Random Politics

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The Sybian
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Re: Random Politics

Post by The Sybian » Tue May 08, 2018 8:44 am

mister d wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 8:36 am
Well, if it helps clean your conscience you could just picture all the people whose lives are ruined or are also dying due to those policies he sure does publicly struggle with on an ethical level before falling in line. Fuck him.
Perfectly stated. Back in 2000, I would have considered voting for McCain if he won the GOP nomination. Then in 2008, he completely sold out almost all of his principles to win over the party and the base. Saying he opposed torture (but doing nothing to stop the US use of torture) and telling a supporter at a rally that Obama was not a secret muslim were about the only moments he showed any dignity. Raising Palin to national prominence was a disaster that no man can ever recover from.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by A_B » Tue May 08, 2018 9:28 am

Pruitt wrote:
Thu May 03, 2018 6:25 pm
brian wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:29 pm
Looks like the GOP candidate for Manchin's Senate seat in West Virginia is likely going to be...wait for it...a guy who spent a year in federal prison after one of his coal mines exploded and killed 29 people.

Make America Great Again, indeed. It's like 1910 all up in this bitch!
Not so fast. There's this guy...



"Cocaine Mitch?!"
Oh hell. He's ahead in the latest polling.
certainly expansive during tactical areas and specific zones

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Re: Random Politics

Post by L-Jam3 » Tue May 08, 2018 10:06 am

Good. I hope he wins the nomination. That way the Democrats can hammer that the Republicans is the party of failure (Trump), child rapists (Moore),and murderers (this clown). Every shitty human that the Republicans put up brings a number of sane people to vote for the Democrats as a protest vote.

Or maybe I'm thinking for myself. I was a registered Republican for a long time from my parents, but one that was socially conscious. I abhor prejudice in all its forms and have so for my entire being. I feel that a person's view of government as either the panacea for the ills of society or a necessary evil was more indicative of their overall political leanings either left or right respectively. My right-leanings was merely because I thought government was a necessary evil, as something that is corruptible and should be held in check when needed, but altogether essential, as having no government was even worse. The key word there is "necessary". Government is difficult because it has to handle the jobs that private industry feels is too hard or not profitable. So of course it's going to look inefficient. I also have a strong foreign view, in that as the only true superpower in the world, it is our responsibility to make the world safer, and strength in both diplomacy and force is necessary for those ends. Force, of course, is a last resort, but must be present. We have to be willing to use force, again if necessary, or the mere threat or suggestion of it becomes empty.

And politically, I never once voted straight ticket. I vote for the person and always have. I tend to ignore the party and think to myself who is going to do the best job. In terms of presidential elections, I always thought the Electoral College was a complete aberration that was only in the Constitution to appease the slave states and goes against the very idea of a democratic ideals, so literally every presidential vote I simply skipped and went to the next spot on the ballot.

But then the Republicans put this fucking joke of a human being up as their party nominee. Anyone who spent any time in the northeast knew for 30 years this guy was a fucking clown. Every piece of information that comes out shows he's even worse than before. And this pulled the curtain back on the level of abject racism and stupidity in this country, and I was disgusted to the point of action. I felt for the sake of a check on power that a non-impotent minority party is essential in a government. But this was too much. 2016 was the first time I went straight ticket for Democrats. I did the same for 2017. The Republicans need more than punishment for what they did to this country. They need to burn to the fucking ground. And maybe all I have is one vote. But get a bunch of votes in the aggregate and real change happens. Fuck that entire party.

And I have a hope that after this is over America will be re-energized. I saw it with the Women's Movement and #MeToo. People are acting and are willing to fight. And as I look back through our history, after tough times America moved forward. Fuck Make America Great AGAIN. America's future is great, and greater than its past. Anyone who wants to go backwards is a coward and afraid of losing their own power. But this is Darwinism at its finest: adapt or die. And if whites and males and straights lose power because of it, it's because it's following the natural order.

Thanks for letting me rant.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by brian » Tue May 08, 2018 10:15 am

I thought the one thing that might actually sink Blankenship is that he actually doesn't live in West Virginia (his main residence is in Las Vegas).

