Random Politics

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tennbengal
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Re: Random Politics

Post by tennbengal »

brian wrote:I still want it explained to me how Democrats are somehow going to start scoring own goals against themselves based on fake videos by discredited sleaze merchants like O'Keefe.


Because the right wing noise machine can turn nothings (Sam Seder firing over literally nothing) into something (even if it's based on lies).
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Re: Random Politics

Post by Jerloma »

degenerasian wrote:
mister d wrote:Are you implying that back then they did have higher active morals or that the present day party doesn't still take the moral high road?


They took the moral high road back. Wasn't it called the Moral Majority back in the 80s? Sure that might have have been bullshit knowing what we know now but today they don't even try to hide it supporting Moore.


The Moral Majority was a movement created by Jerry Falwell when Reagan decided to get in bed with the evangelicals in 1980. Here are some of Falwell's greatest hits. Tell me if any of this sounds familiar...

"AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals."

"The abortionists have got to bear some burden for [the attacks of Sept. 11] because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way -- all of them who have tried to secularize America -- I point the finger in their face and say, 'You helped this happen.'"

"If you're not a born-again Christian, you're a failure as a human being."

"Christians, like slaves and soldiers, ask no questions."

"I listen to feminists and all these radical gals -- most of them are failures. They've blown it. Some of them have been married, but they married some Casper Milquetoast who asked permission to go to the bathroom. These women just need a man in the house. That's all they need. Most of the feminists need a man to tell them what time of day it is and to lead them home. And they blew it and they're mad at all men. Feminists hate men. They're sexist. They hate men -- that's their problem."

"When you have a godly husband, a godly wife, children who respect their parents and who are loved by their parents, who provide for those children their physical and spiritual and material needs, lovingly, you have the ideal unit."

"The ACLU is to Christians what the American Nazi party is to Jews."

"I am saying pornography hurts anyone who reads it -- garbage in, garbage out."

"I am such a strong admirer and supporter of George W. Bush that if he suggested eliminating the income tax or doubling it, I would vote yes on first blush."

"I believe that global warming is a myth. And so, therefore, I have no conscience problems at all and I'm going to buy a Suburban next time."

"It is God's planet -- and he's taking care of it. And I don't believe that anything we do will raise or lower the temperature one point."

"I truly cannot imagine men with men, women with women, doing what they were not physically created to do, without abnormal stress and misbehavior."

"It appears that America's anti-Biblical feminist movement is at last dying, thank God, and is possibly being replaced by a Christ-centered men's movement which may become the foundation for a desperately needed national spiritual awakening."

"There's been a concerted effort to steal Christmas."

"I hope I live to see the day when, as in the early days of our country, we won't have any public schools. The churches will have taken them over again and Christians will be running them. What a happy day that will be!"

"The First Amendment is not without limits."

"Someone must not be afraid to say, 'moral perversion is wrong.' If we do not act now, homosexuals will 'own' America! If you and I do not speak up now, this homosexual steamroller will literally crush all decent men, women, and children who get in its way ... and our nation will pay a terrible price!"

"If he's going to be the counterfeit of Christ, [the Antichrist] has to be Jewish. The only thing we know is he must be male and Jewish."

"The argument that making contraceptives available to young people would prevent teen pregnancies is ridiculous. That's like offering a cookbook as a cure to people who are trying to lose weight."

"The whole global warming thing is created to destroy America's free enterprise system and our economic stability."

"You'll be riding along in an automobile. You'll be the driver perhaps. You're a Christian. There'll be several people in the automobile with you, maybe someone who is not a Christian. When the trumpet sounds you and the other born-again believers in that automobile will be instantly caught away -- you will disappear, leaving behind only your clothes and physical things that cannot inherit eternal life. That unsaved person or persons in the automobile will suddenly be startled to find the car suddenly somewhere crashes. ... Other cars on the highway driven by believers will suddenly be out of control and stark pandemonium will occur on ... every highway in the world where Christians are caught away from the drivers wheel." (from Falwell's pamphlet "Nuclear War and the Second Coming of Christ")

"God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve."

