2016 Presidential Race

[Pruitt]

Understand that by asking this next question, I am in no way saying that I hope this happens...

But considering the anger that is being stirred up, and considering the level of violence that we see on a daily basis, isn;t it surprising that there hasn't been an assassination attempt on any of these demagogues?

[brian]

Understand that by asking this next question, I am in no way saying that I hope this happens...

But considering the anger that is being stirred up, and considering the level of violence that we see on a daily basis, isn;t it surprising that there hasn't been an assassination attempt on any of these demagogues?

By someone on the left? Leon Czolgosz is not walking through that door.

[Pruitt]

Understand that by asking this next question, I am in no way saying that I hope this happens...

But considering the anger that is being stirred up, and considering the level of violence that we see on a daily basis, isn;t it surprising that there hasn't been an assassination attempt on any of these demagogues?

By someone on the left? Leon Czolgosz is not walking through that door.

Not just the left per se... Blacks, Muslims, Latinos... other than Jews, every major ethnic group (other than christian whites like Italians and Poles) has been insulted by these guys.

[brian]

I can't speak for any of those groups, but it's hard not to look at these morons as a clown show. As appalling as it is, I can't work up any real hate for any of them specifically. (Except maybe for Cruz since his face is so punchable.)

My anger and hate is reserved for the disturbingly large segment of Americans that are lapping it up.

The presidential candidates are not the first, nor sadly will they be the last group of assholes to pander to dipshits.

[howard]

Understand that by asking this next question, I am in no way saying that I hope this happens...

But considering the anger that is being stirred up, and considering the level of violence that we see on a daily basis, isn;t it surprising that there hasn't been an assassination attempt on any of these demagogues?

By someone on the left? Leon Czolgosz is not walking through that door.

He's apparently busy manning Turkey's air defense command center.

[howard]

Holy shit, the stuff Trump is getting away with. Someone with more historical knowledge than me (that's most of you), how closely does his rhetoric match those of famous recent despots?

David Duke comes to mind.

One huge factor in the failure of the media/talking head community from calling out Trump. I am convinced most other people running for president would not get away with saying the same things he says.

But, despite what many would have you believe, the USA has a state religion. That religion is the worship of money. And Trump is a high priest, an archfuckingbishop in our religion. Because he has a lot of it. Plus, he has fame, that came before this third or fourth presidential campaign (but this time it's serious!)

A mere millionaire would not get away with this rhetoric, with so little condemnation and ridicule (little compared to what it warrants.) Because he is rich and famous, he is not held to account the same way he would were he Mike Huckabee or Chris Christie.

Of course, once he says it and is not broadly condemned and ridiculed, that changes the environment, and makes such hateful racist and ignorant rhetoric 'fair game' for others to parrot. Or to express the same sentiment in more toned-down language. And thus fascism creeps forward.

Trump's special status as a super rich famous guy aside, independent of him the environment has changed. I also do not think he would get away with his current rhetoric a decade ago. Even after 9/11, we as a country didn't broadly hate muslims and middle easterners the way we do today. This wonderful trend has been ripening steadily over the past decade and a half. The nation's collective response to Paris 13/11even surprised cynical me; I didn't think we had regressed quite so far by now. Looks like we are ahead of my schedule.

[Johnnie]

He almost makes me want to register to vote. Almost.

(Check out dude's haircut to the right. That's comedy.)

[Shirley]

Holy shit, the stuff Trump is getting away with. Someone with more historical knowledge than me (that's most of you), how closely does his rhetoric match those of famous recent despots?

David Duke comes to mind.

One huge factor in the failure of the media/talking head community from calling out Trump. I am convinced most other people running for president would not get away with saying the same things he says.

But, despite what many would have you believe, the USA has a state religion. That religion is the worship of money. And Trump is a high priest, an archfuckingbishop in our religion. Because he has a lot of it. Plus, he has fame, that came before this third or fourth presidential campaign (but this time it's serious!)

