Random Politics

[mister d]

So the lesson you take from "even a pedophile can win in Alabama as long as he's a white Republican" is that we have to circle the wagons around own garbage politicians?

[brian]

Now would be a good time for Franken to resign.

[Steve of phpBB]

So the lesson you take from "even a pedophile can win in Alabama as long as he's a white Republican" is that we have to circle the wagons around own garbage politicians?

Remember, though, not all of them. Just the ones with ultra-high Value Over Replacement in high-leverage situations.

I was ok with the Cubs acquiring Aroldis Chapman for three months to win a World Series. And I was ok with the Cubs not trying to resign him after. I think this is a similar thing.

[Giff]

So the lesson you take from "even a pedophile can win in Alabama as long as he's a white Republican" is that we have to circle the wagons around own garbage politicians?

Nope. But if it's the only choice I have and bills like the current tax one could hang in the balance, I'm going to do it. I'm tired of playing by different standards and now we are seeing catastrophic consequences of not playing by the same rules.

[mister d]

The different rules that cost us were refusal/inability to say anything goes to win an election, not "rape if you need to blow off some steam, we've got your back". Its conflating the issue.

[mister d]

In case I didn't say that how I meant to: There is a world of difference between "destroy your political opponents" and "destroy anyone".

[EnochRoot]

So the lesson you take from "even a pedophile can win in Alabama as long as he's a white Republican" is that we have to circle the wagons around own garbage politicians?

Pretty much, yes. Doesn't anybody smell the hit job? The Democrats are playing right into the their hands.

"Watch.." observed Roger Stone, further adding..."They'll eat their own."

[degenerasian]

Now would be a good time for Franken to resign.

Sounds like that's what's happening. Presser called for tomorrow, multiple female Dems saying he should resign.

[EnochRoot]

Hell hath no fury like a circular firing squad.

[Joe K]

https://twitter.com/politicswolf/status ... 6533436416

Rather than suggesting that Democrats are getting duped by GOP dirty tricks, could the differing reactions just be a product of the fact that their Congressional group is more diverse and rightfully less tolerant of harassing behavior?

[EnochRoot]

https://twitter.com/politicswolf/status/938472116533436416

Rather than suggesting that Democrats are getting duped by GOP dirty tricks, could the differing reactions just be a product of the fact that their Congressional group is more diverse and rightfully less tolerant of harassing behavior?

I don't think they're at all related. But to his point about the # of women in congress? I smell opportunism afoot. They're not neophytes. They know how things work.

Still sticking with the circular firing squad analogy.

[mister d]

And the analogy still sucks, especially if you have the female senators who came out today as part of that squad.

[Nonlinear FC]

I don't really think that "having a conscience" and/or respect for societal norms is what hurts the Democrats. Although there's an asymmetry there between the Dems and GOP, the asymmetry that really hurts is with respect to the parties' forcefulness in using the levers of power. I think the Dems could and should mimic the GOP's aggressiveness on pushing sweeping policy changes, judicial appointments, use of the filibuster, etc. But that can all be done without condoning awful behavior by Democratic politicians. I'm not saying that people should never vote for a Democratic candidate who mistreats women (like, say, Bill Clinton). I just think it's possible to match the GOP's Machiavellian use of power without completely disregarding personal ethics or morality.

But you have to get the power first. I'm not going to advocate Al Franken resigning if the Republicans aren't going to advocate the resignations of POTUS or Roy Moore if elected.

I have no problem, AT ALL, with Franken resigning because there's a Democratic governor in Minnesota. And because I just completely disagree with so many of you about where things are going. We aren't them, that's a big part of the brand. And increasingly, that doesn't just mean rich vs. working class, it's things like "we done endorse/condone rapists," "we aren't Nazis/white supremacists." Think about that. That is increasingly being cemented as the GOP brand.

The Republicans are marginalizing themselves EVERY DAY. Backing Moore is a stunningly short-sighted move. Even if Moore wins, the GOP and the President have cemented that THEY are the party that doesn't give a shit about women. There are very few people in this country, percentage-wise, that are going to accept this.

I'm moving in a direction of skipping these threads until we get to Nov. 2018.

Reading some of these posts is depressing. We're better than them. We don't go so low as to straight up endorse people that are as disgusting as Moore. No fucking way.

[EnochRoot]

And the analogy still sucks, especially if you have the female senators who came out today as part of that squad.

Oh please. More white women voted for Trump in '16. Are these female senators going to run over to the right side of the aisle to join them?

This is the type of crap-tastic decision-making you get when your party is completely bereft of leadership. Can't imagine this happening under Harry Reid.

