Trump Administration Meltdown Thread...

Gunpowder · Post by **Gunpowder** » Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:04 pm

The best way to not get accused of racism over every little thing is stop saying racist-ass shit.

Nonlinear FC · Post by **Nonlinear FC** » Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:07 pm

Is it perjury if you lie about a question you weren't even asked? Because Franken didn't ask Sessions a direct question about his contact with Russians during the campaign.

He asked Sessions how he would handle himself as AG if there were ongoing Russian investigations. Sessions then went out of his way to say he hadn't had any contact with Russians during the campaign.

Um, thanks for that, but that's not what I asked. ??

Nonlinear FC · Post by **Nonlinear FC** » Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:11 pm

DaveInSeattle wrote:
rass wrote:
Ok....I'm probably the bad guy here...but am I the only one who has a real issue with Trump's stunt with the Spec Ops Widow moment?

Just that morning, he was saying "Hey, this plan was in place when I got here, and the generals screwed up, and its not my fault". And then he trots her out, and makes her stand there until he says its ok to sit down, and then crows about a "world record" (for what, exactly?).

And, of course, our wonderful DC pundits eat it up with a spoon, saying how "Presidential" it was, despite the lie he told about how successful the mission was, and how how useful intelligence was gathered (NBC News reported that "nothing useful was recovered").

Let me with a bad taste in my mouth, but I guess the bar for Ol' President Pussy Grabber has been lowered to "He spoke in complete sentences for an our with out pissing himself".

I missed this yesterday. No, you are absolutely not the only one pissed by that. I know a TON of military folks are very VERY pissed about it.

Did you know that they invited her to attend this speech the day after her husband was killed? Fucking sub-human pieces of shit. Exploiting her grief for the purpose of propaganda.

Joe K · Post by **Joe K** » Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:21 pm

sancarlos wrote:
Steve of phpBB wrote:
tennbengal wrote:People in the Trump cabinet and former Trump campaign sure lie a lot with regard to Russia.
It's funny - I still don't think there was any actual collaboration between the Trump campaign and Russia (for one reason, what would they need to collaborate on?). But these strange Russia connections and interactions just keep coming up, as do the lies about the contacts, the hysterical reaction to reports about the contacts, and the lack of any other explanation for how these Russia-connected folks just seem to keep popping up.

This is getting like that Onion article - http://www.theonion.com/blogpost/why-do ... cock-11150
Co-sign. Well said, Steve. You summarized my thoughts on this in a way I was having trouble articulating myself.

My theory is that because so few Washington insiders supported Trump, he wound up hiring guys like Manafort, Page and Flynn who had a lot of baggage. Both Manafort and Page (and to a lesser extent, Flynn) had significant business interests in Russia prior to working for Trump. I suspect that they never really thought Trump would win and stayed in touch with Russian officials during the campaign in an attempt to grease the skids for their return to their prior businesses.

As for Russia, I doubt that Putin would specifically recruit a buffoon like Trump who few gave any chance of winning when he entered the race. Instead, I suspect that Russia decided to fuck with Hillary as payback for her hawkish stance on Russia and the meddling that we did in Russian politics while she was Secretary of State. I'm not sure that the Russian government ever thought Trump could win but instead just wanted to make things miserable for her.

The two key unanswered questions are whether the Trump campaign specifically coordinated with Russia on the release of any hacked materials and/or whether the campaign made any promises to Russia in exchange for the hacking. I still don't think there's been evidence of either of those, but that's what it would likely take to actually rise to impeachment level.

tennbengal · Post by **tennbengal** » Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:25 pm

Or whether trump owes Russian banks or Russia itself money...

P.D.X. · Post by **P.D.X.** » Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:29 pm

Joe K wrote:As for Russia, I doubt that Putin would specifically recruit a buffoon like Trump who few gave any chance of winning when he entered the race.

Of course not 'specifically' but with Trump's alleged debts in Russia, that's a pretty damn golden opportunity. No 'recruiting' necessary.