"You know when I see somebody burning the flag, I'm a Baptist preacher I'm not a Mennonite, I feel it's my obligation to whip him. In the name of the Lord, of course. I feel it's my obligation to whip him, and if I can't do it then I look up some of my athletes to help me. But, as long as at 72 I can handle most of the jobs I do it myself, and I don't think it's un-spiritual. When I, when I, when I hear somebody talking about our military and ridiculing and saying terrible things about our President, I'm thinking you know just a little bit of that and I believe the Lord would forgive me if I popped him."

"The Bible is the inerrant ... word of the living God. It is absolutely infallible, without error in all matters pertaining to faith and practice, as well as in areas such as geography, science, history, etcetera."

"The National Organization for Women (NOW) is the National Order of Witches."

"God doesn't listen to Jews."

And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness. - God
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Re: Random Politics

Post by Giff »

brian wrote:I think the other point that no one else has made here is that it's kind of silly and ridiculous for us as men to sit here and argue and debate this since we've never lived it a day in our lives.

My sense is that women -- ALL women -- see this #metoo movement as exceptionally liberating and the idea that we should be deciding who gets to stay and who gets to go based on our experiences as men is pretty stupid. Maybe it's time to actually listen to what they're staying.


Well, my wife feels this same exact way about the #metoo movement as you described said to me this morning "why the fuck is Franken resigning if Trump's not?" She hates Trump above all else, though.

I'll go with my gut instead of arguing on here and when I saw the NPR breaking news alert yesterday saying he's going to resign, I was happy to read it. Cut to this morning as I'm watching that dickface we call a POTUS igniting flames in the ME while Roy Moore is cruising to a victory and I'm back to pissed off. I'm just fucking frustrated and have people very close to me who are going to be fucked if this tax bill becomes law, so I the feeling they're getting a free pass pissing me the fuck off. Hopefully this just unleashes a wave as many of you smarter than me have predicted.

Fuck.
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mister d
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Re: Random Politics

Post by mister d »

I'm guessing your wife is as left as you are an already a Franken fan. My mom is the same way, not wanting him to resign for the same "if they aren't" logic. Those people aren't leaving for the right any time soon and those aren't the ones who this is speaking to.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by The Sybian »

brian wrote:I still want it explained to me how Democrats are somehow going to start scoring own goals against themselves based on fake videos by discredited sleaze merchants like O'Keefe.


The same way ACORN was shut down by fake O'Keefe videos. By the time it was proven he faked the evidence, the damage was done. After railing against ACORN for months, when the videos and allegations were proven false, Fox et al never reported that, and still hold ACORN out as a symbol of Dem corruption. Or Shirley Sherrod, the USDA official fired because of an edited video of a comment taken out of context by Breitbart. If the Dems turn on accused Dems, it encourages Right Wing Operatives to make fake claims. I mentioned O'Keefe, because he was just caught staging a fake accuser against Moore, hoping the Washington Post would report her fake allegations, and they could "prove" the Post was publishing fake allegations against Moore.

So my point is today, Franken was pressured to resign. Yes, he did what he was accused of. Yes, it was wrong and gross. Does it warrant resigning from Congress? Maybe, I'm not going to debate that in this post. Let's say next month, an allegation comes out against another Democratic Congressman, and the Congressman denies the allegation? How will we know if he is a lying scumbag, or if the allegation is fake? What if he was married and had a consensual sexual affair, and the scorned woman now claims it was harassment? What if there is very damning video of the Congressman seemingly harassing the woman? I think it is very reasonable to think this could happen, the Dems call on the Congressman to resign, and we later learn the video was creatively edited or staged by a guy like O'Keefe.

I don't want to see the Dems go Full GOP and protect every Member at all costs. If Moore was a Dem, I couldn't stand to watch the DNC support and fund that person. I never want to see Anthony Weiner ever again, yet David Vitter kept his seat, Newt Kept his seat and is still prominent on Fox as a moral arbiter. Conyers had to go, he abused his office. Franken??? Not so sure. He was a comedian on a USO Tour in a war zone, and posed for a childish fratboy picture. Was it wrong? Absolutely, inexcusable. Does it warrant resigning from Congress? Look at the long list of crimes and moral shortcomings of GOP Congressmen who were never called on to step down. Franken's acts are so far below Moore and Trump's on the legal and moral wrongdoings scale. Do I want to see the Dems hold themselves to a higher standard? Yes, but at what cost?

