Random Politics

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Avram
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Re: Random Politics

Post by Avram »

EnochRoot wrote: Sat May 19, 2018 2:10 pm
Avram wrote: Thu May 17, 2018 6:53 pm
EnochRoot wrote: Thu May 17, 2018 5:53 pm

Thank you for going to considerable lengths here to explain yourself.

When I said there needs to be an adequate spotlight thrust upon Zionism, I was referring in a broader sense to tribalism (Zionism is the tribe that controls the levers of power here). Humanity's lost out, and it'd appear the endgame playing out is just fine and dandy for those that follow it (Zionism).

I'm so fucking burned out talking about it. Maybe that was the goal all along?
I hate to belabor things but what do mean by "(Zionism is the tribe that controls the levers of power here)" and " Humanity's lost out, and it'd appear the endgame playing out is just fine and dandy for those that follow it (Zionism)."

Are you referring to socalled Christian Zionists who see the presence of Israel as hastening the rapture? If so I understand where you are coming from because that is fundamentalist tripe put forward by a bunch ot idiots and assholes. I don't want anything to do with them.
If this is part of a trope that Jews control the levers of power then that is just anti-Semitic bullshit. I don't mean to be harsh but I am I have heard that crap about Jews controlling this and that for a long time and we all know what the endgame for that is.
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EnochRoot
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Re: Random Politics

Post by EnochRoot »

Avram wrote: Thu May 17, 2018 6:53 pm
EnochRoot wrote: Thu May 17, 2018 5:53 pm

Thank you for going to considerable lengths here to explain yourself.

When I said there needs to be an adequate spotlight thrust upon Zionism, I was referring in a broader sense to tribalism (Zionism is the tribe that controls the levers of power here). Humanity's lost out, and it'd appear the endgame playing out is just fine and dandy for those that follow it (Zionism).

I'm so fucking burned out talking about it. Maybe that was the goal all along?
I hate to belabor things but what do mean by "(Zionism is the tribe that controls the levers of power here)" and " Humanity's lost out, and it'd appear the endgame playing out is just fine and dandy for those that follow it (Zionism)."

Are you referring to socalled Christian Zionists who see the presence of Israel as hastening the rapture? If so I understand where you are coming from because that is fundamentalist tripe put forward by a bunch ot idiots and assholes. I don't want anything to do with them.
If this is part of a trope that Jews control the levers of power then that is just anti-Semitic bullshit. I don't mean to be harsh but I am I have heard that crap about Jews controlling this and that for a long time and we all know what the endgame for that is.
I didn’t say anything about Jews controlling the levers of power. I’m talking about Zionism, and by extension Israel.
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Avram
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Re: Random Politics

Post by Avram »

EnochRoot wrote: Sun May 20, 2018 11:54 am
Avram wrote: Thu May 17, 2018 6:53 pm
EnochRoot wrote: Thu May 17, 2018 5:53 pm

Thank you for going to considerable lengths here to explain yourself.

When I said there needs to be an adequate spotlight thrust upon Zionism, I was referring in a broader sense to tribalism (Zionism is the tribe that controls the levers of power here). Humanity's lost out, and it'd appear the endgame playing out is just fine and dandy for those that follow it (Zionism).

I'm so fucking burned out talking about it. Maybe that was the goal all along?
I hate to belabor things but what do mean by "(Zionism is the tribe that controls the levers of power here)" and " Humanity's lost out, and it'd appear the endgame playing out is just fine and dandy for those that follow it (Zionism)."