Apparently West Virginians don't care if he's following the Trump dogma.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by P.D.X. » Tue May 08, 2018 10:27 am

L-Jam3 wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 10:06 am
But this is Darwinism at its finest: adapt or die. And if whites and males and straights lose power because of it, it's because it's following the natural order.
I think that's why we're seeing such blatant corruption, greed, and power grabs. They know they're going extinct and need to get while the gettin's good.

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Re: Random Politics

Post by Pruitt » Tue May 08, 2018 11:07 am

brian wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 10:15 am
I thought the one thing that might actually sink Blankenship is that he actually doesn't live in West Virginia (his main residence is in Las Vegas).

Apparently West Virginians don't care if he's following the Trump dogma.
Unfocused anger is a politician's best friend.

ETA - And this is the guy who spent time in jail - in WEST VIRGINIA!! - for running an unsafe mine where 29 people died. It boggles the mind.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by Nonlinear FC » Tue May 08, 2018 11:50 am

Solid rant, L-J
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Re: Random Politics

Post by The Sybian » Tue May 08, 2018 11:59 am

Pruitt wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 11:07 am
brian wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 10:15 am
I thought the one thing that might actually sink Blankenship is that he actually doesn't live in West Virginia (his main residence is in Las Vegas).

Apparently West Virginians don't care if he's following the Trump dogma.
Unfocused anger is a politician's best friend.

ETA - And this is the guy who spent time in jail - in WEST VIRGINIA!! - for running an unsafe mine where 29 people died. It boggles the mind.
His supporters are all convinced it was government regulators fault. They believe his mines were safe until the government forced him to make changes that led to the explosion. See, if we remove all regulations, mine owners will spend more money on safety precautions and avoid polluting, because the free market. I don't know about you, but I only use electricity from coal mining companies that don't pollute.

I see a lot of Liberals rooting for Blankenship, thinking he will be easy to beat, but I just don't trust West Virginia not to elect a batshit crazy criminally corrupt coal baron.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by brian » Tue May 08, 2018 12:02 pm

The Sybian wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 11:59 am
Pruitt wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 11:07 am
brian wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 10:15 am
I thought the one thing that might actually sink Blankenship is that he actually doesn't live in West Virginia (his main residence is in Las Vegas).

Apparently West Virginians don't care if he's following the Trump dogma.
Unfocused anger is a politician's best friend.

ETA - And this is the guy who spent time in jail - in WEST VIRGINIA!! - for running an unsafe mine where 29 people died. It boggles the mind.
His supporters are all convinced it was government regulators fault. They believe his mines were safe until the government forced him to make changes that led to the explosion. See, if we remove all regulations, mine owners will spend more money on safety precautions and avoid polluting, because the free market. I don't know about you, but I only use electricity from coal mining companies that don't pollute.

I see a lot of Liberals rooting for Blankenship, thinking he will be easy to beat, but I just don't trust West Virginia not to elect a batshit crazy criminally corrupt coal baron.
Yeah, I don't root for the batshit crazy dude to win GOP nominations any more. Hard to believe anyone could think that after 2016.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by The Sybian » Tue May 08, 2018 12:13 pm

brian wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 12:02 pm
Yeah, I don't root for the batshit crazy dude to win GOP nominations any more. Hard to believe anyone could think that after 2016.
I guess it worked in Alabama. You know Blankenship is bad when Trump begs Republicans not to vote for him, and Blankenship's response is that he is "more Trump than Trump."
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Re: Random Politics

Post by mister d » Wed May 09, 2018 1:12 pm

bfj wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:07 am
My people call that Kishka.

ETA - we don't call weird dicks Kishka.

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Re: Random Politics

Post by Nonlinear FC » Wed May 09, 2018 5:07 pm

The the GOP keeps self-identifying as far, far right wing nutters, the more it pushes moderates to vote "other."

And since I don't live in WV, if they are such a fucked up populace they will vote for that douchehole, fuck them.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by mister d » Thu May 10, 2018 2:32 pm

bfj wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:07 am
My people call that Kishka.

