approach for an American president to take. The act of doing nothing is itself doing something.)
Obama wanted to strike Assad, but made the mistake of following the constitution and asking for Congressional approval before doing it.

I do agree though...there are some situations where there are no good answers, and Syria is a prefect example of it.
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Re: Syria

Post by Steve of phpBB »

DaveInSeattle wrote:
brian wrote:I think it's fairly obvious by now I'm no Trump supporter, but under the circumstances this seems like a proportional response to gassing civilians and the kind of action it's appropriate for the United States to take. How things ravel or unravel from here is anyone's guess, but I don't think the missile attack was completely uncalled for.
I think I agree with this as well. Assad needs to be dealt with, but my real problem is that I don't trust Trump AT ALL to do this in even a remotely competent way. And I do find it bizarre that we are supposed to believe that seeing TV footage of dead kids from Sarin gas had this amazing effect on him, but seeing dead refugee kids washed up on the beach didn't do anything.

I'm also really scared that he's going to feel empowered by watching "Fox and Friends/Morning Joe" this morning, and seeing the pundits praise him and cable news in full war-boner mode, showing the footage of the cruise missiles on continuous loop, and think "hey, this Presidentin' is easy!". Because there's nothing that Cable News loves more then war.

Oh, I also think the use of "choked out" was creepy as FUCK.
I'm with all of you on this.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Ryan
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Re: Syria

Post by Ryan »

I'm assuming the Darfur or Nigeria missiles are departing tonight. Dead kids from there have been on TV for decades.
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Joe K
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Re: Syria

Post by Joe K »

DaveInSeattle wrote:
brian wrote:Yeah, agree with all that. I don't think he has the mental acuity to deal with what is essentially 3-D chess given all of the players involved. Even Obama, who on his worst day, could run circles around Trump more or less threw his hands up in the air and walked away from the table on Syria (this is not necessarily an unreasonable approach for an American president to take. The act of doing nothing is itself doing something.)
Obama wanted to strike Assad, but made the mistake of following the constitution and asking for Congressional approval before doing it.

I do agree though...there are some situations where there are no good answers, and Syria is a prefect example of it.
You're being awfully generous to Obama given that he attacked Libya without any Congressional authorization. But I otherwise agree that this is a classic example of a no-win situation. Assad is a very bad actor but I just don't see what the endgame is here. Some of the strongest rebel factions are extremist groups with ties to al-Qaeda, so I have no idea what happens in Assad is deposed. And I echo others' concerns and have zero faith in Trump's ability to navigate such a complicated and high-risk situation.
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Re: Syria

Post by P.D.X. »

Maybe he can get Kushner on it.

/we're so fucked
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degenerasian
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Re: Syria

Post by degenerasian »

If Assad is removed the big question is will the new government be a US or Russian puppet?
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Re: Syria

Post by brian »

degenerasian wrote:If Assad is removed the big question is will the new government be a US or Russian puppet?
If anything, I think it's more likely to be a caliphate run by ISIS or al-Qaeda.
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Steve of phpBB
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Re: Syria

Post by Steve of phpBB »

I can't remember if I said this before on here, but Syria is the Kobayashi Maru.

That being said, I have no problem with "If you use chemical weapons, you get attacked." Especially when the only real alternative is, "If you use chemical weapons, I will shake my fist at you." It doesn't help the kids in Darfur or Nigeria, and it certainly doesn't help the kids of Syria as much as an open refugee policy. But if an attack stops or hinders the use of chemical weapons, that's a good thing in and of itself.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: Syria

Post by Joe K »

brian wrote:
degenerasian wrote:If Assad is removed the big question is will the new government be a US or Russian puppet?
If anything, I think it's more likely to be a caliphate run by ISIS or al-Qaeda.
Agreed. Although there are some moderate groups opposing Assad, the rebel groups that are the most effective fighters are the ISIS/al-Qaeda types.
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Re: Syria

Post by EnochRoot »

Steve of phpBB wrote:I can't remember if I said this before on here, but Syria is the Kobayashi Maru.

That being said, I have no problem with "If you use chemical weapons, you get attacked." Especially when the only real alternative is, "If you use chemical weapons, I will shake my fist at you." It doesn't help the kids in Darfur or Nigeria, and it certainly doesn't help the kids of Syria as much as an open refugee policy. But if an attack stops or hinders the use of chemical weapons, that's a good thing in and of itself.
Except that's exactly what he did. He tipped off the Russians, who tipped off the Syrians, and btw, all those missiles they shot at that airbase? It was still operational enough today to launch a bombing campaign on a human rights watch organization.

What a shit show. This was a $100m deflection to get the media to stop talking about Trump/Russia.
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Steve of phpBB
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Re: Syria

Post by Steve of phpBB »

EnochRoot wrote:
Steve of phpBB wrote:I can't remember if I said this before on here, but Syria is the Kobayashi Maru.

That being said, I have no problem with "If you use chemical weapons, you get attacked." Especially when the only real alternative is, "If you use chemical weapons, I will shake my fist at you." It doesn't help the kids in Darfur or Nigeria, and it certainly doesn't help the kids of Syria as much as an open refugee policy. But if an attack stops or hinders the use of chemical weapons, that's a good thing in and of itself.
Except that's exactly what he did. He tipped off the Russians, who tipped off the Syrians, and btw, all those missiles they shot at that airbase? It was still operational enough today to launch a bombing campaign on a human rights watch organization.