Are you referring to socalled Christian Zionists who see the presence of Israel as hastening the rapture? If so I understand where you are coming from because that is fundamentalist tripe put forward by a bunch ot idiots and assholes. I don't want anything to do with them.
If this is part of a trope that Jews control the levers of power then that is just anti-Semitic bullshit. I don't mean to be harsh but I am I have heard that crap about Jews controlling this and that for a long time and we all know what the endgame for that is.
I didn’t say anything about Jews controlling the levers of power. I’m talking about Zionism, and by extension Israel.
It is still unclear what you mean. Whose levers of power? Dp you mean in Israel, because of course Zionists control the levers of power in Israel, Israel is a Majority Jewish country and the vast majority of Jews there believe in Zionism. Do you mean in the USA? Because if you say that Zionists (and the majority of Jews in the USA believe in Zionism) control the levers of power in the USA then by extension you are saying that both Israel and Jews control the lever of power here. Is that what you are saying. Some clarification would help me understand what you are trying to say.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by EnochRoot »

Avram wrote: Sun May 20, 2018 1:40 pm
EnochRoot wrote: Sun May 20, 2018 11:54 am
Avram wrote: Thu May 17, 2018 6:53 pm
EnochRoot wrote: Thu May 17, 2018 5:53 pm

Thank you for going to considerable lengths here to explain yourself.

When I said there needs to be an adequate spotlight thrust upon Zionism, I was referring in a broader sense to tribalism (Zionism is the tribe that controls the levers of power here). Humanity's lost out, and it'd appear the endgame playing out is just fine and dandy for those that follow it (Zionism).

I'm so fucking burned out talking about it. Maybe that was the goal all along?
I hate to belabor things but what do mean by "(Zionism is the tribe that controls the levers of power here)" and " Humanity's lost out, and it'd appear the endgame playing out is just fine and dandy for those that follow it (Zionism)."

Are you referring to socalled Christian Zionists who see the presence of Israel as hastening the rapture? If so I understand where you are coming from because that is fundamentalist tripe put forward by a bunch ot idiots and assholes. I don't want anything to do with them.
If this is part of a trope that Jews control the levers of power then that is just anti-Semitic bullshit. I don't mean to be harsh but I am I have heard that crap about Jews controlling this and that for a long time and we all know what the endgame for that is.
I didn’t say anything about Jews controlling the levers of power. I’m talking about Zionism, and by extension Israel.
It is still unclear what you mean. Whose levers of power? Dp you mean in Israel, because of course Zionists control the levers of power in Israel, Israel is a Majority Jewish country and the vast majority of Jews there believe in Zionism. Do you mean in the USA? Because if you say that Zionists (and the majority of Jews in the USA believe in Zionism) control the levers of power in the USA then by extension you are saying that both Israel and Jews control the lever of power here. Is that what you are saying. Some clarification would help me understand what you are trying to say.
I’d challenge the notion that a majority of Jews in America support Zionism as it’s practiced / defined in Israel. I don’t buy that for a second.
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Avram
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Re: Random Politics

Post by Avram »

EnochRoot wrote: Sun May 20, 2018 4:51 pm
Avram wrote: Sun May 20, 2018 1:40 pm
EnochRoot wrote: Sun May 20, 2018 11:54 am
Avram wrote: Thu May 17, 2018 6:53 pm
EnochRoot wrote: Thu May 17, 2018 5:53 pm

Thank you for going to considerable lengths here to explain yourself.

When I said there needs to be an adequate spotlight thrust upon Zionism, I was referring in a broader sense to tribalism (Zionism is the tribe that controls the levers of power here). Humanity's lost out, and it'd appear the endgame playing out is just fine and dandy for those that follow it (Zionism).

I'm so fucking burned out talking about it. Maybe that was the goal all along?
I hate to belabor things but what do mean by "(Zionism is the tribe that controls the levers of power here)" and " Humanity's lost out, and it'd appear the endgame playing out is just fine and dandy for those that follow it (Zionism)."