ETA - we don't call weird dicks Kishka.

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Re: Random Politics

Post by Johnnie » Thu May 10, 2018 6:33 pm

mister d wrote:Couldn't have pegged me better.

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Re: Random Politics

Post by sancarlos » Mon May 14, 2018 7:00 pm

"What a bunch of pedantic pricks." - sybian

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Re: Random Politics

Post by Joe K » Mon May 14, 2018 7:49 pm

That’s obviously gross but the bigger problem is the Trump Admistration giving Israel carte blanche to gun down protestors. Israel showing total disregard for civilians in Gaza is a predictable result of the Trump-Netanyahu mutual admiration society.

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Re: Random Politics

Post by Avram » Mon May 14, 2018 8:16 pm

Joe K wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:49 pm
That’s obviously gross but the bigger problem is the Trump Admistration giving Israel carte blanche to gun down protestors. Israel showing total disregard for civilians in Gaza is a predictable result of the Trump-Netanyahu mutual admiration society.
I'm curious Joe; what do you think those people in Gaza were planning to do if they had been allowed to cross the fence? Why do you think they had been trying to cross the fence for the past several weeks? You know that there are a lot of Israeli villages not far from the fence.

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Re: Random Politics

Post by Joe K » Mon May 14, 2018 8:26 pm

Avram wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 8:16 pm
Joe K wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:49 pm
That’s obviously gross but the bigger problem is the Trump Admistration giving Israel carte blanche to gun down protestors. Israel showing total disregard for civilians in Gaza is a predictable result of the Trump-Netanyahu mutual admiration society.
I'm curious Joe; what do you think those people in Gaza were planning to do if they had been allowed to cross the fence? Why do you think they had been trying to cross the fence for the past several weeks? You know that there are a lot of Israeli villages not far from the fence.
Is there any evidence they had the capability of even crossing the fence, let alone getting to those villiages? Regardless, do you think Israeli soldiers firing on protestors and killing dozens, including children, was a proportionate response? Not a single Israeli soldier or civilian was injured today, and yet dozens of unarmed Palestinians were killed and hundreds more injured. Even if you think Israel was acting out of a legitimate self-defense motive here, and I don’t, it’s not a remotely proportionate response.

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Re: Random Politics

Post by Pruitt » Mon May 14, 2018 8:35 pm

sancarlos wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:00 pm
So many Jews delude themselves that these born-again types are our friends. They just want us rounded up so we can die when Jesus returns.

And let me just say that I am a Zionist and I support Israel... but not blindly.

I fucking hate Netanyahu. If he told me that it was sunny, I would pack an umbrella.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by Avram » Mon May 14, 2018 9:39 pm

Joe K wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 8:26 pm
Avram wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 8:16 pm
Joe K wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:49 pm
That’s obviously gross but the bigger problem is the Trump Admistration giving Israel carte blanche to gun down protestors. Israel showing total disregard for civilians in Gaza is a predictable result of the Trump-Netanyahu mutual admiration society.
I'm curious Joe; what do you think those people in Gaza were planning to do if they had been allowed to cross the fence? Why do you think they had been trying to cross the fence for the past several weeks? You know that there are a lot of Israeli villages not far from the fence.
Is there any evidence they had the capability of even crossing the fence, let alone getting to those villiages? Regardless, do you think Israeli soldiers firing on protestors and killing dozens, including children, was a proportionate response? Not a single Israeli soldier or civilian was injured today, and yet dozens of unarmed Palestinians were killed and hundreds more injured. Even if you think Israel was acting out of a legitimate self-defense motive here, and I don’t, it’s not a remotely proportionate response.
Sure they could cross the fence. It is not electrified, it is not a wall. It has electronic devices on it to detect peo-ple trying to infiltrate the fence. But it isn't designed to stop a mass of people pressing up against the fence. So if a 1000 people pushed on the fence it would fall over. There were many Gazans there who said that if they got across the fence they would kill people. Some of them had guns, some had bombs and grenades. And the purpose of the demonstartion was not the embassy. They called it a March of Return. That is, a return to Palestine (from the river to the sea) by Gazans. In other words, the eliminatuon of Israel, which Hamas doesn't recognize.

