Car buying

Brontoburglar · Post by **Brontoburglar** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:25 pm

brian wrote:
mister d wrote:I assume this is more about a disposable salesman about to be disposed of if he doesn't fix his mistake, right?
Maybe, but $1,100 on a new Escape is not a crazy amount of money. I don't know the specifics of the deal in question, but I do know quite a bit about Ford's consumer pricing since I have family who are Ford retirees. Basically, there are three levels of discount pricing you can get (with some exceptions, which I'll talk about in a minute). Those are A-Plan, X-Plan and Z-Plan.

A-Plan is for current Ford employees and Z-Plan is for Ford retirees. This are basically the best discounts you can get. They're non-negotiable, but if the dealer really wants your business they can throw in free oil changes for life or some other types of add-ons and crazy shit like that. The price of the car is the price of the car though. Usually a couple hundred to maybe, maybe like $500 over dealer invoice. Essentially the dealer gets a few hundred bucks. The commissions on these suck, but the upside is that you don't spend a lot of time on them. It's like buying a gallon of milk from the store.

The X-Plan is essentially a friends and family or Ford supplier discount. Basically anyone with a pulse can get an X-Plan discount and it too is essentially not negotiable, but here's the point of all that setup. Because of that, the X-Plan price is essentially what a dealer will usually agree to let the car go for for a non A Plan or Z Plan customer UNLESS they're really just trying like hell to get the cars off their lot and they discount it even cheaper (it happens).

Depending on how nice the car is it's a few hundred to maybe a couple thousand more than dealer invoice. That's unless the car is some kind of super in-demand model, which I doubt would apply to a 2015 Escape.

So again, without knowing too much about it, I assume she was given the X-Plan price (on an Escape $1100 or so off sounds about right). But if so, that's pretty much what she could have negotiated the price down to. So if all my assumptions are correct, this is just a shady fucking dude or dealership trying to get some extra money.

This makes sense. I'll get the full story tonight in person as they're coming over. I haven't been told if they called her back today. My guess is no.

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 10:29 am

So frustrated with the process. Trying to get a lease quote out of these fuckers is like pulling teeth. We ended up walking out of a couple dealerships because they kept us waiting do fucking long to get us a price. The sleazy sales manager would come out, promising a deal so good we won't even need to leave or see other cars. OK, give me a fucking offer then. Asked for an e-mail when you are done number crunching. Never hear from them again.

We spent a good amount of time with a Hyundai salesman who was really good. He explained he couldn't give us a lease quote without us picking a specific car. My wife wanted to know what the monthly nut was before deciding on a trim or optional features. He said they don't want to haggle unless it is a deal for a specific car, as they have to go through the negotiations over again. Makes sense, I respect that.

Talk to the manager, tell him we are in a hurry because we want to see a Mazda 6 before deciding. "You don't need to. I'm going to make you a deal so good, you won't even need to see the Mazda." My wife mentioned some features she wanted that the chosen car lacked, he said he could throw them in no charge. Alright. We decided we prefer a Sonata anyways, we are ready to go. 10 minutes later, manager comes out, sits down with another couple at the desk next to us. He completely ignores us. Fine, I get you want to make the other people feel like they have your attention. I'm sitting 3 fucking feet away from the guy, 20 minutes go by, not a fucking word to me. I have the kids with me, and we are on borrowed time with them. I get up, go to the office to see the salesman. He hold up some papers, keeps saying to wait a minute, he has the numbers right there, but he can't present, we have to wait for the manager. I tell him I have to leave, e-mail me the numbers, and I'll come back that evening.

No e-mail. 2 days later, a form e-mail with the subject line: "A personal message for you." 2 minutes later, another e-mail from the salesman's address. A form letter signed by a manager who doesn't even work there anymore. Fuck them. I was ready to buy. They are so fucking eager to badger you and keep you in the showroom, then they suck balls when you are ready to buy.

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 10:36 am

To separate from the rant above, I got an "online quote" from another dealer. Bottom line, no negotiation price. It is $8,000 below MSRP, and sounds too good to be true. My old man thinks they cut out the salesman and save off not paying commission, and they don't have to deal with negotiation.This is a link to the quote. There are a bunch of additional fees, but I think they are all excluded from the sticker price anyways, so not an additional cost. Am I missing something here? Going tonight to see if this is legit.