Are you referring to socalled Christian Zionists who see the presence of Israel as hastening the rapture? If so I understand where you are coming from because that is fundamentalist tripe put forward by a bunch ot idiots and assholes. I don't want anything to do with them.
If this is part of a trope that Jews control the levers of power then that is just anti-Semitic bullshit. I don't mean to be harsh but I am I have heard that crap about Jews controlling this and that for a long time and we all know what the endgame for that is.
I didn’t say anything about Jews controlling the levers of power. I’m talking about Zionism, and by extension Israel.
It is still unclear what you mean. Whose levers of power? Dp you mean in Israel, because of course Zionists control the levers of power in Israel, Israel is a Majority Jewish country and the vast majority of Jews there believe in Zionism. Do you mean in the USA? Because if you say that Zionists (and the majority of Jews in the USA believe in Zionism) control the levers of power in the USA then by extension you are saying that both Israel and Jews control the lever of power here. Is that what you are saying. Some clarification would help me understand what you are trying to say.
I’d challenge the notion that a majority of Jews in America support Zionism as it’s practiced / defined in Israel. I don’t buy that for a second.
i

As I said, there are different varieties of Zionism. If you mean a Zionism that provides for a Jewish Nation (Israel) in Palestine, then I would argue that the majority of the American Jews support that vigorously. Most American Jews also support a two state solution, believe that the Israeli Capital is Jerusalem and that our embassy should be in West Jerusalem (where it is now) as there is no possible peace treaty that doesn't have Israel controlling West Jerusalem.
Most American Jews do not support annexation of the West Bank, and beleiev the Palestinian state should be in the West Bank. As far as how Israel defines it, that depends on who you speak to and what the government wants.

You still didn't answer my question, or clarify your previous statements about who controls which levers of power. I'm still waiting for your response.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by EnochRoot »

I’m talking about the levers of power controlling the fate of the Palestinians. I’m talking about a subjugated people. I’m talking as an agnostic when I find Zionism to be yet sanctimony perpetuated on humanity and I view Israel as a theocracy. You can rationalize it by suggesting some short term influence by ultra orthodox this or that, but I have no fucks to give about the inner workings of a religion. I’m too biased to have any left when the hand of man is once again conflated as the word of god. I’m so tired of that crap playing out everywhere you look.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by Joe K »

Not to derail this back and forth but I find it very frustrating when acts of violence and economic subjugation towards Palestine are justified on the grounds that Hamas and/or the Palestinian people do not support the existence of the state of Israel. Does anyone still think that Netanyahu or his government actually supports a two-State solution? They wouldn’t be carving up the West Bamk with new settlements if that were the case. Given the obvious unwillingness of Israel’s government to allow a viable Palestinian State, why wouldn’t Palestinians find a single, majority Arab state to be an appealing option? Give them the prospect of a real two-state solution, and not just an open air prison like Gaza, and I bet you’d see attitudes towards the existence of Israel change quite a bit.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by Avram »

EnochRoot wrote: Mon May 21, 2018 7:17 am I’m talking about the levers of power controlling the fate of the Palestinians. I’m talking about a subjugated people. I’m talking as an agnostic when I find Zionism to be yet sanctimony perpetuated on humanity and I view Israel as a theocracy. You can rationalize it by suggesting some short term influence by ultra orthodox this or that, but I have no fucks to give about the inner workings of a religion. I’m too biased to have any left when the hand of man is once again conflated as the word of god. I’m so tired of that crap playing out everywhere you look.
Thank you for your clarification. I have some sympathy for your view; however, the Palestinians walked away more than once from reasonable peace offers (in 2000 at the end of Clinton's presidency and in the aughts when Olmert was PM). I think the Israeli government is short-sighted, and many in Likud do not believe in a two-state soluntion; although the majority of Israelis do. And although the relgious parties have control over some aspects of civil life (marriages, conversions, etc) something that dates back to law under the Mandate and agrements made at the founding of the state,it is not a theocracy in the sense that Iran or other ME states are.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by Avram »

