The Swamp

I had to look it up, but I'm the opposite which means I apparently view things through a (copy/paste) deontological lens. Trump is apathetic at best, intentional at worst about the death he's causing right now and would double it for personal gain. He'd nuke a country tomorrow if it made his dick a quarter inch bigger. GW would have lumbered through life without a single confirmed kill if not for his father's prominence propping him up to global useful idiot status for people like Cheney/Rove to manipulate.

mister d wrote: ↑Tue May 05, 2020 10:38 am I had to look it up, but I'm the opposite which means I apparently view things through a (copy/paste) deontological lens. Trump is apathetic at best, intentional at worst about the death he's causing right now and would double it for personal gain. He'd nuke a country tomorrow if it made his dick a quarter inch bigger. GW would have lumbered through life without a single confirmed kill if not for his father's prominence propping him up to global useful idiot status for people like Cheney/Rove to manipulate.

You're probably right about the motives, and I haven't seen the word "deontological" since I tried to get into philosophy almost 20 years ago. But I ultimately think that results are what's most important for political figures. Even if FDR were an absolutely terrible person in his personal life, he'd still be by far the best US president of the 20th-21st Century. And Bush has gotta be the worst (or, at best, second worst to Nixon) of the past 100 years even though everyone seems to think he's a personable and likeable guy when you meet him.

He flirted with Michelle Obama at a funeral! He's a sweetie!

mister d wrote: ↑Tue May 05, 2020 10:38 am I had to look it up, but I'm the opposite which means I apparently view things through a (copy/paste) deontological lens. Trump is apathetic at best, intentional at worst about the death he's causing right now and would double it for personal gain. He'd nuke a country tomorrow if it made his dick a quarter inch bigger. GW would have lumbered through life without a single confirmed kill if not for his father's prominence propping him up to global useful idiot status for people like Cheney/Rove to manipulate.

I think this is spot on.

Today I voted in my state's primary from a deployed location by email.

When do I go to prison?

Joe K wrote: ↑Tue May 05, 2020 11:07 am

mister d wrote: ↑Tue May 05, 2020 10:38 am I had to look it up, but I'm the opposite which means I apparently view things through a (copy/paste) deontological lens. Trump is apathetic at best, intentional at worst about the death he's causing right now and would double it for personal gain. He'd nuke a country tomorrow if it made his dick a quarter inch bigger. GW would have lumbered through life without a single confirmed kill if not for his father's prominence propping him up to global useful idiot status for people like Cheney/Rove to manipulate.

You're probably right about the motives, and I haven't seen the word "deontological" since I tried to get into philosophy almost 20 years ago. But I ultimately think that results are what's most important for political figures. Even if FDR were an absolutely terrible person in his personal life, he'd still be by far the best US president of the 20th-21st Century. And Bush has gotta be the worst (or, at best, second worst to Nixon) of the past 100 years even though everyone seems to think he's a personable and likeable guy when you meet him.

Results? We’re heading into the 2nd Great Depression with 9/11’s every 3 or 4 days, and total destruction of America’s standing in the world far beyond what GWB ever wrought, and you still think Trump has a chance to be regarded as the President who wasn’t worse than Buchanan and 43 others? Am I missing something?

cerrano wrote: ↑Fri May 15, 2020 6:59 pm

Joe K wrote: ↑Tue May 05, 2020 11:07 am

mister d wrote: ↑Tue May 05, 2020 10:38 am I had to look it up, but I'm the opposite which means I apparently view things through a (copy/paste) deontological lens. Trump is apathetic at best, intentional at worst about the death he's causing right now and would double it for personal gain. He'd nuke a country tomorrow if it made his dick a quarter inch bigger. GW would have lumbered through life without a single confirmed kill if not for his father's prominence propping him up to global useful idiot status for people like Cheney/Rove to manipulate.

You're probably right about the motives, and I haven't seen the word "deontological" since I tried to get into philosophy almost 20 years ago. But I ultimately think that results are what's most important for political figures. Even if FDR were an absolutely terrible person in his personal life, he'd still be by far the best US president of the 20th-21st Century. And Bush has gotta be the worst (or, at best, second worst to Nixon) of the past 100 years even though everyone seems to think he's a personable and likeable guy when you meet him.

Results? We’re heading into the 2nd Great Depression with 9/11’s every 3 or 4 days, and total destruction of America’s standing in the world far beyond what GWB ever wrought, and you still think Trump has a chance to be regarded as the President who wasn’t worse than Buchanan and 43 others? Am I missing something?

The Iraq War. Specifically, it’s toll on the Iraqi people in terms of death and displacement.

ETA: And re: Nixon, the death and suffering he caused throughout SE Asia. It’s not just American lives that matter in the moral calculus of our politicians.