A mere millionaire would not get away with this rhetoric, with so little condemnation and ridicule (little compared to what it warrants.) Because he is rich and famous, he is not held to account the same way he would were he Mike Huckabee or Chris Christie.

Of course, once he says it and is not broadly condemned and ridiculed, that changes the environment, and makes such hateful racist and ignorant rhetoric 'fair game' for others to parrot. Or to express the same sentiment in more toned-down language. And thus fascism creeps forward.

Trump's special status as a super rich famous guy aside, independent of him the environment has changed. I also do not think he would get away with his current rhetoric a decade ago. Even after 9/11, we as a country didn't broadly hate muslims and middle easterners the way we do today. This wonderful trend has been ripening steadily over the past decade and a half. The nation's collective response to Paris 13/11even surprised cynical me; I didn't think we had regressed quite so far by now. Looks like we are ahead of my schedule.

At the risk of going Godwin here, I was really thinking about the language and statements made by people like Hitler before taking over. Surely he said racist/prejudiced things, but to what extent? I assume they started somewhat hateful and grew as he gained power. I would imagine Pol Pot and others had similar trajectories.

I'm not saying Trump is one of those guys, but in many, many cases, countries did awful things against their own people and the acceptance of that hatred had to start somewhere. I'm very concerned that we seem to just be shrugging our shoulders here as he gains larger and larger crowds of supporters.

[howard]

Just looking at actual historical acts/words of Hitler doesn't necessarily invoke Goodwin's law. I'll allow it. (I'm still Chief Justice of the Swamp, right?)

Hitler did lay it all out in his book, written in 1924. So people harp on this fact, that his racism and his plan were obvious to everyone. However, very few people actually read Mein Kampf, at least not until years later, after he was in power and printed up millions of copies.

I think his antisemitic message was pretty toned down when his party was increasing in popularity and votes, from 1930-33. Much more 'make Germany great again', anti-communism, nationalistic rhetoric. I don't think they hid their anti-Jewish views, but they were not front and center.

A few months after taking power, they called for a voluntary nationwide boycott of Jewish businesses. It was not popular, and widely ignored. They took the hint, and shelved the anti-Jewish policies, while focusing on economic restoration (by massive borrowing, money printing, public works projects and suppression of trade labor movements (communist and anti-national interest). They had plenty of positions to present to the public aside from overt racism and anti-semitism during their rise and consolidation of power.

As I often mention, they didn't start killing Jews on Jan 31, 1933. Kristallnacht wasn't until November 1938; death camps didn't open until 1941, and Wansee Conference in early 1942. It took a while to bring the nation along, including the launching of the war.

There is a quick overview, from memory. It has been a while since I read Richard Evans' The Coming of the Third Reich, which covers your question in excruciating detail.

eta: another point that occurs to me is how socially acceptable casual (and not so casual) antisemitism was in Germany in the 20s and 30s. Well, not just in Germany; here too, in the UK, France, et cetera. Remember, Jews couldn't even get into medical school (other than a token or two) or work on wall street at most firms (Goldman Sachs, Lehman Bros were formed because you couldn't work at the WASP firms), much less join most country clubs in the US in the 30s.

Anti-Jewish rhetoric, as long as it stayed well short of extermination and gas chambers, was not going to lose you many votes.

[howard]

If (when) fascism comes to the USA, it will be very different than German or Italian fascism. It will be a uniquely American style. The reactions of the people will have more similarities with earlier movements in other parts of the world than the methods and talking points of the perpetrators.

To the extent that I consider fascism to have already taken root in this country, consider this. If Trump was elected, and actually implemented most of the stuff he has talked about, how would that alter life in the US for the people who really run the country? Is there anything in the Trump agenda that would greatly disturb Wall Street, the Pharma and Health insurance corps, the Military Industrial Complex? Clearly the media loves the eyeballs and the bloviating. With net migration across the Mexican border recently flipping negative, the businesses that thrive on cheap labor don't even need to import it today.