Joe K wrote: Mon May 21, 2018 7:48 am Not to derail this back and forth but I find it very frustrating when acts of violence and economic subjugation towards Palestine are justified on the grounds that Hamas and/or the Palestinian people do not support the existence of the state of Israel. Does anyone still think that Netanyahu or his government actually supports a two-State solution? They wouldn’t be carving up the West Bamk with new settlements if that were the case. Given the obvious unwillingness of Israel’s government to allow a viable Palestinian State, why wouldn’t Palestinians find a single, majority Arab state to be an appealing option? Give them the prospect of a real two-state solution, and not just an open air prison like Gaza, and I bet you’d see attitudes towards the existence of Israel change quite a bit.
I don't think Bibi. believes in a two state solution. OTOH, neither does the Palestinian leadership. I agrfee a one state solution is the end of Israel. The leadership on both sides needs to change, but that isn't happening. And Trump's clumsy fractured diplomacy doesn't help.
BTW, it was the US ambassador to Israel who invited that bigot preacher to the opening of the Embassy.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by Johnnie »

Fuck this guy.



Ah, yes. Designed to go after your family. Fucker.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by Brontoburglar »

he was clearly concerned for his family when he stuck his d in his hairdresser's mouth
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Re: Random Politics

Post by Johnnie »

Sam Bee called Ivanka a cunt and America gets mad!

Ivanka gets approved for Chinese trademarks which has clear ethics questions involved and no one bats an eye!

This is why America is trash. Words that hurt feelings take precedence over possible violations. Fucking pathetic.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by Pruitt »

Johnnie wrote: Thu May 31, 2018 2:45 pm Sam Bee called Ivanka a cunt and America gets mad!

Ivanka gets approved for Chinese trademarks which has clear ethics questions involved and no one bats an eye!

This is why America is trash. Words that hurt feelings take precedence over possible violations. Fucking pathetic.
Also - TV comic says "cunt" is easier to understand than trademarks.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by Johnnie »

Because Americans are stupid.

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Re: Random Politics

Post by DaveInSeattle »

Pruitt wrote: Thu May 31, 2018 4:12 pm
Johnnie wrote: Thu May 31, 2018 2:45 pm Sam Bee called Ivanka a cunt and America gets mad!

Ivanka gets approved for Chinese trademarks which has clear ethics questions involved and no one bats an eye!

This is why America is trash. Words that hurt feelings take precedence over possible violations. Fucking pathetic.
Also - TV comic says "cunt" is easier to understand than trademarks.
Hang on...so the offensive word was bleeped out when the show aired? And the crowd that were wearing shirts during the Election 2016 run-up saying 'fuck your feelings' are all butt-hurt? About a bleeped out word? Fuck the heck?
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Re: Random Politics

Post by mister d »

Might be a reach, but what if they’re being disingenuous?
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Re: Random Politics

Post by Pruitt »

DaveInSeattle wrote: Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:36 pm
Pruitt wrote: Thu May 31, 2018 4:12 pm
Johnnie wrote: Thu May 31, 2018 2:45 pm Sam Bee called Ivanka a cunt and America gets mad!

Ivanka gets approved for Chinese trademarks which has clear ethics questions involved and no one bats an eye!

This is why America is trash. Words that hurt feelings take precedence over possible violations. Fucking pathetic.
Also - TV comic says "cunt" is easier to understand than trademarks.
Hang on...so the offensive word was bleeped out when the show aired? And the crowd that were wearing shirts during the Election 2016 run-up saying 'fuck your feelings' are all butt-hurt? About a bleeped out word? Fuck the heck?
Honestly - fuck all of them. Every single one of them.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by Joe K »

Hey guys, remember our speculation as to whether Romney would run as an anti-Trump Republican?



Nice reminder that tax cuts for the wealthy is *the* issue that the GOP cares about. Once Trump did that he had every major Republican’s support locked up.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by Johnnie »

Yuuuuuppppp....

And you couple that with what Elizabeth Warren said...
“Until we have all of the Democrats who are willing to take on the billionaire class, until we have all of the Democrats who are willing to fight for the American people and not for a handful of billionaires and giant corporations, then it’s going to stay an uphill fight."
Because, friendly reminder, 16 democrats joined all Republicans on the Economic Growth, Regulatory Relief, and Consumer Protection Act

Here Are the Democrats Who Just Voted to Sell You Out to Wall Street

Oooh, Tim Kaine...$921,903! What a progressive.

