Anarchy (and Shirley) in the UK

[Shirley]

My wife got an opportunity to teach a class at Cambridge this summer, so the whole family is crossing the pond for the month of July.

We plan to take a few short trips - London, Edinburgh, Paris, and Rome.

Does anyone have any suggestions for how best to handle our phones for the five weeks? We both have iPhone 5s with AT&T.

I've heard that it's a good idea to get a Google Voice number and forward our cell numbers to that. But what does that get us?

Specifically, I'd like to know how best to:

1. Receive calls (or not) from the US.

2. Receive voicemails from the US

3. Call the US.

4. Call each other (both in Cambridge).

Who's done this?

[govmentchedda]

Just got back from a week and a half over there (Spain, France and Italy). I've got an iphone 4, and AT&T. I used AT&T's international cell and data package while I was overseas. We were pretty heavily reliant on it to call home to our kids and use as a GPS while driving, and went over our pre-bought allotment of minutes. I can't compare it to anything else you would do while over there as far as cost goes, but we were happy with the service.

[Shirley]

Just got back from a week and a half over there (Spain, France and Italy). I've got an iphone 4, and AT&T. I used AT&T's international cell and data package while I was overseas. We were pretty heavily reliant on it to call home to our kids and use as a GPS while driving, and went over our pre-bought allotment of minutes. I can't compare it to anything else you would do while over there as far as cost goes, but we were happy with the service.

How much did that run you? I've heard that their international plans are very expensive.

[govmentchedda]

We bought the cheapest ($60 each, I think) plans for both talk minutes and data plans (x4, b/c data and phone for both of us). Don't remember what that got me, except that we probably spent an additional $150-200 for more data. I wasn't about to drive through the Italian countryside without GPS, and I had a scare in Barcelona with my hotel's unprotected wifi that caused me to change some passwords, and rely more on my AT&T data than wifi. Also, I'd starred on Google maps places that I wanted to see and where I wanted to eat.

Also, Oiler was there too, and I believe he bought a sim card from a European cell carrier that had a set number of either texts or data. He was much stingier with his use than me, but he could fill you in on the cost of that, and how much he used it. Shoot him a PM or email, as he's rarely here anymore.

[sancarlos]

Make sure you've got a credit card that doesn't charge you a fee for foreign currency transactions.

[Steve of phpBB]

Just got back from a week and a half over there (Spain, France and Italy). I've got an iphone 4, and AT&T. I used AT&T's international cell and data package while I was overseas. We were pretty heavily reliant on it to call home to our kids and use as a GPS while driving, and went over our pre-bought allotment of minutes. I can't compare it to anything else you would do while over there as far as cost goes, but we were happy with the service.

For GPS, was the data usage because of the GPS or because you were downloading maps as you were driving?

A couple of years ago I obsessively downloaded all the maps I would need before I went to Europe. So while I used the GPS, I didn't have to incur international data charges.

[kranepool]

http://lifehacker.com/5974153/how-can-i ... nationally" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[govmentchedda]

My wife was actively using the GPS feature while I was driving. Couldn't have made it without it. We don't speak Italian, she doesn't read maps well, and the roads were poorly marked.

[Shirley]

http://lifehacker.com/5974153/how-can-i ... nationally

Thanks. I read that one when it came out, but it is so full of "depending on this" and "if you have this then you probably need that" steps that it's nearly useless for any specific situation.

[Scottie]

A couple of years ago I obsessively downloaded all the maps I would need before I went to Europe. So while I used the GPS, I didn't have to incur international data charges.

Pretty damn smart move, that.

Because downloading data outside of your home country can turn out to be really, really, bad.

[Shirley]

A couple of years ago I obsessively downloaded all the maps I would need before I went to Europe. So while I used the GPS, I didn't have to incur international data charges.

Pretty damn smart move, that.

Because downloading data outside of your home country can turn out to be really, really, bad.