Clinton was impeached for lying about getting a blow job from a consensual adult. The moral outrage brigade was led by Gingrich and David Vitter. Two wholesome Family Values Christians, who couldn't stand by and let the married President commit the sin of adultery. Meanwhile, Gingrich is fucking his soon-to-be third wife while still married to second wife, and eventually divorces her on her deathbed so he doesn't have to coverup his mistress anymore, and David Vitter is a regular customer fucking whores supplied by the DC Madam. Vitter publicly humiliates his wife at a press conference, making her say she forgive him, he says he spoke to Jesus, and Jesus forgave him, and he continues on in office, claiming the Family Values mantle, stepping on Gay Rights, because SIN!
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mister d
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Re: Random Politics

Post by mister d »

Buddy, you've got to start breaking these up.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by mister d »

And while I agree with most everything you wrote there, I don't think this one is ever turning back around and being on time drawing the then/now line could end up extremely important.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by Joe K »

Sherrod was fired by a Democratic President. And Congressional Democrats voted to defund ACORN. Seems to me that Dems can and should take seriously credible and/or substantiated allegations without jumping the gun on O'Keefe schemes.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by tennbengal »

Buying Team Syb gear.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by brian »

Also Sam Seder was un-fired today.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by tennbengal »

brian wrote:Also Sam Seder was un-fired today.


Well that's a start. But that he was fired in the first place was ludicrous - and wholly engineered by Mike Cernovich. Over nothing.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by brian »

I don’t necessarily disagree with Syb but I would rather fight the battles worth fighting than tying myself up in knots trying to explain or defend Franken’s behavior. If it was just the Tweeden thing I could get on board with going to battle defending him. As it stands I think being on the right side of this movement is going to pay more dividends than digging in and stooping to the GOP’s level. If I’m wrong then we’re probably inexorably fucked anyway.
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Steve of phpBB
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Re: Random Politics

Post by Steve of phpBB »

tennbengal wrote:
brian wrote:Also Sam Seder was un-fired today.


Well that's a start. But that he was fired in the first place was ludicrous - and wholly engineered by Mike Cernovich. Over nothing.


The Dems and Left are learning, though slowly. They won't get taken in by O'Keefe again after the Washington Post thing.

It took Franken weeks to resign. And Clinton never did (and cost Gore the 2000 election probably). So I don't see how a Democratic senator is going to be forced out hastily.

Hell, Menendez is still there, and he went through a trial.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by brian »

Regardless of what you want to believe, remember that the GOP is still WAY more divided about Moore than the Democrats about anything. It's been kept under wraps for the most part, but they're really going at it about the RNC's move to assign money and resources back to Moore's campaign. He might well win Alabama, but assist in the GOP losing the war nationally. There's not as many moderate Republicans as there used to be, but the ones there are in purple states are not happy. (Seeing this in Nevada personally -- they've pretty much given up on having any chance on winning NV in 2020 as well as assuming Heller is going to get stomped in November.)
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Re: Random Politics

Post by Nonlinear FC »

brian wrote:I think the other point that no one else has made here is that it's kind of silly and ridiculous for us as men to sit here and argue and debate this since we've never lived it a day in our lives.

My sense is that women -- ALL women -- see this #metoo movement as exceptionally liberating and the idea that we should be deciding who gets to stay and who gets to go based on our experiences as men is pretty stupid. Maybe it's time to actually listen to what they're staying.



Oh, fuck of you SJW White Knight!

(I am FULLY on board with Team Bri-Del as I'm catching up today. Glad I didn't have to type a bunch of stuff because you two had it covered.)
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Re: Random Politics

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The Sybian wrote:
brian wrote: Franken??? Not so sure. He was a comedian on a USO Tour in a war zone, and posed for a childish fratboy picture. Was it wrong? Absolutely, inexcusable. Does it warrant resigning from Congress? Look at the long list of crimes and moral shortcomings of GOP Congressmen who were never called on to step down. Franken's acts are so far below Moore and Trump's on the legal and moral wrongdoings scale. Do I want to see the Dems hold themselves to a higher standard? Yes, but at what cost?