What a shit show. This was a $100m deflection to get the media to stop talking about Trump/Russia.
Yeah, I was presupposing that the attack would actually do some damage. I agree, if there really was no damage, this is just shaking a fist.

I guess the big question is if/when Assad uses chemical weapons again.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: Syria

Post by Joe K »

EnochRoot wrote:
Steve of phpBB wrote:I can't remember if I said this before on here, but Syria is the Kobayashi Maru.

That being said, I have no problem with "If you use chemical weapons, you get attacked." Especially when the only real alternative is, "If you use chemical weapons, I will shake my fist at you." It doesn't help the kids in Darfur or Nigeria, and it certainly doesn't help the kids of Syria as much as an open refugee policy. But if an attack stops or hinders the use of chemical weapons, that's a good thing in and of itself.
Except that's exactly what he did. He tipped off the Russians, who tipped off the Syrians, and btw, all those missiles they shot at that airbase? It was still operational enough today to launch a bombing campaign on a human rights watch organization.

What a shit show. This was a $100m deflection to get the media to stop talking about Trump/Russia.
This is bullshit. There are reports that several Syrian army officers, including a general, were killed in the strike. That sort of defeats the idea that the goal was to directly or indirectly "tip them off." Also, as to the point about "tipping off the Russians," Obama had already entered into an accord with Russia to share info about strikes to avoid confusion between the US and Russia. I know lots of people want to view everything Trump does as part of a Putin conspiracy but there is no way that Russia condoned this missile strike.
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Re: Syria

Post by Nonlinear FC »

There are actually a lot of questions about the US / Russia interactions on this. Russia is all outraged today, but they have deployed a missile defense system to protect a number of Syrian assets, including that airfield. Why didn't they use it? Could be a number of reasons, from not wanting show their cards as to capabilities; over to Russia understanding that the gas attack required some kind of response and lobbing missiles at air bases was probably something they could swallow.

They are going through the outrage dance, but Tillerson and Haley have both said today that while prepared to do more, they hope we don't have to... That's a very clear "one and done" posture. It's all for show today.

And what the fuck is the actual plan here? Trump has croc tears about dead children, with no plan to let them escape as refugees... We've all seen that trotted out today, and there's a lot of merit to that argument. But what is Trump's actual plan going forward? If we don't hear about that in the coming days, pretty clear that this was all for show and deflection.
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Re: Syria

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Joe K wrote:... There are reports that several Syrian army officers, including a general, were killed in the strike. ...
I don't think I would put any faith in any "reports" yet. There's no way anything would be reliable.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: Syria

Post by Nonlinear FC »

http://abcnews.go.com/International/eye ... d=46641107

One eyewitness is a bit thin, but... It doesn't take a ton of conspiracy theory nuttery to envision Russia tipping off the Syrians. At all. You can move a lot of shit in 60 minutes.
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Re: Syria

Post by Johnnie »

But I thought it's not a one and done! I'm so confused!

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Re: Syria

Post by EnochRoot »

Joe K wrote:
EnochRoot wrote:
Steve of phpBB wrote:I can't remember if I said this before on here, but Syria is the Kobayashi Maru.

That being said, I have no problem with "If you use chemical weapons, you get attacked." Especially when the only real alternative is, "If you use chemical weapons, I will shake my fist at you." It doesn't help the kids in Darfur or Nigeria, and it certainly doesn't help the kids of Syria as much as an open refugee policy. But if an attack stops or hinders the use of chemical weapons, that's a good thing in and of itself.
Except that's exactly what he did. He tipped off the Russians, who tipped off the Syrians, and btw, all those missiles they shot at that airbase? It was still operational enough today to launch a bombing campaign on a human rights watch organization.

What a shit show. This was a $100m deflection to get the media to stop talking about Trump/Russia.
This is bullshit. There are reports that several Syrian army officers, including a general, were killed in the strike. That sort of defeats the idea that the goal was to directly or indirectly "tip them off." Also, as to the point about "tipping off the Russians," Obama had already entered into an accord with Russia to share info about strikes to avoid confusion between the US and Russia. I know lots of people want to view everything Trump does as part of a Putin conspiracy but there is no way that Russia condoned this missile strike.
Nobody (at least not I) said Russia condoned the attack. And no, just because you say Syrian army officers died (link?) doesn't necessarily refute Syria being tipped off by Russia. Don't get sold the notion this was a 'change of heart' for humanitarian reasons.

The United States doesn't attack on humanitarian grounds.
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Re: Syria

Post by DaveInSeattle »

EnochRoot wrote: The United States doesn't attack on humanitarian grounds.
Donald Trump wouldn't know humanitarian if it jumped up and bit him on his fat doughy ass.
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Re: Syria

Post by Rex »

Until I see evidence to the contrary, I'm going to assume that U.S. foreign policy is being set by whoever last spoke to Trump.
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Re: Syria

Post by sancarlos »

"What a bunch of pedantic pricks." - sybian
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Re: Syria

Post by EdRomero »

This is gut-wrenching, but so well done. And because everything comes back to Trump/Putin, much of this is about the effects of Russian planes bombing hospitals.
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/for-sama/
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Re: Syria

Post by EnochRoot »

EdRomero wrote: Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:00 am This is gut-wrenching, but so well done. And because everything comes back to Trump/Putin, much of this is about the effects of Russian planes bombing hospitals.
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/for-sama/
They’re streaming the whole movie on that site?

I just watched the trailer. Amazing thing, humanity.
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EdRomero
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Re: Syria

Post by EdRomero »

Not sure. I watched it on PBS and then found the link.
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