I have a hard time feeling sorry for that dad who let his son watch 12 hours of video on his iPhone while on vacation. I mean, fucking hell. Did he supervise his kid at all?

[Scottie]

Oh, I feel no sympathy for that guy either. And from other articles I read at the time, it very much appeared that Dad, Mom and daughter didn't want to be stuck in a hotel room with their sunburned son so they were leaving him alone in the hotel room while going out and being tourists. That's not exactly brilliant when in Mexico (or anywhere, I suppose). But the guy's argument is "I should have done this, I should have done that, I didn't but . . . it's still their fault."

That's very typical B.C. entitlement mentality, right there.

Anyway, yes, nothing will use your 1GB of roaming data faster than a GPS. Granted 1GB sounds like a lot but when using a GPS for a good length of time, you surpass that pretty quick. And, oh, the phone providers know that well.

[howard]

You know I hate the entitlement mentality. But I'm with dad on this one:

“It is gouging,” said Buie. “It is $20 in Mexico [for domestic customers] to get the same amount of data [700 MB] from their carrier and it is $40 to get the same amount of data while in Canada.”

$22,000 (CAN). for $40 worth of datastream. Sounds like Rogers Telecom has the entitlement mentality this go round. A common malady among telcoms.

[garyclark]

AT&T international plan is solid for calls and texts (just purchase it beforehand and turn off roaming). Data is a different story.

There's a lot of free wifi over there, but they ask you for your info all the time.

[Scottie]

You know I hate the entitlement mentality. But I'm with dad on this one:

“It is gouging,” said Buie. “It is $20 in Mexico [for domestic customers] to get the same amount of data [700 MB] from their carrier and it is $40 to get the same amount of data while in Canada.”

$22,000 (CAN). for $40 worth of datastream. Sounds like Rogers Telecom has the entitlement mentality this go round. A common malady among telcoms.

Except his comparison is dead wrong. Aside from the serious difference in monetary purchasing power between the two economies (what $20 buys you in Canada is not what 250 Pesos buys you in Mexico), that's simply not how datastreaming works.

If you live in, say, San Francisco and stream a YouTube video on your phone, consider how much transfer bandwidth you use. I can tell you it is next to nothing compared to if you live in, say, Vancouver and go to Puerto Vallarta, using a Canadian Internet provider to stream a relatively bandwidth-heavy signal to Mexico.

$22,000 is insane, sure. But his comparison is utterly senseless. It's also irrelevant what a Canadian pays in Canada and irrelevant what a Mexican pays in Mexico. Fact is, he's a Canadian in Mexico using a Canadian provider to relay streaming American signals to a reception in Mexico.

So hey. It costs $4 for a beer in Canada but it's only $2 for a beer in Mexico. Sure, unless you're a Canadian in Mexico and importing that beer from Canada to Mexico. Then that beer is going to cost you a thousand times more.

[howard]

$30 per mb is insane. No letting Rogers off the hook for that shit. Dad is playing the exact same game they are; citing an outrageously extreme dollar figure ($20). Final price of $500 sounds reasonable.

Difference is, it is big fucking corporation bullying an individual customer. That entitlement mentality is what I am talking about, not the rationality of dad's counter example of price in a media interview.

[BTTG]

Nice! What a great trip that will be, Cambridge is lovely and will be very easy to pop down to London whenever you wish. Hopefully this July will be a little more summer-like than last July.

You wouldn't be able to do anything until you got out of the airport and went to a typical UK high street, but what about buying a Pay As You Go phone at a shop and topping it up as and when your credits run down?

http://www.carphonewarehouse.com/mobile ... -as-you-go

Car Phone Warehouse (or Phones 4u or any of the carriers like Vodafone, O2, EE, etc.) have shops in pretty much every town with a population of 5,000 or more people, and they offer crap phones for £5-10 as long as you pay for £10 of airtime. After that, you pay for what you use and can top up at a shop or on a lot of ATMs from the major banks. Calls within the UK will run about 0.03-0.04p/min and data will be fairly cheap. While you're in the UK, that will take care of items 1, 2 and 4 on your list, as you won't be paying if a US number calls you or leaves a voice mail, you should only pay the UK per minute charges. I think this will also be cheaper and simpler than buying a UK SIM out of a vending machine at Heathrow and going through the ball ache of setting it up, with no guarantees that it will work.