Things like this remind me that Democrats are comparatively better than Republicans, but they still don't give a fuck about people like me.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by Joe K »

The Democratic Party, with a few notable exceptions like Warren, sure seems to be making the bet that Trump’s unpopularity and fear of Putin will be enough to win in 2018 and 2020, without any meaningful policy initiatives. The DNC has consistently backed corporatist candidates over bolder progressives—to the point of directing candidates not to use the word “single payer” in their adds. The DNC is also now trying to establish a “Bernie Sanders Rule” to explicitly prohibit a non-registered Democrat from being the party’s 2020 nominee. I think this is a huge gamble given that the GOP support is rapidly coalescing around Trump and the odds of any significant cross-over voting in 2018 or 2020 is miniscule.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by Johnnie »

Well, so what you're saying is that my certificate of retirement will more than likely have Donald Trump's signature on it. Neat.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by Avram »

If D's run on Trump this fall they will ;lose

If they run on health care they will win

Any Democratic congressional candidate who doesn't make health care the #1 issue is a fool. I fear the one in my district is one
her top 3 issues are cybersecurity, something not health care , education
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Re: Random Politics

Post by sancarlos »

Avram wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:58 pm If D's run on Trump this fall they will ;lose

If they run on health care they will win

Any Democratic congressional candidate who doesn't make health care the #1 issue is a fool. I fear the one in my district is one
her top 3 issues are cybersecurity, something not health care , education
The other big thing is “get the non-white voters to the polls”.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by degenerasian »

sancarlos wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:05 pm
Avram wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:58 pm If D's run on Trump this fall they will ;lose

If they run on health care they will win

Any Democratic congressional candidate who doesn't make health care the #1 issue is a fool. I fear the one in my district is one
her top 3 issues are cybersecurity, something not health care , education
The other big thing is “get the non-white voters to the polls”.
And get kids to the polls. 18-25.

Healthcare is such a slam dunk but the Democrats can't decide what type of healthcare they want? Single payer? Obamacare? something else?
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Re: Random Politics

Post by Avram »

degenerasian wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:15 pm
sancarlos wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:05 pm
Avram wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:58 pm If D's run on Trump this fall they will ;lose

If they run on health care they will win

Any Democratic congressional candidate who doesn't make health care the #1 issue is a fool. I fear the one in my district is one
her top 3 issues are cybersecurity, something not health care , education
The other big thing is “get the non-white voters to the polls”.
And get kids to the polls. 18-25.

Healthcare is such a slam dunk but the Democrats can't decide what type of healthcare they want? Single payer? Obamacare? something else?
Even if they just run on "preserve the ACA so Trump doesn't gut it" will be a winner
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Re: Random Politics

Post by degenerasian »

Avram wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:07 am
degenerasian wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:15 pm
sancarlos wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:05 pm
Avram wrote: Sun Jun 10, 2018 2:58 pm If D's run on Trump this fall they will ;lose

If they run on health care they will win

Any Democratic congressional candidate who doesn't make health care the #1 issue is a fool. I fear the one in my district is one
her top 3 issues are cybersecurity, something not health care , education
The other big thing is “get the non-white voters to the polls”.
And get kids to the polls. 18-25.

Healthcare is such a slam dunk but the Democrats can't decide what type of healthcare they want? Single payer? Obamacare? something else?
Even if they just run on "preserve the ACA so Trump doesn't gut it" will be a winner
Do they want to preserve any of it is the question. The health care debate is such a tough one. And Obamacare really confuses the issue. The few people that it actually helped do love it, but almost everyone else from both political affiliations despise it. There are a lot of people who were legitimately harmed by Obamacare, and there are a lot of people who think they were harmed, but probably weren't.