[EnochRoot]

I don't really think that "having a conscience" and/or respect for societal norms is what hurts the Democrats. Although there's an asymmetry there between the Dems and GOP, the asymmetry that really hurts is with respect to the parties' forcefulness in using the levers of power. I think the Dems could and should mimic the GOP's aggressiveness on pushing sweeping policy changes, judicial appointments, use of the filibuster, etc. But that can all be done without condoning awful behavior by Democratic politicians. I'm not saying that people should never vote for a Democratic candidate who mistreats women (like, say, Bill Clinton). I just think it's possible to match the GOP's Machiavellian use of power without completely disregarding personal ethics or morality.

But you have to get the power first. I'm not going to advocate Al Franken resigning if the Republicans aren't going to advocate the resignations of POTUS or Roy Moore if elected.

I have no problem, AT ALL, with Franken resigning because there's a Democratic governor in Minnesota. And because I just completely disagree with so many of you about where things are going. We aren't them, that's a big part of the brand. And increasingly, that doesn't just mean rich vs. working class, it's things like "we done endorse/condone rapists," "we aren't Nazis/white supremacists." Think about that. That is increasingly being cemented as the GOP brand.

The Republicans are marginalizing themselves EVERY DAY. Backing Moore is a stunningly short-sighted move. Even if Moore wins, the GOP and the President have cemented that THEY are the party that doesn't give a shit about women. There are very few people in this country, percentage-wise, that are going to accept this.

I'm moving in a direction of skipping these threads until we get to Nov. 2018.

Reading some of these posts is depressing. We're better than them. We don't go so low as to straight up endorse people that are as disgusting as Moore. No fucking way.

Huh?

[Nonlinear FC]

Now would be a good time for Franken to resign.

Sen. Gillibrand just called for him to step down.

He's gone by the holiday break.

ETA.. Yeah, just seeing the presser... He's toast.

[Nonlinear FC]

I don't really think that "having a conscience" and/or respect for societal norms is what hurts the Democrats. Although there's an asymmetry there between the Dems and GOP, the asymmetry that really hurts is with respect to the parties' forcefulness in using the levers of power. I think the Dems could and should mimic the GOP's aggressiveness on pushing sweeping policy changes, judicial appointments, use of the filibuster, etc. But that can all be done without condoning awful behavior by Democratic politicians. I'm not saying that people should never vote for a Democratic candidate who mistreats women (like, say, Bill Clinton). I just think it's possible to match the GOP's Machiavellian use of power without completely disregarding personal ethics or morality.

But you have to get the power first. I'm not going to advocate Al Franken resigning if the Republicans aren't going to advocate the resignations of POTUS or Roy Moore if elected.

I have no problem, AT ALL, with Franken resigning because there's a Democratic governor in Minnesota. And because I just completely disagree with so many of you about where things are going. We aren't them, that's a big part of the brand. And increasingly, that doesn't just mean rich vs. working class, it's things like "we done endorse/condone rapists," "we aren't Nazis/white supremacists." Think about that. That is increasingly being cemented as the GOP brand.

The Republicans are marginalizing themselves EVERY DAY. Backing Moore is a stunningly short-sighted move. Even if Moore wins, the GOP and the President have cemented that THEY are the party that doesn't give a shit about women. There are very few people in this country, percentage-wise, that are going to accept this.

I'm moving in a direction of skipping these threads until we get to Nov. 2018.

Reading some of these posts is depressing. We're better than them. We don't go so low as to straight up endorse people that are as disgusting as Moore. No fucking way.

Huh?

Not sure where the confusion lies. If a sitting Democratic president and the DNC endorsed someone with Moore's background, there'd be Hell to pay. We are better than that.

(I'm not saying there's no history of endorsing/backing shady Democrats. This is so beyond anything we've seen in modern politics, it's truly a game changer.)

[Nonlinear FC]

And the analogy still sucks, especially if you have the female senators who came out today as part of that squad.

Oh please. More white women voted for Trump in '16. Are these female senators going to run over to the right side of the aisle to join them?

This is the type of crap-tastic decision-making you get when your party is completely bereft of leadership. Can't imagine this happening under Harry Reid.

Do you know how many women have now come forward to accuse Franken? It's at least a half-dozen at this point.

I think I'm missing something. This is untenable for Democrats.

I'm sorry this seems to upset folks, that we aren't fucking disgusting humans.

[mister d]

I was ok with the Cubs acquiring Aroldis Chapman for three months to win a World Series. And I was ok with the Cubs not trying to resign him after. I think this is a similar thing.