Nonlinear FC · Post by **Nonlinear FC** » Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:40 pm

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/pow ... 202&wpmm=1

The investigation is ongoing. There are multiple sources citing multiple contacts between Trump campaign officials and Russian operatives and officials.

What else do you think was going on in these meetings other than coordinating and collaborating on some level? Just because you don't have the information to connect the dots, doesn't mean something nefarious was/is going on.

Edit: God that's a terrible sentence.

rass · Post by **rass** » Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:49 pm

Nonlinear FC wrote:https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/pow ... 202&wpmm=1

The investigation is ongoing. There are multiple sources citing multiple contacts between Trump campaign officials and Russian operatives and officials.

What else do you think was going on in these meetings other than coordinating and collaborating on some level? Just because you don't have the information to connect the dots, doesn't mean something nefarious was/is going on.

But a lot of people are connecting the dots. Using a Sharpie. And attacking anyone else who won't commit to immediately doing the same, even those who clearly aren't Trump fans.

I have no problem with letting this play out slowly, as real evidence bubbles up. This administration has shown no evidence that they'll be able to get their shit together enough to enact a cover up of something that is truly illegal/scandalous, and every false start or dead end just increases their ability to yell "#fakenews" and discount the whole story, which has so far been their best (only) defense.

Pruitt · Post by **Pruitt** » Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:53 pm

Steve of phpBB wrote:
tennbengal wrote:People in the Trump cabinet and former Trump campaign sure lie a lot with regard to Russia.
It's funny - I still don't think there was any actual collaboration between the Trump campaign and Russia (for one reason, what would they need to collaborate on?). But these strange Russia connections and interactions just keep coming up, as do the lies about the contacts, the hysterical reaction to reports about the contacts, and the lack of any other explanation for how these Russia-connected folks just seem to keep popping up.

This is getting like that Onion article - http://www.theonion.com/blogpost/why-do ... cock-11150

Just on a sidenote here - that Onion article is still one of the funniest things I have ever read. And it is something that I refer to often when confronted by extreme disingenuousness.

degenerasian · Post by **degenerasian** » Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:54 pm

There is currently a scavenger hunt going on to find the Obamacare bill. I didn't know one could hide a bill.

rass · Post by **rass** » Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:02 pm

Evil turtle joke.

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:08 pm

degenerasian wrote:
Steve of phpBB wrote:
degenerasian wrote:hmmm the definition is definitely getting broader. To me I don't think racists even consider a few 'good apples'.
It's possible to have that be your definition, of course, but I think that definition would be so narrow as to be useless. There were plenty of racists in Chicago who cheered for Ernie Banks or Minnie Minoso.
getting back to this from yesterday.

I'm just very cautious of throwing the word racist around as a label for every little thing. For example those that watched the Oscars on Sunday will recall the tour group that was surprised. The Asian girl when asked what her name was said "Yulree" Kimmel looks at her funny. "Yulree, rhymes with Jewelry" she explains.
Kimmel then askes the fiances name. "Patrick". Now that's a REAL name"

Asian-American social media exploded. Kimmel is now the most racist jerk in the world. Kimmel also mocked the name Mahershala during the show so they piled on that as well.

I hate that shit. People who make observations are not racists.

P.D.X. wrote:
degenerasian wrote:People who make observations are not racists.
Wrong.

I look at it like Louis CK. It's "mild" racism. It also comes back to intent and if you're self aware enough to realize the situation.

https://youtu.be/yzh7RtIJKZk

And if you aren't self aware, then it's well within the rights of others to call you an asshole. Also, a Louis CK bit.

https://youtu.be/9hgq6xv23Ao

Steve of phpBB · Post by **Steve of phpBB** » Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:12 pm

Nonlinear FC wrote:Is it perjury if you lie about a question you weren't even asked?

Yes.

Among other things, making a statement that goes beyond a particular question affects what questions are asked as follow-ups. A false statement is a false statement even if it goes beyond the scope of the question.

