govmentchedda wrote:DSafetyGuy wrote:govmentchedda wrote:The line is consent, in my opinion.
Any worries about the de-humanizing women aspect of the GIF? Like, would you tell your son it's okay to talk about her that way, since clearly, the GIF his about seeing her nipples through her shirt (and she should have known better than to wear those clothes)? It takes a woman and pretty much treats her only as a sex object, right? If an equally talented woman with a different body type was in the same circumstances, would this GIF have been made, much less celebrated?
I just am curious how we, as individuals and as a society, deal with this stuff and how we parse "this is okay"/"this is not" because the acts we are currently decrying start somewhere as smaller acts like this, no?
You raise good questions. I'm not really sure if this is the beginning of a slope that leads to something worse. It might be, but I don't know that I'm willing to say that it is. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that there is a lot behind the scenes that I don't even consider (as a white hetero male) that creates an unsavory environment. However, does that mean that we have to stop communicating about what we find attractive? I guess I don't subscribe to the level of feminism that would have all of us not acknowledge what we are aroused by something. That being said, if it does I'll change. My ability to communicate about someone I find attractive isn't worth someone else feeling threatened.
I have less concern about the de-humanizing aspect of this particular event since it was in a public place. I get that that explanation may not make much sense. I know nothing more about what happened than that .gif shows. My initial reaction is that she knew what she was wearing, not that this was a mistake in wardrobe choice.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean when you say, "okay to talk about her that way". No, I would not tell my sons that it is okay to talk women in the way you seem to imply. I'm at what I think is the very end of innocence with my older two boys (11 and 10 yo). We've had a few talks with them and they are still embarrassed to even talk about sex. For me, I think the thing for me with my boys is to act in a manner that I would want them to act. That doesn't mean that I would have them participate in the adult conversations that I have with friends, but I also don't think that those conversations both here and in "real life" come anywhere near what anyone would describe as rape culture.
To be clear, I'm not trying to say I have an issue (or want to start an issue) with any particular Swamper. I'm looking to get deeper understanding about how we act. And, I assure you, no matter that brian appreciated the windbreaker I sent him in the "Swamper Acts of Kindness" thread, I know I'm not the nicest guy on the planet and have certainly done stuff like sharing lewd thoughts about photos on the internet. (I remember doing a well-received "caption this" in an earlier iteration of the Swamp where the photo was six female college football fans at a tailgate party and I described one of them as having negotiated free attendance at the party for the group by performing oral on the RV owner.)
I don't think the GIF was made and posted here to start a conversation about Sweden's social mores, but was more "hey look at this woman's tits" and Steve's "Oh, Sweden" was along those lines. I didn't realize it was actually see-through dress but thought it was a stretchy black top that, with the lights, basically becomes see-through for still photography (you can google "Pamela Anderson roast" and click "images" if you don't know what I'm talking about).
We can communicate that she's attractive by saying "she's beautiful", not by "dude, you can see her nips".
I don't know, either. But we have (essentially) "hey, nice tits" as okay in this thread while "you can't call a kid fat" as not okay in another thread. Neither person being written about knows about it, so some would call them both "victimless crimes". Or is the difference she chose to wear that and the kid had no choice about his weight (or at least doesn't know enough to make a well-informed choice) even though neither person knows what is being written about them (and she certainly could have chosen to wear that in order to gain notoriety).
And, does having the "nice tits" eventually lead to sexual harassment? I mean, how does someone like Bill O'Reilly start out, for lack of a better term?