Is just saving ACA a winning strategy?
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Re: Random Politics

Post by brian »

Trump has basically already gutted the ACA, so I'm not sure it matters. The winning strategy is to point out the ACA vandalism and not delve too deeply into the details at this point. Nothing's changing without flipping the White House anyway.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by P.D.X. »

degenerasian wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:20 pm almost everyone else from both political affiliations despise it. There are a lot of people who were legitimately harmed by Obamacare
k
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Re: Random Politics

Post by brian »

P.D.X. wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:36 pm
degenerasian wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:20 pm almost everyone else from both political affiliations despise it. There are a lot of people who were legitimately harmed by Obamacare
k
Yeah, nothing like being lectured by a Canadian on how our political system works. (The ACA's approval rating before the GOP's vandalism last year stood between 53 and 55 percent.)
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Re: Random Politics

Post by degenerasian »

What's that got to do with anything?
If you guys researched and talked about Canadian Dairy I'd listen.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by brian »

degenerasian wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:43 pm What's that got to do with anything?
If you guys researched and talked about Canadian Dairy I'd listen.
OK, what group of people were "legitimately harmed" by the ACA? I'll hang up and listen.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by BSF21 »

brian wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:44 pm
degenerasian wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:43 pm What's that got to do with anything?
If you guys researched and talked about Canadian Dairy I'd listen.
OK, what group of people were "legitimately harmed" by the ACA? I'll hang up and listen.
I think mostly the people that couldn't afford it, were told it was going to be covered by subsidy and not to worry, and then still couldn't afford it and were told they were in violation of the law for not having it.

I don't fall on either side of the issue, but for some people living pretty hand to mouth, it's a tough pill to swallow when your government says you have to have health insurance or you'll be fined.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by degenerasian »

brian wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:44 pm
degenerasian wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:43 pm What's that got to do with anything?
If you guys researched and talked about Canadian Dairy I'd listen.
OK, what group of people were "legitimately harmed" by the ACA? I'll hang up and listen.
People whose policies they liked got cancelled, individual policies that didn't meet the new requirements. And the new policies they were offered were more expensive. Self-employed people for example. Or it hurt small companies who had to change policies.

Promises to keep your plan, your doctor and lowering your cost weren't always the case.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by brian »

BSF21 wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:53 pm
brian wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:44 pm
degenerasian wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:43 pm What's that got to do with anything?
If you guys researched and talked about Canadian Dairy I'd listen.
OK, what group of people were "legitimately harmed" by the ACA? I'll hang up and listen.
I think mostly the people that couldn't afford it, were told it was going to be covered by subsidy and not to worry, and then still couldn't afford it and were told they were in violation of the law for not having it.

I don't fall on either side of the issue, but for some people living pretty hand to mouth, it's a tough pill to swallow when your government says you have to have health insurance or you'll be fined.
Subsidies for the ACA ran to 400 percent of the poverty level (depending on factors like how many kids you had, etc.) so I can't imagine there were too many people that were harmed too badly. Most of the people complaining were people who were paying nothing for insurance and had no insurance, but under the ACA had to have insurance or incur the fine. But the operative difference between those two scenarios is that in the latter you actually, you know, had health insurance. I think the fines for not having insurance maxed out at something like 1.5 of net income so if you were dead set against having insurance for some reason you still didn't have to pay that much.

The point isn't that the ACA was/is perfect. Degen has an annoying way of taking these complex issues and boiling them down to the most banal aspects of them, which is annoying enough when Americans do it, so it's especially so when someone who doesn't live in the US does it. My two cents.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by degenerasian »

brian wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:59 pm
BSF21 wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:53 pm
brian wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:44 pm
degenerasian wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:43 pm What's that got to do with anything?
If you guys researched and talked about Canadian Dairy I'd listen.
OK, what group of people were "legitimately harmed" by the ACA? I'll hang up and listen.
I think mostly the people that couldn't afford it, were told it was going to be covered by subsidy and not to worry, and then still couldn't afford it and were told they were in violation of the law for not having it.