If Sessions had said in his testimony that "during the campaign I met with the Russian ambassador, but we didn't discuss the campaign," that would have enabled the committee to ask him what they did talk about, who set the meeting up, when was the meeting set up, why he decided to have the meeting, etc.

It might not actually matter whether his testimony was technically perjury, though - he may be protected from prosecution by the Speech and Debate Clause of the Constitution, since he was a sitting Senator testifying in the Senate.

Steve of phpBB · Post by **Steve of phpBB** » Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:27 pm

Johnnie wrote:
degenerasian wrote:
Steve of phpBB wrote:
degenerasian wrote:hmmm the definition is definitely getting broader. To me I don't think racists even consider a few 'good apples'.
It's possible to have that be your definition, of course, but I think that definition would be so narrow as to be useless. There were plenty of racists in Chicago who cheered for Ernie Banks or Minnie Minoso.
getting back to this from yesterday.

I'm just very cautious of throwing the word racist around as a label for every little thing. For example those that watched the Oscars on Sunday will recall the tour group that was surprised. The Asian girl when asked what her name was said "Yulree" Kimmel looks at her funny. "Yulree, rhymes with Jewelry" she explains.
Kimmel then askes the fiances name. "Patrick". Now that's a REAL name"

Asian-American social media exploded. Kimmel is now the most racist jerk in the world. Kimmel also mocked the name Mahershala during the show so they piled on that as well.

I hate that shit. People who make observations are not racists.

P.D.X. wrote:
degenerasian wrote:People who make observations are not racists.
Wrong.
I look at it like Louis CK. It's "mild" racism. It also comes back to intent and if you're self aware enough to realize the situation.

This is why I don't think "racist" is a useful term in most situations. Does the premise behind the joke imply inferiority? Maybe it does and maybe it doesn't. But basing a joke on the premise "that name is uncommon around here" seems very different to me than basing a joke on the premise that "Black people are all thieves" or "Polish people are stupid."

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:30 pm

Nonlinear FC wrote:https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/pow ... 202&wpmm=1

The investigation is ongoing. There are multiple sources citing multiple contacts between Trump campaign officials and Russian operatives and officials.

What else do you think was going on in these meetings other than coordinating and collaborating on some level? Just because you don't have the information to connect the dots, doesn't mean something nefarious was/is going on.

Absolutely. I'm with Steve, in not quite understanding the political aspects of coordination. The best theory I've read, which cited an anonymous Russian official, is that Russia never expected Trump to win, but sought to damage Hillary's reputation and turn as many Americans against her as possible, to weaken her Presidency.

It seems fairly clear Trump owes substantial money to Russian government run banks, and Tillerson seems like the enormous business business connection to benefit Putin. How does Tillerson remotely have any experience or connection to be named Sec of State, other than the $500 Billion oil deal between Exxon and the Russian government that US law blocked? The first Bill Congress passed and Trump signed was a bill removing requirements to disclose natural resource deals in foreign countries. Why is that not a bigger story? Putin's abuse of the oil industry is the cornerstone to his reign. He immediately nationalized all of the oil and other natural resource companies and split them up between his friends, making instant billionaires out of shady fucks like Roman Abramovich (How do you defend your Chelsea fandom, Bengal?), and now it is believed Putin is the richest man in the world. I think all of the Russia connections boils down to abusing government positions to make a fuck ton of money. Seems the simplest explanation

If anyone is interested, Rachel Maddow did a piece several months ago explaining how Putin stole natural resource wealth from Russia. She discussed a bit about how Trump began abusing his position as Pres Elect for his personal gain. How do people not see that Trump's goal is personal wealth, and secondary goal is wealth of his friends?

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:52 pm

EnochRoot wrote:Fuck the facts. The Democrats need to go on a full-on advertising assault tying the GOP to Russia. Let the populace draw their own conclusions.

This is what the GOP and the Right have done so well. Continually telling a false narrative to the point that people believe it. I was watching a video of a Trump support rally the other day, and a guy interviewed people. The video was well over an hour, but I couldn't make it past the first woman he spoke with. She was all fired up about how horrible the country has become because of Obama. She kept saying she was never interested in politics, but looking around the last couple of years, we need to take back everything Obama took from us. He destroyed the country, and only Trump can save us. And anyone who disagrees with Trump must hate America, because all Trump has said and done is make America Great again. How can anyone be against that?