Joe K wrote: ↑Fri May 15, 2020 8:47 pm

cerrano wrote: ↑Fri May 15, 2020 6:59 pm

Joe K wrote: ↑Tue May 05, 2020 11:07 am

mister d wrote: ↑Tue May 05, 2020 10:38 am I had to look it up, but I'm the opposite which means I apparently view things through a (copy/paste) deontological lens. Trump is apathetic at best, intentional at worst about the death he's causing right now and would double it for personal gain. He'd nuke a country tomorrow if it made his dick a quarter inch bigger. GW would have lumbered through life without a single confirmed kill if not for his father's prominence propping him up to global useful idiot status for people like Cheney/Rove to manipulate.

You're probably right about the motives, and I haven't seen the word "deontological" since I tried to get into philosophy almost 20 years ago. But I ultimately think that results are what's most important for political figures. Even if FDR were an absolutely terrible person in his personal life, he'd still be by far the best US president of the 20th-21st Century. And Bush has gotta be the worst (or, at best, second worst to Nixon) of the past 100 years even though everyone seems to think he's a personable and likeable guy when you meet him.

Results? We’re heading into the 2nd Great Depression with 9/11’s every 3 or 4 days, and total destruction of America’s standing in the world far beyond what GWB ever wrought, and you still think Trump has a chance to be regarded as the President who wasn’t worse than Buchanan and 43 others? Am I missing something?

The Iraq War. Specifically, it’s toll on the Iraqi people in terms of death and displacement.

ETA: And re: Nixon, the death and suffering he caused throughout SE Asia. It’s not just American lives that matter in the moral calculus of our politicians.

Trust me, I’m a Bartletista, so my calculus does take into account lives of people who weren’t born fair haired and skinned. I’m thinking of Syrian lives and culture casually tossed aside to please an increasingly fascist Turkish state, and the lives and families of Central Americans who are trying to enter the US legally.

While the endless war on terror’s seismic displacement of Iraqis and Kurds and others around the Middle East and SW Asia is undoubtedly one of the black marks on our history, the gleeful annihilation of even the appearance of the rule of law, in service to lecherous, syphilitic, racist who openly harbors full-on incest fantasies will be the way I measure his howler of a presidency, because the wounds Trump is inflicting on our body politic May be acutely fatal.

Bush wasn’t exactly a modern day Hammurabi when it comes to respecting the rule of law. He fired a bunch of US Attorneys for political reasons, made Alberto Gonzalez USAG, tried to put Harriet Miers on the Supreme Court and unleashed a global torture regime in violation of US and international law. And the amount of unnecessary suffering unleashed by his flat out criminal war in Iraq, and incompetently run war in Afghanistan, pretty clearly surpasses the human toll of Trump’s bad policies.

Joe K wrote: ↑Fri May 15, 2020 9:19 pm Bush wasn’t exactly a modern day Hammurabi when it comes to respecting the rule of law. He fired a bunch of US Attorneys for political reasons

Ahem, Preet Bahrara, and a slew of others including Sally Yates. ETA: Actually, the reasons were more corrupt as many have noted that these offices were iNvestigating the president’s criminal wrongdoing (or wrongdoing by his appointees).

Joe K wrote: ↑Fri May 15, 2020 9:19 pm Alberto Gonzalez USAG, tried to put Harriet Miers on the Supreme Court

Associate Justice “Boof” Kavanaugh

Joe K wrote: ↑Fri May 15, 2020 9:19 pm...and unleashed a global torture regime in violation of US and international law.

A policy Trump openly registers his lust for anytime he’s asked.

Joe K wrote: ↑Fri May 15, 2020 9:19 pm And the amount of unnecessary suffering unleashed by his flat out criminal war in Iraq, and incompetently run war in Afghanistan, pretty clearly surpasses the human toll of Trump’s bad policies.

Trunp isnothing if not efficient in his calculus when in comes to how human life should be valued, and it’s clear in his social safety net policies, his rollback of Obama-era regulations, and his complete failure to empathy for the over 80,000 Americans who ha lost their lives. These all point to the distinct possibility That enough Americans will either die or be displaced to rival some of the hardships that Iraqis experienced at our hands. While
One was to avenge daddy, the other approach is please fascist dictators for the sake of his own vanity. If forced to choose Inigo Montoya over the shady deeds of an orange Caligula, I’ll take that highly focused Spaniard every damn day of the week and twice on Sunday.