I don't fall on either side of the issue, but for some people living pretty hand to mouth, it's a tough pill to swallow when your government says you have to have health insurance or you'll be fined.
Subsidies for the ACA ran to 400 percent of the poverty level (depending on factors like how many kids you had, etc.) so I can't imagine there were too many people that were harmed too badly. Most of the people complaining were people who were paying nothing for insurance and had no insurance, but under the ACA had to have insurance or incur the fine. But the operative difference between those two scenarios is that in the latter you actually, you know, had health insurance. I think the fines for not having insurance maxed out at something like 1.5 of net income so if you were dead set against having insurance for some reason you still didn't have to pay that much.

The point isn't that the ACA was/is perfect. Degen has an annoying way of taking these complex issues and boiling them down to the most banal aspects of them, which is annoying enough when Americans do it, so it's especially so when someone who doesn't live in the US does it. My two cents.

sorry about that i did say it was complex and this is why it's not so easy for Democrats to just campaign on healthcare. They have to agree on what type of healthcare? The Bernie side will bring up Obamacare as the counter "obamacare isn't enough" to their proposed universal healthcare program.

on the republican side it's easy. healthcare is private.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by brian »

degenerasian wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:12 pm
brian wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:59 pm
BSF21 wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:53 pm
brian wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:44 pm
degenerasian wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:43 pm What's that got to do with anything?
If you guys researched and talked about Canadian Dairy I'd listen.
OK, what group of people were "legitimately harmed" by the ACA? I'll hang up and listen.
I think mostly the people that couldn't afford it, were told it was going to be covered by subsidy and not to worry, and then still couldn't afford it and were told they were in violation of the law for not having it.

I don't fall on either side of the issue, but for some people living pretty hand to mouth, it's a tough pill to swallow when your government says you have to have health insurance or you'll be fined.
Subsidies for the ACA ran to 400 percent of the poverty level (depending on factors like how many kids you had, etc.) so I can't imagine there were too many people that were harmed too badly. Most of the people complaining were people who were paying nothing for insurance and had no insurance, but under the ACA had to have insurance or incur the fine. But the operative difference between those two scenarios is that in the latter you actually, you know, had health insurance. I think the fines for not having insurance maxed out at something like 1.5 of net income so if you were dead set against having insurance for some reason you still didn't have to pay that much.

The point isn't that the ACA was/is perfect. Degen has an annoying way of taking these complex issues and boiling them down to the most banal aspects of them, which is annoying enough when Americans do it, so it's especially so when someone who doesn't live in the US does it. My two cents.

sorry about that i did say it was complex and this is why it's not so easy for Democrats to just campaign on healthcare. They have to agree on what type of healthcare? The Bernie side will bring up Obamacare as the counter "obamacare isn't enough" to their proposed universal healthcare program.

on the republican side it's easy. healthcare is private.
And again, you're wrong. The ACA came from Republican think tanks and was implemented in a blue state by a Republican governor (Massachusetts/Romney) and was the centerpiece of the GOP platform in 1996 when Dole was the nominee.

If it had been passed by a Republican congress and a Republican president it would be as if it were handed down from Mount Rushmore by Saint Reagan. As recently as 2007, there were plenty of Republicans agitating to implement almost exactly what the ACA would become. The anti-Obama fervor amongst the prion-disease ridden Fox News trolls meant that it never had a chance. If Obama approved of it, it must be bad.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by BSF21 »

brian wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:59 pm
BSF21 wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:53 pm
brian wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:44 pm
degenerasian wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:43 pm What's that got to do with anything?
If you guys researched and talked about Canadian Dairy I'd listen.
OK, what group of people were "legitimately harmed" by the ACA? I'll hang up and listen.
I think mostly the people that couldn't afford it, were told it was going to be covered by subsidy and not to worry, and then still couldn't afford it and were told they were in violation of the law for not having it.