Like Pruitt, I am a Jew, I am a Zionist ( in the sense that Zionism means the self determination of the Jewish people in their country in Israel. I am also an American. This is my country. I have my differences with the Israeli government. It is esasy to call the response by the IDF disproportionate. It is an easy take. But their first duty is the protection of Israelis, and means not allowing those gazans across the fence. That is not easy to do without killing people, when the other side is more than happy to create a situation that puts the IDF in a difficult position. there were over 50,000 people out there. Not all of them were rushing the fence. But if it was even 10% that is a hell of a lot of people. How would you keep them from crossing, short of using poison gas and barrel bombs? If Israel just wanted to gun people down, there would have been more than 50 dead.

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Re: Random Politics

Post by Gunpowder » Tue May 15, 2018 3:00 am

I agree and say kill them all for crimes that they might have thought about committing.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by EnochRoot » Tue May 15, 2018 8:30 am

Avram wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 9:39 pm
Joe K wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 8:26 pm
Avram wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 8:16 pm
Joe K wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:49 pm
That’s obviously gross but the bigger problem is the Trump Admistration giving Israel carte blanche to gun down protestors. Israel showing total disregard for civilians in Gaza is a predictable result of the Trump-Netanyahu mutual admiration society.
I'm curious Joe; what do you think those people in Gaza were planning to do if they had been allowed to cross the fence? Why do you think they had been trying to cross the fence for the past several weeks? You know that there are a lot of Israeli villages not far from the fence.
Is there any evidence they had the capability of even crossing the fence, let alone getting to those villiages? Regardless, do you think Israeli soldiers firing on protestors and killing dozens, including children, was a proportionate response? Not a single Israeli soldier or civilian was injured today, and yet dozens of unarmed Palestinians were killed and hundreds more injured. Even if you think Israel was acting out of a legitimate self-defense motive here, and I don’t, it’s not a remotely proportionate response.
Sure they could cross the fence. It is not electrified, it is not a wall. It has electronic devices on it to detect peo-ple trying to infiltrate the fence. But it isn't designed to stop a mass of people pressing up against the fence. So if a 1000 people pushed on the fence it would fall over. There were many Gazans there who said that if they got across the fence they would kill people. Some of them had guns, some had bombs and grenades. And the purpose of the demonstartion was not the embassy. They called it a March of Return. That is, a return to Palestine (from the river to the sea) by Gazans. In other words, the eliminatuon of Israel, which Hamas doesn't recognize.

Like Pruitt, I am a Jew, I am a Zionist ( in the sense that Zionism means the self determination of the Jewish people in their country in Israel. I am also an American. This is my country. I have my differences with the Israeli government. It is esasy to call the response by the IDF disproportionate. It is an easy take. But their first duty is the protection of Israelis, and means not allowing those gazans across the fence. That is not easy to do without killing people, when the other side is more than happy to create a situation that puts the IDF in a difficult position. there were over 50,000 people out there. Not all of them were rushing the fence. But if it was even 10% that is a hell of a lot of people. How would you keep them from crossing, short of using poison gas and barrel bombs? If Israel just wanted to gun people down, there would have been more than 50 dead.
Wow. Can I have zealotry for $500, Alex?

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Re: Random Politics

Post by brian » Tue May 15, 2018 5:07 pm

Vegas Golden Knights retired numbers:
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Re: Random Politics

Post by EnochRoot » Tue May 15, 2018 8:33 pm

Trump called him personally to congratulate him.