Clinton was impeached for lying about getting a blow job from a consensual adult.


I respect you. I often agree with you. These two points speak to what brian was saying about a bunch of dudes trying to hash this out.

1) He's not resigning because of Leann Tweeden. If that's all that ever came out, the vast majority of Dems would not have been in favor of him stepping down. There have now been over half a dozen women to come forward and say that he did inappropriate things, some of them while he was in office. Between Enoch posting an article from Nov. 14 and this, I'm beginning to wonder if folks are selectively reading the news on Franken. It's not on par with allegations against Moore and Trump. It is definitely enough for him to need to go.

We can argue all day about the difference of opinion on protecting our own at pretty much all costs. But let's not try to diminish what Franken did to further the point. This isn't a "lynching" as I saw written earlier. There are multiple damning and credible accusations here. Not one sketchy one made by a RW radio host.

2) Hoo boy on the Clinton stuff. The power dynamics at play in that situation are horrendous. I totally get what you're saying in terms of the context. But a LOT of people, particularly women, are looking back at Clinton and feeling a lot of remorse for not saying how fucked up that situation was. Not about Hillary, but the fact that a person in that position thought it was OK to be fucking around with a young, gullible, intern. It was gross.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by Johnnie »

I'm Team Syb. This shit is fucking ridiculous. You're gonna cut off the head of one of your best senators to win a game no one else is playing? The Robb Stark-iness of this makes me laugh.

Roger Stone has played the democrats again. (There were tweets that he engineered this bamboozle.) The GOP wins again. And for what? To have moral superiority in politics. Hilarious. Unless the democrats build them a version of Roger Stone that's going to find the gay men the Republican establishment has been secretly fucking, then this was atrocious decision making.

I'm wondering what everyone's feelings would have been if the Minnesota governor was a Republican. I'm tired of seeing "Whatever, we'll still have the seat!" as if that's a win. Right, because his replacement will take on Comcast, tell a Supreme Court Justice nominee to his face that his lower court decision was absurd, and get the Attorney General to slip up and lie under oath.

Gimme a break. The Democrats are pussified know-it-alls that nobody likes. Even when you're right, you're wrong.

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Re: Random Politics

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Nonlinear FC wrote:
The Sybian wrote:
brian wrote: Franken??? Not so sure. He was a comedian on a USO Tour in a war zone, and posed for a childish fratboy picture. Was it wrong? Absolutely, inexcusable. Does it warrant resigning from Congress? Look at the long list of crimes and moral shortcomings of GOP Congressmen who were never called on to step down. Franken's acts are so far below Moore and Trump's on the legal and moral wrongdoings scale. Do I want to see the Dems hold themselves to a higher standard? Yes, but at what cost?

Clinton was impeached for lying about getting a blow job from a consensual adult.


I respect you. I often agree with you. These two points speak to what brian was saying about a bunch of dudes trying to hash this out.

1) He's not resigning because of Leann Tweeden. If that's all that ever came out, the vast majority of Dems would not have been in favor of him stepping down. There have now been over half a dozen women to come forward and say that he did inappropriate things, some of them while he was in office. Between Enoch posting an article from Nov. 14 and this, I'm beginning to wonder if folks are selectively reading the news on Franken. It's not on par with allegations against Moore and Trump. It is definitely enough for him to need to go.

We can argue all day about the difference of opinion on protecting our own at pretty much all costs. But let's not try to diminish what Franken did to further the point. This isn't a "lynching" as I saw written earlier. There are multiple damning and credible accusations here. Not one sketchy one made by a RW radio host.

2) Hoo boy on the Clinton stuff. The power dynamics at play in that situation are horrendous. I totally get what you're saying in terms of the context. But a LOT of people, particularly women, are looking back at Clinton and feeling a lot of remorse for not saying how fucked up that situation was. Not about Hillary, but the fact that a person in that position thought it was OK to be fucking around with a young, gullible, intern. It was gross.