What is the better option, lease to own or finance a purchase if I can get 0% APR? Lease you can walk out at the end of the term, but purchase you don't have mileage restrictions, and don't have to pay for superficial scrapes and dents. Otherwise, what are the benefits of one over the other?

Steve of phpBB · Post by **Steve of phpBB** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:46 am

The Sybian wrote:What is the better option, lease to own or finance a purchase if I can get 0% APR? Lease you can walk out at the end of the term, but purchase you don't have mileage restrictions, and don't have to pay for superficial scrapes and dents. Otherwise, what are the benefits of one over the other?

This sounds like a perfect place for letmegooglethatforyou.com

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:08 pm

I did the numbers a little bit ago on a Camry and the lease-to-own was more expensive than buying outright, I assume because of the escape clause. And because they assume people who lease will forever be enthralled by the new car option. We get a letter per month trying to get us to trade-in our 2013 Rav 4 for a 2015 using the logic of "we'll lower your monthly payment by $20" or some shit like that. Seems predatory as fuck.

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 3:19 pm

Steve of phpBB wrote:
The Sybian wrote:What is the better option, lease to own or finance a purchase if I can get 0% APR? Lease you can walk out at the end of the term, but purchase you don't have mileage restrictions, and don't have to pay for superficial scrapes and dents. Otherwise, what are the benefits of one over the other?
This sounds like a perfect place for letmegooglethatforyou.com

I read some articles, but prefer advice from people I have for the most part never met yet inexplicably trust. I think the difference is paying a relatively small monthly cost with a lump sum buyout after 3 years, vs spreading the buyout price over the course of 6 years,

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 3:28 pm

You're also paying a large sum upfront in a lease (or rolling it into your payment). There's a lot of fees and "oh, you don't qualify for that advertised price because you didn't graduate college in the last 18 months" involved.

devilfluff · Post by **devilfluff** » Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:33 pm

Lease to own is ALWAYS more expensive.

Car rates are so low right now it's ridiculous. My rate is 1.59%, and that is not even a promotional rate...

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 6:24 am

devilfluff wrote:Lease to own is ALWAYS more expensive.

Car rates are so low right now it's ridiculous. My rate is 1.59%, and that is not even a promotional rate...

Someone told my wife never to buy unless she could get 0% APR. I see ads for 0%, but I don't know if that is an option here. I went to the dealership with the online quotes. They have someone call to make an appointment, say they will be expecting me and have my selected car ready and the price set. The manager and salesman had no idea what I was talking about. Even after showing them the e-mail. The manager said he would honor the deal, but had no idea that his own website was giving quotes. What the fuck? How is the car dealer industry so fucked up?

Post by **brian** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:18 am

The Sybian wrote:
devilfluff wrote:Lease to own is ALWAYS more expensive.

Car rates are so low right now it's ridiculous. My rate is 1.59%, and that is not even a promotional rate...
Someone told my wife never to buy unless she could get 0% APR. I see ads for 0%, but I don't know if that is an option here. I went to the dealership with the online quotes. They have someone call to make an appointment, say they will be expecting me and have my selected car ready and the price set. The manager and salesman had no idea what I was talking about. Even after showing them the e-mail. The manager said he would honor the deal, but had no idea that his own website was giving quotes. What the fuck? How is the car dealer industry so fucked up?

That's true now in the world of a zero fed funds rate, but that won't always be true. Though that goes to show just how long cheap money has been a thing. Hopefully I didn't just give Howard an aneurysm.

HaulCitgo · Post by **HaulCitgo** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:10 am

Off subject but what IS the Fed waiting for? Recession has been over for 3 years at least. Economy is humming along pretty good. Eventually there will be a normal economic downcycle and there wont be a whole lot of tools left. Raise the rates you dumb fux.

And I will always hit the mileage lease limits which makes returning the car unworkable. The limits are just plain too low and ive generally had 2-5 mile commutes over the past ten years. More of a cash deal on a used car type of buyer.

Post by **brian** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:12 am

HaulCitgo wrote:Off subject but what IS the Fed waiting for? Recession has been over for 3 years at least. Economy is humming along pretty good. Eventually there will be a normal economic downcycle and there wont be a whole lot of tools left. Raise the rates you dumb fux.

Yup. But they're taking their cues from Wall Street.