Even acknowledging what he "allegedly" did isn't at rampant sexual assault levels, I still hate him on the Yankees. If they released him tomorrow I'd be pretty thrilled even though obviously it weakens the pen.

[degenerasian]

I would say the morality of a Senator would be more important than an athlete. Athletes aren't writing the laws of the nation.

I get both sides of the argument the last 2 pages but in the end, the person running can't not matter at all.
Otherwise you could just run a toilet seat for office.

[Giff]

And the analogy still sucks, especially if you have the female senators who came out today as part of that squad.

Oh please. More white women voted for Trump in '16. Are these female senators going to run over to the right side of the aisle to join them?

This is the type of crap-tastic decision-making you get when your party is completely bereft of leadership. Can't imagine this happening under Harry Reid.

Do you know how many women have now come forward to accuse Franken? It's at least a half-dozen at this point.

I think I'm missing something. This is untenable for Democrats.

I'm sorry this seems to upset folks, that we aren't fucking disgusting humans.

It's not upsetting me that we aren't disgusting human beings. It's upsetting me that the same standard isn't applied to the other party. I hope I'm wrong and all that's going on and the reactions to Moore/Trump/Franken/Conyers does result in a massive Dem wave in 2018 that rightfully destroys the GOP.

I'm just super scared we're not and this tax bill that's about to be passed is truly frightening to me. I'm willing to support a scumbag in the right situation if the result is working class people aren't irrevocably fucked over.

[Rex]

Sometimes you gotta do the hard thing.

[L-Jam3]

I think the fundamental difference between Democrats and Republicans is the Democrats' downfall. I haven't been seeing memes reading things like "Rapist Roy Moore", or him photoshopped in a Subway saying things like "it worked for Jared". And that's probably because there's a level of decency in Democrats, or liberals in general.

God knows, however, if there was an "D" after Roy Moore's name, we'd see memes about him around. I'm not trying to say that memes would win the election, but their basic decency prevents them from a win-at-all-costs mentality.

[EnochRoot]

I think the fundamental difference between Democrats and Republicans is the Democrats' downfall. I haven't been seeing memes reading things like "Rapist Roy Moore", or him photoshopped in a Subway saying things like "it worked for Jared". And that's probably because there's a level of decency in Democrats, or liberals in general.

God knows, however, if there was an "R" after Roy Moore's name, we'd see memes about him around. I'm not trying to say that memes would win the election, but their basic decency prevents them from a win-at-all-costs mentality.

This.

Roger Stone played on a currency to be wrought upon Democrats: their conscience.

Like.A.Fiddle.

[Nonlinear FC]

And I would just say that there is a growing recognition that folks can't be passive about the stuff the GOP is prone to do if left unchecked.

I have that faith. I understand why, in the aftermath of 2016, many here are worried.

ETA - The brilliance of guys like Atwood, Norquist, Gingrich and so many others is that they understood you needed to be subtle about this stuff, at least when addressing the non-base populace. You had to talk like normal people and do things around the margin.

What's been going on since Obama won is that they have lost their fucking minds. They are making no attempt at hiding a bunch of stuff that had always been pretty obvious, but was tamped down.

[mister d]

THOSE TWO THINGS AREN'T CONNECTED AT ALL.

Not attacking Moore even more viciously is bad and its a huge failing. But that's independent of whats happening with Franken and Conyers, even if you want to attribute both to conscience and decency. Keeping sexual predators in office on our side isn't going to win us Alabama but it will set us up for future losses or missed future gains.

[degenerasian]

THOSE TWO THINGS AREN'T CONNECTED AT ALL.

Not attacking Moore even more viciously is bad and its a huge failing. But that's independent of whats happening with Franken and Conyers, even if you want to attribute both to conscience and decency. Keeping sexual predators in office on our side isn't going to win us Alabama but it will set us up for future losses or missed future gains.

This.

And it's too simplistic to say that Democrats are losing because they aren't dirty enough. They didn't just lose the presidency, they are losing at all levels. They have had some pretty poor strategies.

Frankin had to resign. They could not go down this rabbit hole and win a battle of don't-give-a-fucks (as mister d said). They need to slowly rebuild the foundation and this is a good start.

[Giff]

This is like the strawmanliest thread ever. Jesus.

[brian]

I refuse to believe that this can't be turned against the GOP in the same kind of Machavellian way that they want to weaponize it against the Democrats. There's a realpolitik involved that means losing Franken doesn't really hurt the Democrats politically (since a Dem governor gets to appoint his replacement and it's not as likely for a GOP candidate to win a special election, but having the perception of protecting him does.