When you're traveling, it will get more expensive, even if you're calling another UK number. For that matter, calling international on these phones from the UK is certainly cheaper than using your US phone on roaming, but probably isn't cheap, maybe 0.25-0.50p a minute. For these situations, it might be easiest to just get to a place with WiFi and Skype or FaceTime with people in the US (or text the US caller to call you via Skype). I'm not sure if it's the same for a PAYG phone, but all of the carriers have arrangements with BT for WiFi in places like Starbucks and your hotel is almost certain to have WiFi (unless it's the Royal Imperial Windsor Arms). Hell, if all else fails, you can now get WiFi in many of the Tube stations in London.

[Johnnie]

The first thing I would suggest to everyone ever is to get a world phone that's unlocked.

The The Google Nexus 4 is fine choice. $299 for 8GB. $349 for 16 GB.

Korea, America, Europe...etc. Pop in a sim card and go. So basically all you do is get pay as you go service in the country you're in and the hardware is already acclimated. Just know the caps and details of your service.

Next...use the shit out of Wi-Fi. Outside of America, it's just about everywhere. Skype, Voxer, What's App, Kakao Talk, Google Talk/Text...all uses data transfer. If you want to keep in touch with people back home have them use an app that uses data for text/talk transmission. There are plenty. I can Vox my friends in Europe and America and it's not going to charge me international anything.

If you are going with your phone, follow the advice that been given in the thread. It's kinda counter intuitive to just spring for an unlocked world phone, but if you planned on dropping that kind of coin in the first place, it may be worth it.

My $.02.

[Steve of phpBB]

Anyway, yes, nothing will use your 1GB of roaming data faster than a GPS. Granted 1GB sounds like a lot but when using a GPS for a good length of time, you surpass that pretty quick. And, oh, the phone providers know that well.

This is my question, though - are you sure that using the GPS uses up roaming? We used our GPS a lot on a couple of trips over the past two years, and I don't think it affected the data.

I believe that what affects data is automatic downloading of maps if you are relying on a program like Google Maps that does not let you store them ahead of time.

The MotionX GPS app costs about ten bucks, but it lets you download maps of various scales and types (terrain, road). Then you can use it while you are there without incurring any data charges. At least, that is how I understand it.

[Gunpowder]

So hey. It costs $4 for a beer in Canada but it's only $2 for a beer in Mexico. Sure, unless you're a Canadian in Mexico and importing that beer from Canada to Mexico. Then that beer is going to cost you a thousand times more.

A thousand times more? Is it really that much to ship between Canada and Mexico?

Also, how much of that is due to things that don't apply to the telecom example like going through customs?

In the US, you need a written estimate before an auto mechanic can charge you over $100 to fix your car. But a telecom company can ring up a $22,000 bill for you without even an alert (which I believe is changing soon or has changed in the U.S. - they'll have to give alerts).

I'm with Doc Howard on this one.

[Gunpowder]

A couple of years ago I obsessively downloaded all the maps I would need before I went to Europe. So while I used the GPS, I didn't have to incur international data charges.

Pretty damn smart move, that.

Because downloading data outside of your home country can turn out to be really, really, bad.

I have a hard time feeling sorry for that dad who let his son watch 12 hours of video on his iPhone while on vacation. I mean, fucking hell. Did he supervise his kid at all?

Ahhh. Shirls started that line of thinking.

I'm going to Europe in two weeks and the point I'm getting from all this is look out. I've been told to go in Airplane mode and use Wi-fi only.