What center of power in this country would be significantly threatened by the Trump agenda? I can think of none. What does Wall Street care if millions of brown people feel threatened, liberals and progressive people get pissed off, while other millions of rednecks, racists and tea partiers feel empowered and happy? They'll keep on making bank.

In the sense of continuation of the status quo, in terms of money and power, Trump is just another piece of the continuation. Exquisitely playing the essential role of distraction; keeping the masses attentions focused on bullshit, so they don't notice or mind all the concentration of wealth and war all over the globe.

[rass]

What does Wall Street care if millions of brown people feel threatened...

They'll keep on making bank.

But where they gonna eat?

[degenerasian]

yeah no fast food, no grocery stores and lots of dirty floors.

[rass]

yeah no fast food, no grocery stores and lots of dirty floors.

Fast food?

[howard]

If President Trump could wave a magic wand, and *poof* 10 million undocumented people magically disappear, yeah that would hurt some big corporations.

But if somehow President Trump were politically able to make mass deportation a reality, the private contractors providing security guards, privatized and deputized INS agents, train and truck transports, building and staffing transit camps, hell, even feeding those millions of people while in custody and in transit, so many billions of dollars to be made. The impact on the overall business community of higher labor costs for restaurants and construction would be gradual, and offset by all that government spending on repatriation of illegals.

[Steve of phpBB]

Just looking at actual historical acts/words of Hitler doesn't necessarily invoke Goodwin's law. I'll allow it. (I'm still Chief Justice of the Swamp, right?)

Hitler did lay it all out in his book, written in 1924. So people harp on this fact, that his racism and his plan were obvious to everyone. However, very few people actually read Mein Kampf, at least not until years later, after he was in power and printed up millions of copies.

I think his antisemitic message was pretty toned down when his party was increasing in popularity and votes, from 1930-33. Much more 'make Germany great again', anti-communism, nationalistic rhetoric. I don't think they hid their anti-Jewish views, but they were not front and center.

A few months after taking power, they called for a voluntary nationwide boycott of Jewish businesses. It was not popular, and widely ignored. They took the hint, and shelved the anti-Jewish policies, while focusing on economic restoration (by massive borrowing, money printing, public works projects and suppression of trade labor movements (communist and anti-national interest). They had plenty of positions to present to the public aside from overt racism and anti-semitism during their rise and consolidation of power.

As I often mention, they didn't start killing Jews on Jan 31, 1933. Kristallnacht wasn't until November 1938; death camps didn't open until 1941, and Wansee Conference in early 1942. It took a while to bring the nation along, including the launching of the war.

There is a quick overview, from memory. It has been a while since I read Richard Evans' The Coming of the Third Reich, which covers your question in excruciating detail.

eta: another point that occurs to me is how socially acceptable casual (and not so casual) antisemitism was in Germany in the 20s and 30s. Well, not just in Germany; here too, in the UK, France, et cetera. Remember, Jews couldn't even get into medical school (other than a token or two) or work on wall street at most firms (Goldman Sachs, Lehman Bros were formed because you couldn't work at the WASP firms), much less join most country clubs in the US in the 30s.

Anti-Jewish rhetoric, as long as it stayed well short of extermination and gas chambers, was not going to lose you many votes.

My understanding is different. My understanding is that they made their anti-Semitism front and center during the rise to power and after they got it. It was tied to their anti-Bolshevism.

When my grandmother went to Germany soon after the Nazis took power, my grandfather, who was Jewish, went with her. They planned to stay for a year, but my grandfather decided he couldn't stay because of the anti-Semitism, so he left after a short time.

[howard]

I'm sure you're right. Like I said in my addendum, the baseline level of antisemitism in Germany, pre Nazis, was significant. I would guess that Nazi rhetoric could be quite strong and not be particularly alarming to the (non-Jew) population.

Let me try being more specific: I don't think that the Nazi's during their rise placed front and center a program to eliminate Judaism from Europe, much less from Germany. I don't think they were promising to deport all the Jews. Again, I may not be remembering correctly.