This is what the GOP doesn't seem to get. Trying to get Moore elected makes sense even at the cost of angering moderates, women, etc. but SEATING HIM doesn't considering that if he's not seated, the GOP governor gets to re-instate Strange or some other GOP lapdog, call a new special election and gives them cover nationally from a PR standpoint for not working to protect and seat a sexual predator/pedophile.

[Steve of phpBB]

I was ok with the Cubs acquiring Aroldis Chapman for three months to win a World Series. And I was ok with the Cubs not trying to resign him after. I think this is a similar thing.

Even acknowledging what he "allegedly" did isn't at rampant sexual assault levels, I still hate him on the Yankees. If they released him tomorrow I'd be pretty thrilled even though obviously it weakens the pen.

Cubs Twitter was generally thrilled last year that it wasn't Chapman on the mound for the last out.

[Johnnie]

I've been in training these last few days. This thread is wild.

Also, it reminds me of this scene from The Newsroom.

https://i.imgur.com/N3OBbOa.gif
https://i.imgur.com/VxJVhoe.gif

Moral high grounds seem to be a beautiful vantage point to watch everything burn.

[mister d]

I mean, unless you look at the historical social trending of the country over its history?

[Johnnie]

You mean the one where rich white men are still in power and social change happened because of a severe lack of billionaires owning politicians and the people who were affected assembled and forced change?

[mister d]

Marriage equality is pretty much still a real-time event. Transgender rights are progressing against the fight.

[mister d]

Maybe you guys were right that the Dems need to protect their own and not get in front of this ...

[L-Jam3]

Fuck playing nice. At this point, people need to point out in unambiguous terms that the RNC is supporting a child rapist. I'm going on the counteroffensive anymore on social media and going with outright shaming. Fuck this "when they go low we go high" bullshit. No group ever won rights by playing nice. Scorched motherfucking earth.

And I know in the grand scheme of things, this doesn't really do much. But fuck this. Before 2016 I never voted a straight ticket, and for a long time I was a registered Republican, but more generally was social liberal. I preferred measured change and an active foreign policy. No more. I'll be damned before I ever pull a Republican lever.

A guy who rapes children. That's the easiest thing in the world to condemn. They are supporting him. Fuck them all to hell. They should all go to the White House with the rest of the Cabal of Cunts and recreate fucking Jonestown.

[EnochRoot]

It seems to me that Al Franken should announce that he's taking an extended break for the holidays so that he can go back to his home state of Minnesota to be with friends and family. While there, he should go on a brief Town Hall tour to gauge what his constituents want him to do.

If they say "Resign", then he should go back to Washington and slide a letter of resignation under McTurtleFace's door.

If they say "Continue to do the job we elected you to do", then he should go back to Washington with a renewed mandate, and let the Senate know he's still open to an ethics investigation.

It's important to remember that it was Roger Stone who started the pebble rolling, and now it’s a boulder that will flick Al Franken out of the United States Senate. This is what liberals do, and Stone played it like Machiavelli. The hunger for moral self-righteousness drives them to such acts of self-destruction. Meanwhile, Trump is still in office. Moore will soon be in the Senate. And this is still the same cast of characters who ran a corrupt campaign for a dishonest and bankrupt Hillary Clinton who couldn't beat the weakest candidate in the history of presidential elections.

Circular firing squad...COMMENCE FIRING!

[Pruitt]

Fuck playing nice. At this point, people need to point out in unambiguous terms that the RNC is supporting a child rapist. I'm going on the counteroffensive anymore on social media and going with outright shaming. Fuck this "when they go low we go high" bullshit. No group ever won rights by playing nice. Scorched motherfucking earth.

And I know in the grand scheme of things, this doesn't really do much. But fuck this. Before 2016 I never voted a straight ticket, and for a long time I was a registered Republican, but more generally was social liberal. I preferred measured change and an active foreign policy. No more. I'll be damned before I ever pull a Republican lever.

A guy who rapes children. That's the easiest thing in the world to condemn. They are supporting him. Fuck them all to hell. They should all go to the White House with the rest of the Cabal of Cunts and recreate fucking Jonestown.

It just keeps getting more and more sickening.

And watch the Anderson Cooper interview with Roy Moore's campaign manager. She claims that because he is anti-choice, he is therefore the candidate who is best for young women.

[mister d]

Gingrich isn't lobbying for Franken to be nice or even to cover his own ass. He knows this is a massive open door.

[EnochRoot]

Gingrich isn't lobbying for Franken to be nice or even to cover his own ass. He knows this is a massive open door.

No doubt about that.

Here's John Ziegler bemoaning journalism's role in all of this.