I'm still watching the American Experience doc on W and most of the history they show are interviews form his former associates talking about a talented, charismatic guy, not ready for foreign affairs, being guided by 2 awful people, Rumsfield and Cheney, and stupid Bush following along with whatever they said. Maybe that's a positive for Trump, that he didn't bring in shitheads like that to fuck everything up. Another negative for W compared to Trump is his religion and idealism; Bush thought with God behind his back, he's fixing the world. Trump doesn't give a shit and every decision is based on what helps him, which probably helped the US avoid some war escalations. This was working to make him a slightly better president than W..until the pandemic came. Now we're seeing where basic competence and an ounce of compassion would help so much, and Trump is such a fuckup, he can't even manage that. This pandemic is the Trump presidency and how he will forever be judged (unless he finds a new way to fuck things up even more)

EdRomero wrote: ↑Fri May 15, 2020 9:49 pmMaybe that's a positive for Trump, that he didn't bring in shitheads like that to fuck everything up.

Trump hired John Bolton, one of the worst fuckups behind the Iraq War. But Trump has such an ego that he can't stand back and let anyone else do their jobs, even the terrible people like Bolton and Sessions.

Holy crap. What a tweet.



I bet Ron Burgundy is impressed.

Great slogan.

McSally down 13 points (!) to Mark Kelly in AZ Republic poll.

This is indicative of the larger trend which is that suburban and even exurban areas that were previously solid, solid Republican are running away from the GOP. Phoenix is essentially just one big suburb, so I would think Donald Trump would be in huge trouble there this year.

Damn. It was just a month or so ago (I think) where this was only 8 points.

McSally is fucking hated there. Despite being a retired full bird Colonel with combat bonafides as a woman, her appointment after losing to Kyrsten Sinema to McCain's seat was typical Arizona politics. Everyone seems to have scoffed at this if the polls hold through the summer. It feels like the white people in that state are sick of Trump.

Arizonans seem to be getting bluer overall despite the red state nature of everything there.

Johnnie wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 11:18 am Damn. It was just a month or so ago (I think) where this was only 8 points.

McSally is fucking hated there. Despite being a retired full bird Colonel with combat bonafides as a woman, her appointment after losing to Kyrsten Sinema to McCain's seat was typical Arizona politics. Everyone seems to have scoffed at this if the polls hold through the summer. It feels like the white people in that state are sick of Trump.

Arizonans seem to be getting bluer overall despite the red state nature of everything there.

Of all the politiians I've met over the past few years, she was the nicest. Honest in her answers and didn't seem to be faking it either. And honestly didn't seem like she was a dyed in the wool republican at all. Had a couple of interesting points about immigration and minorities that don't seem to jibe with the far right. (These are probably because as a Border state it's easier to realize that it isn't just BUILD THE WALL)

ETA: I also don't know how much she has changed her public platform since I met her, which was in the buildup to the SInema race.

Johnnie wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 11:18 am Damn. It was just a month or so ago (I think) where this was only 8 points.

McSally is fucking hated there. Despite being a retired full bird Colonel with combat bonafides as a woman, her appointment after losing to Kyrsten Sinema to McCain's seat was typical Arizona politics. Everyone seems to have scoffed at this if the polls hold through the summer. It feels like the white people in that state are sick of Trump.

Arizonans seem to be getting bluer overall despite the red state nature of everything there.

Yeah, I don't know how blue it would be against a more reasonable Republican in a future election, but you can pretty much look at say about 8 to 10 counties around the country (Maricopa, AZ; Oakland and Macomb, MI; Washoe, NV; Orange, CA; Cobb, GA; Nassau, NY, etc.) where the GOP was dominant since the 80s (if not since even before then) that have basically fled the GOP and Trump, which helped lead to the House wipeout in 2018 and which will play a big role in the next election as well. They are mostly educated, but diverse and I think it's mostly for that reason that they're rejecting Trump. If you live with African-Americans, Latinos, Asians, work with them and have them as friends and see those groups being demonized by Trump, most reasonable, educated people will reject that. (This is another reason why I don't think it's necessarily unfair to paint Trump supporters as largely uneducated.)

brian wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 11:27 amYeah, I don't know how blue it would be against a more reasonable Republican in a future election, but you can pretty much look at say about 8 to 10 counties around the country (Maricopa, AZ; Oakland and Macomb, MI; Washoe, NV; Orange, CA; Cobb, GA; Nassau, NY, etc.) where the GOP was dominant since the 80s (if not since even before then) that have basically fled the GOP and Trump, which helped lead to the House wipeout in 2018 and which will play a big role in the next election as well. They are mostly educated, but diverse and I think it's mostly for that reason that they're rejecting Trump.

I don't know if they have exactly "fled" Trump. The Dems won a lot of close elections in those areas (at least in Orange County), and then lost the special election to replace Katie Hill.

These are the people I have in mind when I fear the potential consequences if Dems explicitly adopted a "raise everyone's taxes to fund better services" platform.

brian wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 11:27 am

Johnnie wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 11:18 am Damn. It was just a month or so ago (I think) where this was only 8 points.