[BTTG]

Anyway, yes, nothing will use your 1GB of roaming data faster than a GPS. Granted 1GB sounds like a lot but when using a GPS for a good length of time, you surpass that pretty quick. And, oh, the phone providers know that well.

This is my question, though - are you sure that using the GPS uses up roaming? We used our GPS a lot on a couple of trips over the past two years, and I don't think it affected the data.

Roaming or not, the new Google Maps (and I would assume Apple Maps) uses up a shit-ton of data. I have a 500MB monthly allocation that I rarely come close to using in full, given how readily available WiFi is - this month, after a week of driving around country roads in Cornwall using my iPhone as a GPS device, it used up well over half that, something like 50MB a day. I knew it would use a lot but hadn't realised it would use THAT much. On roaming, that adds to a phone bill of several hundred pounds.

Yeah, buy a TomTom device, hell, buy an atlas, and go Airplane Mode on the phone.

[howard]

Google Maps/iMap use a shit ton of battery power. I presume that parallels data usage (my domestic data charge is unlimited).

[Scottie]

A thousand times more? Is it really that much to ship between Canada and Mexico?

Why not? Although you know I'm not quoting an exact figure, right? Simply put, purchasing a single item in Mexico is not going to be nearly as expensive than if you purchase an item while in Mexico that has to be shipped thousands of miles to you across three nations.

Pretty straightforward, I thought.

This is my question, though - are you sure that using the GPS uses up roaming? We used our GPS a lot on a couple of trips over the past two years, and I don't think it affected the data.

It's not that cut'n'dry. Depends on the GPS program, depends on the phone provider, your phone, your plan, your settings, what part of the world you're in, etc. For example, my wife and I use two different cell phone providers. On two different platforms (Android, iPhone). The combination of the provider she uses and the GPS built into her phone behaves in a somewhat similar fashion to that which you just described. If, that is, she pre-loads a lot of the data as you sensibly did. Mine is far different. I can see Seattle from my backyard, as it were. But if I go over there and start using the Android's built-in GPS program, without having known to minimize the settings, it would download a staggering amount of data, for all of which I would be charged as international roaming. One thing I noticed, using it here in town when I first bought it just to test it out, is that when asked for a street map it would also download (in the background) every other possible view. Terrain, Satellite, Street View, Traffic, Weather, Points Of Interest, you name it. It's not visible unless you tell the phone you want to see, but it is very very very easy for a GPS user to unwittingly request mountains of data all the while believing they are getting simple street maps. All maps are layers of data, whether it is a paper map from a gas station or your GPS. Layer of land formation, layer of streets, train tracks, road signage, street names, elevation, compass, scale, etc etc etc. Maps contain a ton of information. One may be telling the program to only display certain layers or views but odds are they are all there.

I have no doubt that some phone providers don't consider GPS data to be roaming. I've yet to encounter one. I don't see why they would not; GPS data is massive compared to, say, checking the latest threads on The Swamp.

If anyone wants an easy example and you happen to have Google Earth installed on your computer, fire it up and play with it for a few minutes. Then look at your Task Manager to see how much memory it is using (yes, it is using thousands of times more than just about everything else). Then close the program and run CCLeaner (or a similar cleaner) to see how much cached data was cleaned. It will typically be around 300,000 - 500,000 KB range. Even double that is not the least bit unusual. While that is not a perfect parallel to your phone's GPS, it's not that far off when examining how large any geographic information system data will typically be.

[Gunpowder]

A thousand times more? Is it really that much to ship between Canada and Mexico?

Why not? Although you know I'm not quoting an exact figure, right? Simply put, purchasing a single item in Mexico is not going to be nearly as expensive than if you purchase an item while in Mexico that has to be shipped thousands of miles to you across three nations.

Pretty straightforward, I thought.

I'm not saying that maybe it's 1,001 or 999 times. I'm saying I think that it's a very large exaggeration and doesn't explain away what I consider to be ridiculous price gouging.