Hillary made intelligent, real world statements during the debate, and detailed her plans. Problem is, she used terms of art from the political and legal world, and 75% of the voting population didn't really understand what she was talking about. Trump made extremely broad, empty meaningless statements, and said he had the greatest ideas in the world, but he can't tell us until he is in office. People fell for the empty, stupid, emotional slogans, and somehow believe Trump is going to achieve those meaningless slogans, and that is all he is going to do, and they don't have any interest in discussing anything of substance. It's impossible to combat that. Any substance is "more of the ivy league tower, politician mumbo jumbo. Trump is a straight talker, tells it like it is!" And when Trump lies, says something insanely stupid or shows his extreme ignorance, it's a good thing, "because he isn't a polished politician," he is just like me!

Back to the raving lunatic, every reason she gave for loving Trump and hating Obama was so far removed from reality, it was frightening. Trump is going to make it safe for women to live in America now, illegals are "pouring over the border," crime is completely out of control, Trump will finally let the police do their job... She was furious that people can kill or injure police without fear of consequences. "They kill police and don't even go to trial. Trump loves the police, not like Obama" What? Cop killers aren't getting charged? She ranted about Obamacare making it so she can't afford her insurance, but Trump saved healthcare because now under Trump, a 26 year old can stay on their parents plan. Yes, Trump did that.

What really got her fired up is everything Obama took away from her. Obama made it so kids could not pray IN CATHOLIC SCHOOLS. "He took 'Merry Christmas' away from us!" He kept taking our freedom! She had a lot more packed into the five or so minutes I made it through. Amazing how fucking stupid some people are, and no amount of information can sway their emotional, fact-free beliefs.

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:57 pm

Steve of phpBB wrote:This is why I don't think "racist" is a useful term in most situations. Does the premise behind the joke imply inferiority? Maybe it does and maybe it doesn't. But basing a joke on the premise "that name is uncommon around here" seems very different to me than basing a joke on the premise that "Black people are all thieves" or "Polish people are stupid."

I agree. There's this "mission creep"-esque scope with racism that completely undermines the seriousness of it. It has amplified greatly because with social media anyone can say anything to and about anyone else at any time.

So naturally the ones who feel racism encompasses a ginormous range are going to be heard by default.

EnochRoot · Post by **EnochRoot** » Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:07 pm

The Sybian wrote:
EnochRoot wrote:Fuck the facts. The Democrats need to go on a full-on advertising assault tying the GOP to Russia. Let the populace draw their own conclusions.
This is what the GOP and the Right have done so well. Continually telling a false narrative to the point that people believe it. I was watching a video of a Trump support rally the other day, and a guy interviewed people. The video was well over an hour, but I couldn't make it past the first woman he spoke with. She was all fired up about how horrible the country has become because of Obama. She kept saying she was never interested in politics, but looking around the last couple of years, we need to take back everything Obama took from us. He destroyed the country, and only Trump can save us. And anyone who disagrees with Trump must hate America, because all Trump has said and done is make America Great again. How can anyone be against that?

Hillary made intelligent, real world statements during the debate, and detailed her plans. Problem is, she used terms of art from the political and legal world, and 75% of the voting population didn't really understand what she was talking about. Trump made extremely broad, empty meaningless statements, and said he had the greatest ideas in the world, but he can't tell us until he is in office. People fell for the empty, stupid, emotional slogans, and somehow believe Trump is going to achieve those meaningless slogans, and that is all he is going to do, and they don't have any interest in discussing anything of substance. It's impossible to combat that. Any substance is "more of the ivy league tower, politician mumbo jumbo. Trump is a straight talker, tells it like it is!" And when Trump lies, says something insanely stupid or shows his extreme ignorance, it's a good thing, "because he isn't a polished politician," he is just like me!