There is a wide gulf between being anti semitic and calling for the death or deportation of all Jews. Even between broad exclusion of Jews from professions, universities or other areas of public life, and physical eradication. And, of course you are again correct, wrapping Jews with Bolshevism, in light of the migration of lots of Jews from the Soviet empire westward.

I don't mean to say or imply that they were not openly anti-semitic. I guess I should just re-read Evans' book, and report back.

In terms of comparison to racist rhetoric of our time and place, I'm sure there are some similarities and lessons to be taken, but a lot of differences. Germany and the rest of the western world in 1930 was a much more racist and anti-semitic culture than the USA today. But the way we're going, give us a couple more election cycles.

[Shirley]

Thanks, guys. I guess there's no easy way to compare, given differences in time, culture, language, etc, but the rise of overt anti-Muslim sentiment is just striking to me. i can't recall in my lifetime hearing anything like it in the US. I guess the closest is how we used to talk about the Soviet Union, but even then, it was really about the government, not the people.

In a time when the US is clearly the most open-minded and least racist its ever been (not saying we've got it right, but it's a lot better than it used to be), this is unsettling.

Just riffing now, but I think whenever you have mass cultural prejudice, it's usually becomes times are hard and there's an easy THEM to blame everything on. While the US is generally pretty healthy and wealthy, we have been watching the gap between haves and have-nots grow to extreme levels. Nobody is starving or waiting in breadlines, but at the same time, the American Dream seems to be out of reach for a lot of people. Could that be a factor in this new resurgence of acceptable public bigotry?

[Pruitt]

Thanks, guys. I guess there's no easy way to compare, given differences in time, culture, language, etc, but the rise of overt anti-Muslim sentiment is just striking to me. i can't recall in my lifetime hearing anything like it in the US. I guess the closest is how we used to talk about the Soviet Union, but even then, it was really about the government, not the people.

In a time when the US is clearly the most open-minded and least racist its ever been (not saying we've got it right, but it's a lot better than it used to be), this is unsettling.

Just riffing now, but I think whenever you have mass cultural prejudice, it's usually becomes times are hard and there's an easy THEM to blame everything on. While the US is generally pretty healthy and wealthy, we have been watching the gap between haves and have-nots grow to extreme levels. Nobody is starving or waiting in breadlines, but at the same time, the American Dream seems to be out of reach for a lot of people. Could that be a factor in this new resurgence of acceptable public bigotry?

I hadn't really thought of the dichotomy we see right now.

Think of how quickly Gays have become accepted (by and large). In my lifetime, hell in the last 20 years, the strides are incredible.

Yet at the same time, a large minority group is being demonized by candidates running for national office.

And I think you've hit the nail on the head. The American Dream is out of reach for so many, and when people feel powerless they get angry.

But what is absolutely incredible is that Trump is so successfully banging the populist drum. A New Yorker who has spent the last 30 years bragging about his wealth. He sure doesn't look like a man of the people.

[brian]

That's the thing though. Hitler blamed the Jews (and others, but mostly Jews) for Germany's economic woes in the 1930s, but the Jews were no more to blame than immigrants or Muslims are for whatever economic woes the lower and middle classes are suffering here. It's just that people are too stupid to see that they're scapegoating people who have nothing to do with the real issues facing the country.

[Pruitt]

Trump now making fun of a reporter's handicap.

http://ktla.com/2015/11/26/trump-mocks- ... isability/

This is really turning into some sort of Howard Beale thing isnt it?

[tennbengal]

Trump now making fun of a reporter's handicap.

http://ktla.com/2015/11/26/trump-mocks- ... isability/

This is really turning into some sort of Howard Beale thing isnt it?

Gold. His base will eat that up.

[Pruitt]

Trump now making fun of a reporter's handicap.

http://ktla.com/2015/11/26/trump-mocks- ... isability/

This is really turning into some sort of Howard Beale thing isnt it?

Gold. His base will eat that up.