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Re: Random Politics

Post by Joe K » Wed May 16, 2018 7:15 am

More Onion:
Wiping away a tear as he confirmed the public’s worst fears, Israel prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu officially declared a nationwide day of mourning Tuesday for a section of security fence damaged in yesterday’s conflict at the Gaza border. “We must all come together and take the time to grieve for this poor, innocent length of fence,” said Netanyahu, who throughout his reportedly stirring eulogy shared several images of the youthful barrier, which was first erected between Israel and the Gaza Strip in 1994. “Let us never forget what happened to this beautiful razor wire–topped barricade, which still had so much life ahead of it. As we lower our flags to half-mast, I encourage all Israelis to take a few moments to consider the great sacrifices made by our many brave fabricated enclosures.” Sources confirmed Netanyahu concluded the solemn ceremony with a 21-gun salute fired directly into a group of Palestinian protesters.
Also:

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Re: Random Politics

Post by Avram » Wed May 16, 2018 8:07 pm

https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-off ... e-members/\\

so the vast majority of those killed on Monday were not innocent civilian protestors, but instead members of a terrorist group that has sworn to destrroy Israel

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Re: Random Politics

Post by EnochRoot » Wed May 16, 2018 9:05 pm

Avram wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 8:07 pm
https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-off ... e-members/\\

so the vast majority of those killed on Monday were not innocent civilian protestors, but instead members of a terrorist group that has sworn to destrroy Israel
Well then. Good aim, boys!

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Re: Random Politics

Post by brian » Wed May 16, 2018 10:06 pm

Avram wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 8:07 pm
https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-off ... e-members/\\

so the vast majority of those killed on Monday were not innocent civilian protestors, but instead members of a terrorist group that has sworn to destrroy Israel
Pretty amazing IDF managed to shoot unarmed terrorists. I guess Hamas is so stupid they’re sending their best terrorists to a protest without weapons. Seems like an organization to really be scared of. You deserve Trump. You’re just as stupid and gullible as the biggest GOP mark in West Virginia.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by Gunpowder » Thu May 17, 2018 1:43 am

I'm sure there are a bunch of old articles from German newspapers detailing just how the Jewish people wanted nothing more than complete destruction to Germany.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by Joe K » Thu May 17, 2018 5:20 am



Also, Israel’s ultra rightwing Defense Minister said this in early April:
In the interview, Liberman said: “You have to understand, there are no innocent people in the Gaza Strip. Everyone has a connection to Hamas. Everyone receives a salary from Hamas.”

“Those who are trying to challenge us at the border and breach it belong to Hamas’s military wing,” he said.
Not hard to see how you get from that viewpoint to justifying indiscriminate violence against civilians. It reminds me how, for years, the US has automatically defined every male killed in our drone strikes as an “enemy combatant.”

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Re: Random Politics

Post by Pruitt » Thu May 17, 2018 5:49 am

Gunpowder wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 1:43 am
I'm sure there are a bunch of old articles from German newspapers detailing just how the Jewish people wanted nothing more than complete destruction to Germany.
That's a bit apples & oranges.

I will say that there is a disturbing trait among many diaspora Jews to have the state of Israel's back regardless of how corrupt and how nasty the government is.

Hamas has been using human shields for years and years. So why can't the IDF come up with a better strategy than shoot to kill? These protests should not have been unexpected, so why not dig a moat? Build another fence?

Israel is not going away in the foreseeable future. Neither are the Palestinians. The great shame of having idiots in the White House is that the worst elements of Israeli power now feel that they can act with impunity.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by Gunpowder » Thu May 17, 2018 6:13 am

It probably is apples and not apples and these surely weren't all people with pure motivations but I would expect Israeli newspapers to say that these were all Hamas terrorists intent on destroying Israel. If this is the case, why not gun them all down next time they are near the fence?

I was also under the impression that a wall could keep people out who we didn't want in.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by Pruitt » Thu May 17, 2018 6:37 am

Gunpowder wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 6:13 am
It probably is apples and not apples and these surely weren't all people with pure motivations but I would expect Israeli newspapers to say that these were all Hamas terrorists intent on destroying Israel. If this is the case, why not gun them all down next time they are near the fence?