Back to the raving lunatic, every reason she gave for loving Trump and hating Obama was so far removed from reality, it was frightening. Trump is going to make it safe for women to live in America now, illegals are "pouring over the border," crime is completely out of control, Trump will finally let the police do their job... She was furious that people can kill or injure police without fear of consequences. "They kill police and don't even go to trial. Trump loves the police, not like Obama" What? Cop killers aren't getting charged? She ranted about Obamacare making it so she can't afford her insurance, but Trump saved healthcare because now under Trump, a 26 year old can stay on their parents plan. Yes, Trump did that.

What really got her fired up is everything Obama took away from her. Obama made it so kids could not pray IN CATHOLIC SCHOOLS. "He took 'Merry Christmas' away from us!" He kept taking our freedom! She had a lot more packed into the five or so minutes I made it through. Amazing how fucking stupid some people are, and no amount of information can sway their emotional, fact-free beliefs.

You have to play the game they've established that works so well.

tennbengal · Post by **tennbengal** » Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:48 pm

(How do you defend your Chelsea fandom, Bengal?)

I don't? I don't like Chelsea. You have me mixed up with Dave, I would think, on that front.

Pruitt · Post by **Pruitt** » Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:48 pm

EnochRoot wrote:
The Sybian wrote:
EnochRoot wrote:Fuck the facts. The Democrats need to go on a full-on advertising assault tying the GOP to Russia. Let the populace draw their own conclusions.
This is what the GOP and the Right have done so well. Continually telling a false narrative to the point that people believe it. I was watching a video of a Trump support rally the other day, and a guy interviewed people. The video was well over an hour, but I couldn't make it past the first woman he spoke with. She was all fired up about how horrible the country has become because of Obama. She kept saying she was never interested in politics, but looking around the last couple of years, we need to take back everything Obama took from us. He destroyed the country, and only Trump can save us. And anyone who disagrees with Trump must hate America, because all Trump has said and done is make America Great again. How can anyone be against that?

Hillary made intelligent, real world statements during the debate, and detailed her plans. Problem is, she used terms of art from the political and legal world, and 75% of the voting population didn't really understand what she was talking about. Trump made extremely broad, empty meaningless statements, and said he had the greatest ideas in the world, but he can't tell us until he is in office. People fell for the empty, stupid, emotional slogans, and somehow believe Trump is going to achieve those meaningless slogans, and that is all he is going to do, and they don't have any interest in discussing anything of substance.
You have to play the game they've established that works so well.

Guns! God! Good old days!

Like talking to children - anything else is too complicated, too full of "New York values."

degenerasian · Post by **degenerasian** » Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:49 pm

Trump should have a press conference with no pants. That would totally rally his base who view him as a president so cool he doesn't need to wear pants. And any democrat who blasts Trump will be seen as uncool because hey, who doesn't like a guy with no pants?

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:03 pm

Pruitt wrote:too full of "New York values."

This one is so good these days. Like what percentage of NYers are actually born, raised and never left? And that's their guy.

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:15 pm

tennbengal wrote:
(How do you defend your Chelsea fandom, Bengal?)
I don't? I don't like Chelsea. You have me mixed up with Dave, I would think, on that front.

God damn it.

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:17 pm

mister d wrote:
Pruitt wrote:too full of "New York values."
This one is so good these days. Like what percentage of NYers are actually born, raised and never left? And that's their guy.

Yep, and they hate rich Hollywood elites, but love their (alleged) Billionaire reality TV star.

Nonlinear FC · Post by **Nonlinear FC** » Thu Mar 02, 2017 5:05 pm

Dude I follow on Facebook is pretty spot on with his take about Sessions recusal:

"AG Sessions just officially recused himself from any and all matters relating to Trump/Russia or the presidential campaign.

This is a pretty big deal for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that there is cause to be believe that Trump made Sessions Attorney General for a reason. Which is to say, Sessions was likely supposed to be Trump's REAL wall. And that just crumbled."