Without a doubt. After all, those disabled people are always demanding special treatment. Not like us hard woking regular folks.

[The Sybian]

Trump now making fun of a reporter's handicap.

http://ktla.com/2015/11/26/trump-mocks- ... isability/

This is really turning into some sort of Howard Beale thing isnt it?

Gold. His base will eat that up.

Without a doubt. After all, those disabled people are always demanding special treatment. Not like us hard woking regular folks.

Almost had to go off on a douche commenting on Hood's FB post. Basically saying the reporter deserved it, comparing it to a person who gets killed by a cop for doing something to instigate the cop. In his mind, the reporter was asking for it. He opened himself up to the ridicule by provoking Trump. Put aside the despicable argument there, and saying reporters deserve abuse for questioning the politician that douche seems to like, do we really want a President completely lacking impulse control and has the mentality of a 6th grade bully? Is he going to break out in the middle of a debate with the Chinese Premier yelling, "ching, chang chong"?

[Johnnie]

This charade has been cute to see just how pussy the media truly is, but I'm not going to cry if someone murdered Trump.

[howard]

Here is a long but very nice piece on Trump and his campaign. Well worth the time and effort.

Donald Trump May Not Be a Fascist, But He is Leading Us Merrily Down That Path

It supports my general view that Trump is a transitional figure (as was Palin), and that we reside in a transitional time (the years between the little financial crisis and the big financial crisis/war yet to come in my estimation) as the country stumbles toward an American Fascism. The ground is not yet ready, but is being prepared in no small measure by Trump.

The author makes some important points about the definitions of fascism, the distinction from the corporate oligarchy which we are suffering today. And he quotes one of my favorite books on Nazi Germany: They Thought They Were Free: The Germans 1933-1945 by Milton Meyer, harking to our discussion earlier this week on rhetorical parallels of that time and today.

One important point he makes is Trump's lack of an ideology other than his supreme ideology of himself. He truly cares for absolutely nothing other than his own popularity/aggrandizement. This limits his danger, and exposure of this core to even his most ignorant and unthinking followers will doom his bid. But the danger lies in what will follow in future election cycles.

[Rex]

Isn't that pretty much what Idiocracy was?

[Pruitt]

One important point he makes is Trump's lack of an ideology other than his supreme ideology of himself. He truly cares for absolutely nothing other than his own popularity/aggrandizement. This limits his danger, and exposure of this core to even his most ignorant and unthinking followers will doom his bid. But the danger lies in what will follow in future election cycles.

Yeah, we touched on this elsewhere... but Dan Quayle was a step towards stupidity not being an obstacle to running on the big stage, Sarah Palin was a huge step forward. Guys like Santorum and Huckabee did their part to drag political discourse down to Kindergarten level and Trump and carson lead the pack dumbing it down even further.

This was all fun for a while, but the fear is - what on earth could possibly follow this?

[rass]

I clicked on a video from an article about Trump still sticking with the "9/11 being celebrated in Jersey" story, and made things worse for myself by reading some of the spirited debate. Even amongst the worst of the worst, this guy stuck out:

I Saw it and I have a video and I am as we speak copying it to my computer drive. I will be uploading it everywhere. The video is obvious! I also have a video of Israeli's in New Jersey who were picked up by police but later let go, they were cheering. You can see the towers coming down in the background! The reason why I know this is because I was there! I happened to my video camera in the car because I was using it for my job. I sent this video to two news publications who wanted it but it was shown only once that I saw and maybe two or three times that others told me they saw the segment. The Israeli footage was also not shown after a day or two.

If you want a peek into his head, or just to be a little weirded out, check out his profile on YT and the list of videos he has favorited.

[Shirley]

These people are always just about upload/copy/save/publish their incredibly damning videos.