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:55 am

HaulCitgo wrote:Off subject but what IS the Fed waiting for? Recession has been over for 3 years at least. Economy is humming along pretty good. Eventually there will be a normal economic downcycle and there wont be a whole lot of tools left. Raise the rates you dumb fux.

And I will always hit the mileage lease limits which makes returning the car unworkable. The limits are just plain too low and ive generally had 2-5 mile commutes over the past ten years. More of a cash deal on a used car type of buyer.

My wife doesn't like monthly payments, so we have purchased used cars cash, but it just isn't worth it. The amount you have to pay for a used car now, you might as well buy new. I'm thinking financing purchase will be the option.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:13 pm

Not liking monthly payments is a bad argument for picking used over new right now.

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:17 pm

mister d wrote:Not liking monthly payments is a bad argument for picking used over new right now.

That's why we aren't looking used.

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Sun Dec 20, 2015 3:38 pm

I'll be getting back to the States in February. I kind of want a new car. (Hey! Didn't you want one when you started this thread and didn't pull the trigger? Yes, I did. But shut up.)

My taste-du-jour is the Cadillac CTS Wagon. It was only made during 2011-2014. Americans don't like wagons and obviously I'll have to get one used. Anyone have any opinions on it I should know about? It's certainly something I can't work on myself because that's how vehicles are these days. It seems affordable enough-ish. I saw one the other day and really liked it.

(I wish it could be the CTS V with the Corvette engine, but I'm not dropping 60 grand on a car ever.)

govmentchedda · Post by **govmentchedda** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 7:57 am

I leased a CTS a few years back. It was a fun ride. No idea if it's reliable, as I didn't keep it post-lease.

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:34 pm

Johnnie wrote: My taste-du-jour is the Cadillac CTS Wagon. It was only made during 2011-2014. Americans don't like wagons and obviously I'll have to get one used. Anyone have any opinions on it I should know about? It's certainly something I can't work on myself because that's how vehicles are these days. It seems affordable enough-ish. I saw one the other day and really liked it.

Wagon? You looking to drive the kids to hockey practice?

BSF21 · Post by **BSF21** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:37 pm

The Sybian wrote:
Johnnie wrote: My taste-du-jour is the Cadillac CTS Wagon. It was only made during 2011-2014. Americans don't like wagons and obviously I'll have to get one used. Anyone have any opinions on it I should know about? It's certainly something I can't work on myself because that's how vehicles are these days. It seems affordable enough-ish. I saw one the other day and really liked it.
Wagon? You looking to drive the kids to hockey practice?

That CTSV Wagon beats a Ferarri California in a quarter mile. Lot of power in an unassuming package.

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:44 pm

BSF21 wrote:
The Sybian wrote:
Johnnie wrote: My taste-du-jour is the Cadillac CTS Wagon. It was only made during 2011-2014. Americans don't like wagons and obviously I'll have to get one used. Anyone have any opinions on it I should know about? It's certainly something I can't work on myself because that's how vehicles are these days. It seems affordable enough-ish. I saw one the other day and really liked it.
Wagon? You looking to drive the kids to hockey practice?
That CTSV Wagon beats a Ferarri California in a quarter mile. Lot of power in an unassuming package.

For when you are running late to the kids hockey practice?

Rush2112 · Post by **Rush2112** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:56 pm

Dude, you're moving to ABQ. You can pick up a Impala lowrider cheap bro.

BSF21 · Post by **BSF21** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 2:07 pm

The Sybian wrote:
BSF21 wrote:
The Sybian wrote:
Johnnie wrote: My taste-du-jour is the Cadillac CTS Wagon. It was only made during 2011-2014. Americans don't like wagons and obviously I'll have to get one used. Anyone have any opinions on it I should know about? It's certainly something I can't work on myself because that's how vehicles are these days. It seems affordable enough-ish. I saw one the other day and really liked it.
Wagon? You looking to drive the kids to hockey practice?
That CTSV Wagon beats a Ferarri California in a quarter mile. Lot of power in an unassuming package.

For when you are running late to the kids hockey practice?

Almost lost a computer monitor to spit take. +1.

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 2:22 pm

Treat it as a post European influence thing.

I get passed on the autobahn by more wagons than any other car out here. And I'm doing 170 kph (105 mph) most of the time.