Guy's name is Michael Arnovitz. Can't recommend more highly. Factual, level-headed... deadly.

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Thu Mar 02, 2017 5:12 pm

Internet: "Mr. Trumpachev, tear down that wall!"

Question. Has the internet started calling them United Soviet Socialist Republicans at all? I think that's a good one because I just thought of it.

L-Jam3 · Post by **L-Jam3** » Thu Mar 02, 2017 6:12 pm

I guess my "President Fredo" isn't getting any traction.

sancarlos · Post by **sancarlos** » Thu Mar 02, 2017 7:01 pm

L-Jam3 wrote:I guess my "President Fredo" isn't getting any traction.

I like it, except that Fredo never got the top job.

DaveInSeattle · Post by **DaveInSeattle** » Thu Mar 02, 2017 7:24 pm

L-Jam3 wrote:I guess my "President Fredo" isn't getting any traction.

I'm going with "President Pussy Grabber"

Rex · Post by **Rex** » Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:17 pm

Fredo's support for the Jews was pretty unwavering I thought.

rass · Post by **rass** » Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:51 pm

AOLOL

Rex · Post by **Rex** » Thu Mar 02, 2017 9:23 pm

Mindspring was always safer smh

Rush2112 · Post by **Rush2112** » Fri Mar 03, 2017 1:14 am

"You've got top secret mail!"

tennbengal · Post by **tennbengal** » Fri Mar 03, 2017 8:24 am

It has even gotten through the Today Show bubble:

tennbengal · Post by **tennbengal** » Fri Mar 03, 2017 8:28 am

And I will just leave this tweet storm dealie from David Frum here as it gets precisely to my overall concern about the lack of checks and balances and ever figuring out what happened and if or precisely how the Republicans have put the country at risk so the can dismantle health care, social security, attack the environment and line their pockets:

tennbengal · Post by **tennbengal** » Fri Mar 03, 2017 8:29 am

The tweet storm is accessible if you click through McMullin's re-tweet:

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:34 am

tennbengal wrote:It has even gotten through the Today Show bubble:

She was on Pod Save America and said that! I'm so happy she said it on The Today Show because now everyone hears it.

Pruitt · Post by **Pruitt** » Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:27 am

tennbengal wrote:And I will just leave this tweet storm dealie from David Frum here as it gets precisely to my overall concern about the lack of checks and balances and ever figuring out what happened and if or precisely how the Republicans have put the country at risk so the can dismantle health care, social security, attack the environment and line their pockets:

That is horrifying because it makes sense.

If this were happening in Honduras, we’d know what to call it. It’s happening here instead, and so we are baffled.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:32 am

I feel strongly that I don't want to read that.

Joe K · Post by **Joe K** » Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:34 am

Johnnie wrote:
tennbengal wrote:It has even gotten through the Today Show bubble:

She was on Pod Save America and said that! I'm so happy she said it on The Today Show because now everyone hears it.

All the "forgetting" is way more suspicious than the fact of the meetings themselves. I don't think we want to get to the point where meetings with ambassadors, even ones from non-allies, are viewed as misconduct. Along these lines, Claire McCaskill took a shot at Sessions yesterday by saying that in all her years in the Senate she never met with any Russians. Then people dug up Tweets of hers from 2013 saying that she was on her way to a meeting with the exact same Russian guy that Sessions met with.
So while there's nothing inherently wrong about Sessions taking that meeting, his failure to disclose it smells.

That's why evidence, or lack thereof, of coordination on the hacking or some form of blackmail or financial quid pro quo is the central question here. I don't think changes to US policy towards Russia, even if controversial, establish any wrongdoing.* It's (theoretically) possible that Trump just admires Putin because he's a strongman who favors oligarchy, terrorizes the press and indiscriminately bombs Muslims in the name of "counterterrorism."

*In an alternative universe, there wouldn't be any investigations of Trump officials meeting, pre-election, with Israeli government officials, even though Netanyahu has previously tried to influence US politics and Trump's apparent departure from the two-state solution is a huge shift in US foreign policy with potentially large national security implications.