I was also under the impression that a wall could keep people out who we didn't want in.
The Israeli press isn;t all one-dimensional Fox News types. I think that one of the problems is that the pro-Israel groups on this side of the pond have become defacto cheerleaders for the worst excesses of Netanyahu and his cronies. Sort of a "he may be a bastard, but he's all we have." Also the reluctance of more liberal Jews to go after the Haredim politically has hurt the cause of logic and diplomacy.

There's a fear of being seen as "anti-Israel" if you point out that anything the country does isn't perfect. Like you're an appeaser.

Same situation within the Jewish community. What riles me is that these ultra-orthodox Jews, the ones who won't serve in the army, the ones who put such a strain on the country's social safety net by having so many kids and so little income (the men are too busy studying to help their wives) wouldn't consider my family to be Jewish enough. And they now set the tone for so much of what goes on in that country.

A biblical interpretation of events means that you don't seek a away to live with others, it means that you seek to destroy them, to make them disappear. Whether they are the Amorites, the palestinians or even secular or reform Jews.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by Avram » Thu May 17, 2018 3:36 pm

I was simply trying to point out that the majority of those killed on Monday were members of Hamas

The following article is (IMHO) well balanced and thoughtful and I think worth reading. This is from a liberal US Jewish publication and I think has a good perspective

http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-an ... -explainer

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Re: Random Politics

Post by Nonlinear FC » Thu May 17, 2018 4:26 pm

Avram wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 3:36 pm
I was simply trying to point out that the majority of those killed on Monday were members of Hamas

The following article is (IMHO) well balanced and thoughtful and I think worth reading. This is from a liberal US Jewish publication and I think has a good perspective

http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-an ... -explainer
Everyone should read that. Thanks for posting. If it wasn't my daughter's birfday (with a corresponding post on my wall) I'd share it right now on Facebook.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by Pruitt » Thu May 17, 2018 5:30 pm

Very well done article.

And like Avram says, Tablet is a liberal publication. One of the great tragedies is that the intellectual, liberal strain of Judaism - one that understands the past yet lives in the present - is becoming marginalized in Israel.
11. There are constructive solutions to Gaza’s problems that would alleviate the plight of its Palestinian population while assuaging the security concerns of Israelis. However, these useful proposals do not go viral like angry tweets ranting about how Palestinians are all de facto terrorists or Israelis are the new Nazis, which is one reason why you probably have never heard of them.
"Maybe he shit out his memory." - Mr. D

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EnochRoot
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Re: Random Politics

Post by EnochRoot » Thu May 17, 2018 5:53 pm

Thanks for the read.
13. But because the entire debate around Israel’s conduct has been framed by absolutists who insist either that Israel is utterly blameless or that Israel is wantonly massacring random Palestinians for sport, a reasonable inquiry into what it did correctly and what it did not is unlikely to happen.
Not sure a reasonable inquiry is even possible without an adequate spotlight thrust upon Zionism itself.

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Re: Random Politics

Post by Avram » Thu May 17, 2018 6:53 pm

EnochRoot wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 5:53 pm
Thanks for the read.
13. But because the entire debate around Israel’s conduct has been framed by absolutists who insist either that Israel is utterly blameless or that Israel is wantonly massacring random Palestinians for sport, a reasonable inquiry into what it did correctly and what it did not is unlikely to happen.
Not sure a reasonable inquiry is even possible without an adequate spotlight thrust upon Zionism itself.
Which iteration of Zionism are you talking about. The original concept (going back to Herzl in the late 19th century) was for a national home for Jewish people where they could be a majority. Herzl did not have a place in mind when he wrote his famous book describing the concept of Zionism, but it rapidly evolved that the only concievable location was where Jews came from (Israel/Palestine/Judea/The Holy Land; whatever you would like to call it). 2000 years of persecution as a minority nearly everywhere Jews have lived was the driving force. Thne concept of a Jewish nation in Palestine did not arise from the Holocaust, it developed long before that. Is there a reason why Jews should be denied self determination? Jews ahve been expelled from nearly every country they have lived in at one time or another.
I don't believe that the existence of Israel should exclude a Palestinian nation. I believe the only solution is a two-state solution. There is no other. The extreme Zionists are absolutely wrong, I don't agree with them. But the Zionism that led to the creation of Israel is justified and legitimate. It wasn't the Israelis who were opposed to the two state solution. The Arabs refused to countenance the existence of the "Zionist entity" as they referred to it. Even now, when Hamas has talked about their March of Return for the past several weeks (which had nothing to do with the US embassy), their goal was the destruction of Israel.
That doesnb't mean that the cuirrent government isn't absolutely wrong in their approach. But the last intifada (you remember that one, when there were suicide bombers all over Israel) killed the left in Israel, because they felt they has no partner for peace. Likud and Bibi capitalized on that. Most Israelis are in favor of a two state solution. In fact I believe a greater percentage of Israelis than Palestinians want that. But they also value security more than anything else. And that is the one thing Bibi has given them. Unfortunately, he is a political opportunist of the worst kind, not a risk taker, and he values his power mkore than anything else. That is why he keeps getting reelected. Tragic, but that is reality.