Americans don't like wagons. Most Americans are dumb. It's ok.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 2:51 pm

I WAS HEADIN TO KELLYS AND THIS KID ON 1A PASSED ME IN A WICKED HAHT STATION WAGON GOIN LIKE 105 KID

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:26 pm

Nobody goes to Kelly's on 1A.

WHAT AH YOU? RUHTAHDED?

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:37 pm

Speaking of, it took me 4 or 5 googles but I figured out why you picked that quote. Description even came with a nice diagram.

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:41 pm

You're welcome.

Also, Urban Dictionary is a thing.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:58 pm

I didn't even know where to start. Just "hmmm, that seems like an innocuous quote, there has to be more to it".

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 9:31 pm

Oh hey, it's me again. Just changing my mind.

So my cousin bought a 2013 Hyundai Sonata. After an exhaustive search for a second vehicle after he sold his Firebird, he settled on that one. I got to drive it around while I was visiting. The ride was ridiculously smooth and for what he paid (just over 13 grand before tax, title, and whatever else) makes it a much better option than the Cadillac I really want.

Anyhoo, I see that they make a hybrid. Using Auto Trader, I find a 2015, new, that's at $18,715 (from the Hyundai dealer, no less!) despite the MSRP being $27,115. Why such a steep price drop off? Because the 2017s are hitting the market? It only has 42 miles so it wasn't a company car. I feel like I'm missing something. I also feel I can get that car cheaper.

If I go to the dealer and start playing the game, what's my strategy? Do I put down a down payment? I've always heard that's just pissing away money. Since it is new, don't I qualify for like 0% interest or any other special reduction bonuses? What should I do?

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Sun Feb 21, 2016 10:18 pm

Johnnie wrote:Oh hey, it's me again. Just changing my mind.

So my cousin bought a 2013 Hyundai Sonata. After an exhaustive search for a second vehicle after he sold his Firebird, he settled on that one. I got to drive it around while I was visiting. The ride was ridiculously smooth and for what he paid (just over 13 grand before tax, title, and whatever else) makes it a much better option than the Cadillac I really want.

Anyhoo, I see that they make a hybrid. Using Auto Trader, I find a 2015, new, that's at $18,715 (from the Hyundai dealer, no less!) despite the MSRP being $27,115. Why such a steep price drop off? Because the 2017s are hitting the market? It only has 42 miles so it wasn't a company car. I feel like I'm missing something. I also feel I can get that car cheaper.

If I go to the dealer and start playing the game, what's my strategy? Do I put down a down payment? I've always heard that's just pissing away money. Since it is new, don't I qualify for like 0% interest or any other special reduction bonuses? What should I do?

That seems really low, I'd look into that. The 2017s don't come out until August or September, right? We got a 2015 Sonata last October. The 2016s were just out, but we could only get he package my wife wanted in a 2015. I would have thought the price on 2015s would have been a bigger discount from the 2016s, but not much. I love the car. Super comfortable, and a great ride. The 2015 is a significantly different car body design than the 2013, but I don't know if the mechanical aspects are different. My parents have a 2013 Sonata, and I like the cabin arrangement much better in the '15, plus I think it's a much nicer looking car.

rass · Post by **rass** » Mon Feb 22, 2016 6:32 am

Oh, Syb...

Brontoburglar · Post by **Brontoburglar** » Mon Feb 22, 2016 6:54 pm

rass wrote:Oh, Syb...

It's too perfect. So many possibilities.

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Mon Feb 22, 2016 10:20 pm

What am I missing with both of your replies?

Also, went to the dealer today. Total shitshow. The MSRP was jacked up, the "out the door" price was too much, and basically everything about the ad on the dealer website was bullshit. The guy trying to sell me the car was 19. I found that funny.

The most aggravating thing though? How the math just couldn't ever add up just once. There must be an entire legion of people that are atrocious at math. I get the shitty negotiating tactics, but my god, when I'm multiplying monthly payments and it adds up to more than the price, WTF? Why is buying a car this difficult?

devilfluff · Post by **devilfluff** » Mon Feb 22, 2016 10:45 pm

Johnnie wrote:The most aggravating thing though? How the math just couldn't ever add up just once. There must be an entire legion of people that are atrocious at math. I get the shitty negotiating tactics, but my god, when I'm multiplying monthly payments and it adds up to more than the price, WTF? Why is buying a car this difficult?