[Pruitt]

I clicked on a video from an article about Trump still sticking with the "9/11 being celebrated in Jersey" story, and made things worse for myself by reading some of the spirited debate. Even amongst the worst of the worst, this guy stuck out:

I Saw it and I have a video and I am as we speak copying it to my computer drive. I will be uploading it everywhere. The video is obvious! I also have a video of Israeli's in New Jersey who were picked up by police but later let go, they were cheering. You can see the towers coming down in the background! The reason why I know this is because I was there! I happened to my video camera in the car because I was using it for my job. I sent this video to two news publications who wanted it but it was shown only once that I saw and maybe two or three times that others told me they saw the segment. The Israeli footage was also not shown after a day or two.

If you want a peek into his head, or just to be a little weirded out, check out his profile on YT and the list of videos he has favorited.

Christ almighty. I suppose this all part of Israel's undeclared war on America. I've heard of it before. And of course the media would cover all of this up because Jews run the media... it's been mentioned before, but other than being a "Fantasy Football Expert" on ESPN, defending an insane conspiracy theory is the easiest thing in the world to do because any hole in logic is easily covered by created a tangent to the conspiracy.

Any mention of Odin=white supremacist, but the fact he's also featured videos of the SS says all that needs to be said.

Sometimes you have to wonder if the First Amendment is really such a good idea.

[DaveInSeattle]

These people are always just about upload/copy/save/publish their incredibly damning videos.

Yep...remember the infamous "Whitey" video? Was always "just about to be released"? Well...we're still waiting...

[Steve of phpBB]

These people are always just about upload/copy/save/publish their incredibly damning videos.

Yep...remember the infamous "Whitey" video? Was always "just about to be released"? Well...we're still waiting...

You haven't seen that yet? You're in for a treat.

I'll get it posted in just a sec.

[rass]

[P.D.X.]

Has anyone asked the question of how the Muslims of NJ knew about the attacks in order to set up their tailgaters? Or were they already stocked up with turkey dogs and O'Douls and then just laid out a spread after the first plane hit? (On a workday, at that. Pretty impressive.)

[howard]

The Jews toldt them. Jeez, try to keep up.

[Nonlinear FC]

I haven't kept up with this thread, and this possibly belongs in End of Journalism, but...

The fact that Trump REPEATEDLY stated that he had investigators in Hawaii (and elsewhere) looking into Obama's place of birth, and that he would be dropping HUGE news on that front "in the coming days" ... The fact that this isn't trotted out every time he makes a claim like the NJ muslim celebrations is a good sign of what pussies the media have become.

Chuck Todd is being lauded as some kind of brave hero for FINALLY stepping up and saying to Trump's face that he's a lying, jingoistic, racist ball of shit.

Do your jobs.

[DaveInSeattle]

Has anyone asked the question of how the Muslims of NJ knew about the attacks in order to set up their tailgaters? Or were they already stocked up with turkey dogs and O'Douls and then just laid out a spread after the first plane hit? (On a workday, at that. Pretty impressive.)

At 8am...don't forget that part as well...

[Pruitt]

The Jews toldt them. Jeez, try to keep up.

Not a single Jew died in 9/11. It's a fact.

[The Sybian]

I haven't kept up with this thread, and this possibly belongs in End of Journalism, but...

The fact that Trump REPEATEDLY stated that he had investigators in Hawaii (and elsewhere) looking into Obama's place of birth, and that he would be dropping HUGE news on that front "in the coming days" ... The fact that this isn't trotted out every time he makes a claim like the NJ muslim celebrations is a good sign of what pussies the media have become.

Chuck Todd is being lauded as some kind of brave hero for FINALLY stepping up and saying to Trump's face that he's a lying, jingoistic, racist ball of shit.

Do your jobs.

Don't know if I've mentioned it here, but I've brought the Hawaii thing up in conversations. Trump's go non-answer is I'll show you soon, but with typical grandiosity. He scores the points for having something Huuuuuuuuge, but the idiots forget, or continue believing it's true without the evidence coming forward. And like you said, the media never challenges anyone, and if they do, it is "gotcha" journalism and the person scores points for being a victim of the Liberal Media.

[rass]

Jeb! campaign "comms director":

There is apparently some context to this, but....