When you started with "I respect you," I was braced for a much bigger assault, and I don't disagree with anything you said here. I'm having a really difficult time cementing my opinions on this one, and I'm thinking out loud in my posts. I know I've been inconsistent. You are right, the Dems didn't pressure Franken to resign until after 6 more accusations came out, and Franken, to my knowledge has not denied any of the allegations. I referenced the point in time when only the Tweeden accusation was known referencing the attacks on Franken at that point. Again, I know my thoughts here have not been clearly thought out or written, and I keep having work interruptions. I've found myself persuaded by arguments on both sides in this thread. I want to agree with Brian and Mister D, but I feel like Luke, and want to give in to my anger. Dems playing by the rules and taking the high road is the only reason the GOP own all three branches, and an overwhelming majority of state governments.

1.) I don't think anyone is arguing that the allegations against Franken aren't true. Franken admitted it. I find it a bit odd that I haven't seen anyone point out that she is a Right Wing talk show host. I've heard some rumblings about Roger Stone pushing Tweeden to come forward, but I haven't looked into those rumors at all. I don't think that changes anything. My point in discussing the false accusation potential was in response to Brian saying there is no slippery slope. The Right has created an industry out of generating fake scandals against Dems, and Fox and the RW media are eager to push the fake scandals. The Left has shown a willingness, on the occasions I discussed, to jump the gun and fire people over what turns out to be false accusations. My worry was Franken's resignation encouraging a future fake accusations against another Dem Congressman. Even if Stone orchestrated the accusations against Franken, I have to assume they are true.

2.) I'm not defending the morality of Clinton's affair with Lewinsky, I 100% agree it was a power play, taking advantage of a very young intern. Just pointing out that the moral leaders decrying Clinton as unfit were raging hypocrites. Clinton was absolutely gross, but not illegal, while Vitter banging whores was illegal. [Not to mention all of the other women with allegations against Clinton, some of whom claimed non-consensual sexual conduct).

I hope you weren't accusing me of "mansplaining" or imposing myself into the #MeToo movement. I'm not at all saying we, as men, know better what is and is not offensive or harassing to women. I sure as hell don't condone any form of sexual harassment. I conduct workplace investigations on claims of sexual harassment and teach seminars on preventing sexual harassment and hostile work environment claims, mostly from the angle of making employees aware of their own behavior, how they impact others, and learning boundaries (this is shockingly absent in many people). These are open ended discussions, and I've heard hundreds of stories of harassment from women, and discussed people's perceptions of behaviors that border on harassment. As a point of comparison, the majority of investigations I conduct are discrimination and hostile work environment claims. The overwhelming majority of these claims, I've found the allegations unsubstantiated. With Sexual harassment claims, I've found it likely that the claims were true in every single claim. In my opinion, this is because women do not want to bring these claims forward for numerous reasons. I think for every claim brought forward, there are hundreds that are not brought forward out of fear, embarrassment, or other reasons.

I'm not upset about Franken being forced to resign, but I'm not sold that it is the best political move for Dems. I am extremely upset at Al for committing the acts that led to the accusations. He was my favorite Senator, and I think his questioning during hearings was more valuable than anyone. He was a great speaker, and unafraid to say things that needed to be said. I'm pissed that he was a pig to women, I'm pissed he is leaving, but my anger is at Al, not the Dems who pushed for his resignation.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by The Sybian »

Johnnie wrote:I'm Team Syb.


For all the Team Syb comments, I'm not sure where I fall yet. I'm having an existential crisis here.
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Re: Random Politics

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Johnnie wrote:Unless the democrats build them a version of Roger Stone that's going to find the gay men the Republican establishment has been secretly fucking, then this was atrocious decision making.


You want to out gay republicans as revenge for "them" outing sexual predator Dems?
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Re: Random Politics

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mister d wrote:
Johnnie wrote:Unless the democrats build them a version of Roger Stone that's going to find the gay men the Republican establishment has been secretly fucking, then this was atrocious decision making.


You want to out gay republicans as revenge for "them" outing sexual predator Dems?

Sure, why the fuck not? You wanna play politics or whine all the fucking time that the world isn't fair?
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Re: Random Politics

Post by mister d »

Fuck yeah bro let the world know how gay they are and we'll never stop winning!!!
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Re: Random Politics

Post by A_B »

I think republicans admitting some of them are gay would be a win.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by Johnnie »

Delaware, are you that fucking dense? Seriously?