You took interest into account, I'll assume...

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:24 am

Of course. So the "out the door" price was $21,058. (I was not going above $18,700). I get a piece of paper back with a payment option written on the bottom:

84 months. $203-$216 per month with $6000 down.

So...I'd pay between $17,052 & $18,144 on a $15,058 loan. Or between $1,994 & $3,068 in financing charges. That's between 13% and 20%! My credit score is good and I was preapproved for around 3.15% through USAA (which itself is bullshit because my credit is immaculate but since I don't buy stuff on credit, I'm a high risk for credit companies). That's only $474. Stupidly, and this is my mistake, I let them run my credit and I was in the top tier which was 3.49%. And I only got those figures after asking what my APR was several times.

I call them on it. I get "Well, those are just there as a guideline. Our finance department handles the payment."

So why the fuck did you give me broken math if it's not your department? And not for nothing.....84 months!?!? Really, mother fuckers?

"I'm not keeping this car for 7 years. You realize that, right?"

"Those numbers will be worked out by the finance department."

So I got up and left. Even got some condescension on the way out. "Well, enjoy driving your Jeep then."

There's more to it too. That was just the final part of the interaction after the bullshit hour spent there.

For reference, here's the vehicle.. And see the multiple $1,000 offers? All bullshit. And see the $27,115 asking price? It was really $30,016 on their MSRP sheet. Or was houdini'd on there. They had some sort of "southwest package" that included tint and pin stripping! Of which I wanted no part.

But I do remember, during that final offer, the "Hyundai offer" jumped to $5,000 and a "preferred customer" offer was $5,500. Now take the $27,115 figure (which is from their website and MADE Guides, tack on 3% New Mexico sales tax, and vendor fees and you're somewhere in the ballpark I offered.

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:04 am

Well, interest rates are not calculated on a total of the loan value, so that 474 number is not correct at all. That's not how you do it. Given your numbers, you'd pay about 1,700 in interest over the life of a 84-month loan (which they tell you to get the payment down - a shorter loan will likely have a better interest rate as well).

That's 3%, or wahtever, per year, compounded monthly, so of course it's going to be higher than the main loan rate and you aren't just paying your interest rate times loan value.

I think everyone here would LOVE it if we only had to pay 5% interest on the total value of our homes or cars.

Also, if you don't buy stuff on credit your credit isn't immaculate.

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Tue Feb 23, 2016 1:02 pm

Well, shit. I just looked at Google and the math wasn't broken at all. A $15,058 loan with 3.49% interest rate over 84 months is $202 a month. Wow. I've been out of school too long.

I need to commit the equation to memory or download an app that computes this stuff for me.

Well, I can still fall on the shady misrepresentation of what the actual cost would be. And the fact that they didn't want to give me my APR despite running my credit. I guess that put me on tilt when looking at their numbers.

As for my credit score, I don't see what the point of having a good credit score is when it's up to complete interpretation by the issuing credit agency. If I'm rocking an 800 (now slightly under that) I would think that that would be good enough to warrant a better interest rate.

Post by **brian** » Tue Feb 23, 2016 1:11 pm

Should never do a car loan of more than 60 months, pretty much regardless of the deal or the interest rate. (even arguably at 0 percent though offering more than 60 mo at 0 percent is unheard of and if you were able to get it, possibly defensible for a longer loan term.)

If you can't afford a car on a 60 mo loan, you can't afford the car. (I'm not saying you wanted the 84 mo loan, I'm just saying it definitely sounds like some shady shit trying to get you to pay a bunch of interest and preying on suckers.)

BSF21 · Post by **BSF21** » Tue Feb 23, 2016 1:17 pm

Pay cash if possible. If not, front as much as you can and pay the rest off as quickly as possible. Car payments suck.

wlu_lax6 · Post by **wlu_lax6** » Tue Feb 23, 2016 1:19 pm

Is there a service that matches service members/state department folks coming and going. Basically Johnnie is moving to Zona and Timmy is leaving Zona. Johnnie buys Timmy's car. Heck Johnnie buys Timmy's TV, dishes, glass wear, and such. Johnnie gets a good deal and the US of A can reduce the amount of stuff it has to ship around the world when Johnnie goes from Germany to his next station.

Call Billy Water Ski STAT

Also doesn't TrueCar have a military subsite?