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Re: Random Politics

Post by Gunpowder » Fri May 18, 2018 5:07 am

So many of these things seem to be significantly exacerbated by living conditions in the area. Either we or Israel or the UK or whoever else continually fucks with these areas just creates conditions for Hamases to take over.

Even if most of these dudes were bad actors, firing into crowds of them seems to do nothing but make it easier for terrorist groups to recruit, IMO.
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Re: Random Politics

Post by EnochRoot » Sat May 19, 2018 2:10 pm

Avram wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 6:53 pm
EnochRoot wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 5:53 pm
Thanks for the read.
13. But because the entire debate around Israel’s conduct has been framed by absolutists who insist either that Israel is utterly blameless or that Israel is wantonly massacring random Palestinians for sport, a reasonable inquiry into what it did correctly and what it did not is unlikely to happen.
Not sure a reasonable inquiry is even possible without an adequate spotlight thrust upon Zionism itself.
Which iteration of Zionism are you talking about. The original concept (going back to Herzl in the late 19th century) was for a national home for Jewish people where they could be a majority. Herzl did not have a place in mind when he wrote his famous book describing the concept of Zionism, but it rapidly evolved that the only concievable location was where Jews came from (Israel/Palestine/Judea/The Holy Land; whatever you would like to call it). 2000 years of persecution as a minority nearly everywhere Jews have lived was the driving force. Thne concept of a Jewish nation in Palestine did not arise from the Holocaust, it developed long before that. Is there a reason why Jews should be denied self determination? Jews ahve been expelled from nearly every country they have lived in at one time or another.
I don't believe that the existence of Israel should exclude a Palestinian nation. I believe the only solution is a two-state solution. There is no other. The extreme Zionists are absolutely wrong, I don't agree with them. But the Zionism that led to the creation of Israel is justified and legitimate. It wasn't the Israelis who were opposed to the two state solution. The Arabs refused to countenance the existence of the "Zionist entity" as they referred to it. Even now, when Hamas has talked about their March of Return for the past several weeks (which had nothing to do with the US embassy), their goal was the destruction of Israel.
That doesnb't mean that the cuirrent government isn't absolutely wrong in their approach. But the last intifada (you remember that one, when there were suicide bombers all over Israel) killed the left in Israel, because they felt they has no partner for peace. Likud and Bibi capitalized on that. Most Israelis are in favor of a two state solution. In fact I believe a greater percentage of Israelis than Palestinians want that. But they also value security more than anything else. And that is the one thing Bibi has given them. Unfortunately, he is a political opportunist of the worst kind, not a risk taker, and he values his power mkore than anything else. That is why he keeps getting reelected. Tragic, but that is reality.
Thank you for going to considerable lengths here to explain yourself.

When I said there needs to be an adequate spotlight thrust upon Zionism, I was referring in a broader sense to tribalism (Zionism is the tribe that controls the levers of power here). Humanity's lost out, and it'd appear the endgame playing out is just fine and dandy for those that follow it (Zionism).

I'm so fucking burned out talking about it. Maybe that was the goal all along?

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