I don't fall on either side of the issue, but for some people living pretty hand to mouth, it's a tough pill to swallow when your government says you have to have health insurance or you'll be fined.
Subsidies for the ACA ran to 400 percent of the poverty level (depending on factors like how many kids you had, etc.) so I can't imagine there were too many people that were harmed too badly. Most of the people complaining were people who were paying nothing for insurance and had no insurance, but under the ACA had to have insurance or incur the fine. But the operative difference between those two scenarios is that in the latter you actually, you know, had health insurance. I think the fines for not having insurance maxed out at something like 1.5 of net income so if you were dead set against having insurance for some reason you still didn't have to pay that much.

The point isn't that the ACA was/is perfect. Degen has an annoying way of taking these complex issues and boiling them down to the most banal aspects of them, which is annoying enough when Americans do it, so it's especially so when someone who doesn't live in the US does it. My two cents.
Again, not taking sides. The subsidies were bullshit. I had to help my sister and my now wife through them. It was a terrible implementation of a great idea. I'll attest to one thing, you may have "you know, had health insurance", but you fucking didn't. The plans were awful and provided minimal coverage outside of catastrophe. No one who is 27 gives a shit about that when you're trying to pay off loans and have a place to live and live a normal life and now the Gov't is forcing you into another 80$/mo AND killing your tax return because of the "subsidies".

I wasn't the target, and most of us here weren't. But I can see why people thought it was shitty. Health Insurance as a concept is BROKEN. No Dem or GOP plan is going to fix that. Insurance runs the world.
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Re: Random Politics

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That's fine. That's a fair concrete example of someone who was "hurt" by it I suppose, but I still maintain it helped countless more than those who might have disliked it. The elimination of being able to be turned down for insurance at any cost because of pre-existing conditions might have saved tens of thousands of lives alone. It's moot at this point anyway since the ACA is DOA. Maybe in the long run it'll be worth it if it ends up that single-payer comes out of all this bullshit, but as usual as a country our priorities are all out of wack. We should be able to easily afford health care for everyone, but the priority is more bombs, more bullets, more tax cuts for the rich. So fuck it.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by Avram »

prior to the ACA over 50% of bankruptcies were due to medical costs. That dropped dramatically. There is no question that it is an imperfect solution, but it got tens of millions covered for something. Personally, I believe in single payer, preferably by Medicare, and mandatory for all. I believe (as the vast majority of the population does) that health care is a right, but one thing that has to be done to make the cost managable is to make everyone get coverage. That is if you want preexisting conditions covered, and not have people with bad diseases priced out of the market (as it was before the ACA).
The reason I say under Medicare is that the overhead is lower and premiums aren't going to insurance company CEOs and shareholders. The free marketvdoesn't work for health care. There are a lot of places costs could be cut. Insurance company overhead is one of them.
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Re: Random Politics

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brian wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:16 pm That's fine. That's a fair concrete example of someone who was "hurt" by it I suppose, but I still maintain it helped countless more than those who might have disliked it. The elimination of being able to be turned down for insurance at any cost because of pre-existing conditions might have saved tens of thousands of lives alone. It's moot at this point anyway since the ACA is DOA. Maybe in the long run it'll be worth it if it ends up that single-payer comes out of all this bullshit, but as usual as a country our priorities are all out of wack. We should be able to easily afford health care for everyone, but the priority is more bombs, more bullets, more tax cuts for the rich. So fuck it.
I very much agree with all of the above. Same side here, but I've still got reservations about the government requiring me to have a health plan in the way it was implemented.

I think moreover that I'm soured too because most people I know work for a fairly large entity, and thus have no problems or issues with this. My company is 2 people. It's impossible to get insurance that doesn't just fuck you right up the ass. I can't say for certain and I'd like to check the numbers again, but I'm fairly sure to cover myself and Brad + spouse last year it was north of 38K. 13 thousand dollars per person per year. For minimal coverage. I understand that doesn't dent a cancer treatment or a major car accident, but that sure as shit covers 2 doctors visits for a head cold per year. That's where I get chapped. The individual or small business has zero power and just gets bent over, where the Fortune 500 companies are basically paid to provide their workers insurance because those are the accounts that are valuable and the insurance companies can collect more deductible/OOP expenses from.
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