Being gay isn't the issue. It's the hypocrisy. And it's the only level of shame those assholes respond to by quiting their jobs.
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Re: Random Politics

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They’re exposed as hypocritical weekly. You and I both know it’s the “shame” of being gay and not “oh shoot I contradicted my votes” that would matter.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by brian »

The fact that Johnnie is somehow serious about outing gay people is evidence of how wrong he is.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by Johnnie »

Outing hypocrites. Don't mince my words. Don't make me sound anti gay either.

The only time republicans quit in shame is when they are caught with another guy despite being complete anti homosexual. It just happened in Ohio.

How the fuck are you people this bad at comprehension? How?
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Re: Random Politics

Post by Steve of phpBB »

So, um, apparently the woman with the yearbook says that she wrote "part" of the inscription that she previously put before the world and claimed it was from Moore?

That looks so horrible. To me, it throws the whole yearbook, and the entire story of that woman, into doubt.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by mister d »

No doubt this turns into "if you can disprove one piece of one accuser's story, everything must be completely false".
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Steve of phpBB
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Re: Random Politics

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mister d wrote:No doubt this turns into "if you can disprove one piece of one accuser's story, everything must be completely false".


Based on my experience, I think it's safe to assume that much of what that woman says is false. I've had cases where witnesses claim "OK, I lied about *that* part. But the rest is true, I swear!"

The rest usually isn't true.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: Random Politics

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Re: Random Politics

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brian wrote:https://twitter.com/aseitzwald/status/939170808148168710


I don;t follow Country music, and am not from the south...

Am I right in thinking that this is a pretty big deal?
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Re: Random Politics

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Pruitt wrote:
brian wrote:https://twitter.com/aseitzwald/status/939170808148168710


I don;t follow Country music, and am not from the south...

Am I right in thinking that this is a pretty big deal?


He's never endorsed or openly advocated for a politician before, no. He's worn his feelings about Trump on his sleeve, like a lot of musicians and artists, but never done anything like this. I think it goes to show how serious of a chance Jones really has.
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Re: Random Politics

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Pruitt wrote:
brian wrote:https://twitter.com/aseitzwald/status/939170808148168710


I don;t follow Country music, and am not from the south...

Am I right in thinking that this is a pretty big deal?

It's worth noting that Jason Isbell isn't some bro-country cowboy hat guy. He doesn't get played on typical country radio. Used to be in the Drive-by Truckers, who are a pretty rocking band. He's a thoughtful guy who writes intelligent lyrics.
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Re: Random Politics

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yeah, that. He's pretty damn progressive, I follow him on twitter.
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Re: Random Politics

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Pruitt wrote:
brian wrote:https://twitter.com/aseitzwald/status/939170808148168710


I don;t follow Country music, and am not from the south...

Am I right in thinking that this is a pretty big deal?


Sadly, though unsurprisingly he's taking some shit from the dimmest part of his fanbase who somehow couldn't figure out that a song like "Hope The High Road" was pretty much slamming their Cheeto Jesus.

https://twitter.com/dylansbeard/status/ ... 3572067328

https://twitter.com/JasonIsbell/status/ ... 1159059456
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Re: Random Politics

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Steve of phpBB wrote:So, um, apparently the woman with the yearbook says that she wrote "part" of the inscription that she previously put before the world and claimed it was from Moore?

That looks so horrible. To me, it throws the whole yearbook, and the entire story of that woman, into doubt.


I read the FoxNews update on my phone newsfeed, and they were not surprisingly misleading in their headline and tenor. According to the same article, she admitted that she wrote in the date and name of the restaurant where Moore signed. It didn't say if she wrote it then or after coming forward. If she wrote it then, and write dates on other people's signatures, it doesn't mean anything. If she wrote it last month, and claimed Moore wrote it, then it's a credibility issue.
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Re: Random Politics

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That twitter guy : Isbell :: Christie : Bruce
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Re: Random Politics

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The Sybian wrote:If she wrote it last month, and claimed Moore wrote it, then it's a credibility issue.


I don't know if she specifically said Moore wrote the date - but she and Allred certainly implied that the whole thing was written by Moore and let that be believed for weeks. So now it's a big deal.

Folks can still explain that Moore wrote the inscription, Nelson just wrote the date and place. But when you're explaining, you're losing.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: Random Politics

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