McSally is fucking hated there. Despite being a retired full bird Colonel with combat bonafides as a woman, her appointment after losing to Kyrsten Sinema to McCain's seat was typical Arizona politics. Everyone seems to have scoffed at this if the polls hold through the summer. It feels like the white people in that state are sick of Trump.

Arizonans seem to be getting bluer overall despite the red state nature of everything there.

Yeah, I don't know how blue it would be against a more reasonable Republican in a future election, but you can pretty much look at say about 8 to 10 counties around the country (Maricopa, AZ; Oakland and Macomb, MI; Washoe, NV; Orange, CA; Cobb, GA; Nassau, NY, etc.) where the GOP was dominant since the 80s (if not since even before then) that have basically fled the GOP and Trump, which helped lead to the House wipeout in 2018 and which will play a big role in the next election as well. They are mostly educated, but diverse and I think it's mostly for that reason that they're rejecting Trump. If you live with African-Americans, Latinos, Asians, work with them and have them as friends and see those groups being demonized by Trump, most reasonable, educated people will reject that. (This is another reason why I don't think it's necessarily unfair to paint Trump supporters as largely uneducated.)

There are some important key counties in PA, outside of Philly that went blue for the first time in forever. I'd like to see poll numbers there, as well.

If you've got a Democrat up 18 points in Maricopa County, I'd say "fled" is an OK verb. But I understand what you're saying. Fortunately, I don't think any mainstream Dems have ever floated a proposal to raise everyone's taxes. The lowest threshold I've ever seen for a tax hike proposal was $250K. That might cost votes from some suburban swing voters, but probably not in an election with Trump on the ballot.

Oh, and the subtle thing in all of this: The Lincoln Project is doing fucking work right now.

ETA:

brian wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 11:38 am If you've got a Democrat up 18 points in Maricopa County, I'd say "fled" is an OK verb. But I understand what you're saying. Fortunately, I don't think any mainstream Dems have ever floated a proposal to raise everyone's taxes. The lowest threshold I've ever seen for a tax hike proposal was $250K. That might cost votes from some suburban swing voters, but probably not in an election with Trump on the ballot.

Sure. But most races aren't heroic studly Dem astronaut vs especially hated Republican.

Mark Kelly isn't your average Dem.

Granted, but I spend enough time in AZ and know enough people there (as does Johnnie, obvs) to know that is just the tip of the iceberg. Trump is unpopular in Maricopa as well (relative to an average Republican from the last few elections) and Arizona is going to be a tough win for Trump in 2020. If they're spending money having to defend Georgia, Texas, Arizona, North Carolina, etc. then they're in trouble. Biden only needs to flip PA and MI from the 2016 map to win the election.

(FWIW, Biden is up 7 points in AZ in the latest polls I've seen there.)

Just reading more, this McSally seat is up again in 2022. So there's some idea that Ducey did this to run for the seat himself at that time. Time will tell, I guess.

brian wrote: ↑Tue May 19, 2020 12:22 pm Granted, but I spend enough time in AZ and know enough people there (as does Johnnie, obvs) to know that is just the tip of the iceberg. Trump is unpopular in Maricopa as well (relative to an average Republican from the last few elections) and Arizona is going to be a tough win for Trump in 2020. If they're spending money having to defend Georgia, Texas, Arizona, North Carolina, etc. then they're in trouble. Biden only needs to flip PA and MI from the 2016 map to win the election.

I figure Arizona will be a battleground this time around. I've been considering moving down to AZ for a couple of weeks before the election to volunteer for Kelly and/or Biden.

Between Don Jr's book and this one, there's gotta be a bunch of warehouses full of these things somewhere:

Good. Fuck that guy.

That facial expression looks like he knows he's full of shit, but I think we all know he lacks ample self-awareness.

DaveInSeattle wrote: ↑Thu May 21, 2020 3:16 pm Between Don Jr's book and this one, there's gotta be a bunch of warehouses full of these things somewhere:

They often give away books at rallies and events to get rid of them. They buy huge numbers of books so they can get the books on the NYTimes Best Seller list and make them appear like they hold popularly held beliefs. Probably makes it so libraries have to buy more, too.

Lindsey Graham...in his own words.

'

I'd love to sit with 2015 Graham and see his reaction to the 2018-2020 clips.

The Sybian wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 12:05 pm I'd love to sit with 2015 Graham and see his reaction to the 2018-2020 clips.

“FUCK, they found the tapes.”

Johnnie wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 4:19 pm

That's a nice message, but nobody will take the narrator seriously with that accent.

The Sybian wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 4:31 pm

Johnnie wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 4:19 pm

That's a nice message, but nobody will take the narrator seriously with that accent.

Hey!

(I actually thought it was a bit much)

Steve King loses his primary.

I was gloating about that so much on Twitter I forgot to gloat about it here.