[Scottie]

I'm not saying that maybe it's 1,001 or 999 times. I'm saying I think that it's a very large exaggeration and doesn't explain away what I consider to be ridiculous price gouging.

Out of curiosity, what do you think happens when you make a request to a website? When you go to a website you are sending a request for data. That site will respond with the data you have requested. But that site doesn't receive your request directly from your device. Nor does it send you the data you requested from its server directly to you.

Have you ever done a Trace Route? Try it. Hours of fun. Go to your command prompt and use the "tracert" command, enter an address and watch how many servers (nodes) through which your request has to pass. Here's an example:



This is a simple request from my office (in YYJ) to the website for the Hotel del Principado. It is pinging that site with the absolute minimum amount of data possible (32 bytes), virtually nothing. Now, that is the traceroute with the smallest amount of servers involved that I could find while just friggin' around; a typical request would involve more. As you can see, your request has to be handed off multiple times to get to your desired destination. Tracing the individual IPs in those bounces, you'll see there are servers in Switzerland (destination host) and Washington, DC (pretty much everything magically goes through DC), through which your request must pass. Because the amount of data I just used is minuscule, any server out there can handle it. Large-scale data, such as geographic systems data (or streaming/downloading audio/video) can't always be handled by any given server for a variety of reasons (size, restrictions, type of dedication, etc) so that request would keep getting handed off until it finds a series of servers that will process the data transfers. More servers equals more requests. That which you request is broken up into packets in order to be transferred and then reassembled on your end before you see it; GIS data is a staggering number of packets.

That's 32 bytes of data that was just pinged, literally, half-way around the world and back with some places you might not expect visited along the way. Now let's start doubling that exponentially because, remember, we're in Mexico using a Canadian service. So in the case of our Vancouver Family it's no longer a request from Canada to Mexico and back, it's now a request from that request to create another request from Mexico>Canada to Canada>Mexico and back to send a request from Canada to Mexico and back to Canada and THEN send it back to Mexico. You are not merely doubling the amount of requests involved; it's exponential. Now imagine that instead of 32 bytes of data it is hundreds of millions of bytes of data. Toss in the the fact that the kid was using, internationally, a device that requires a working tandem of multiple phone and internet companies, a working tandem of multiple phone and internet technologies, making a ton of request for a ton of data, and suddenly a shitload of businesses are involved in that kid watching YouTube.

All those servers involved don't do things for free just because they all think that the Internet is cool. They wouldn't be in business long if that was the case.

If you sign a contract that flat-out tells you its prices, it isn't gouging. If you don't learn how the Internet/Cellular technology works before you start using it, that's your fault. As the saying goes . . . we can't protect you from yourself.

In keeping with that which BTTG posted, all that is involved can get very large very fast. His story is an excellent example of just how quickly the numbers and charges can mount. And his advice to get an atlas is very solid; if you had to go through life with only one book, you couldn't do better than a good atlas.

[Gunpowder]

I get that, and I didn't mention that it should be free. I was just commenting that, along with Howard, that's tooooo much of a markup for something that you don't even know the scale on which you are using it. I don't believe that it cost the carrier even a fraction of $22,000 to provide that data service. Or, they probably wouldn't do it, as I doubt most people would pay it. Then they'd be out thousands of dollars.

If you complain long enough, carriers will usually drop excessive charges (I've done it before). I don't think they would be as apt to do so if it were actually costing them $10K to provide the service.

Sooooo, I'll probably be using a lot of paper maps on my trip.

[howard]

Hey Scottie, since this is the new tech thread--

I figured out how to amend my host file and block facefuck. Apple OS 10.7.5 really does not want people fucking with the host file, and they made it real tricky. But I cracked it. shit is faster, trace routes shorter.

[Scottie]

Under this line:

127.0.0.1 localhost

Add these lines:

127.0.0.1 http://www.facebook.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
127.0.0.1 facebook.com
127.0.0.1 *.facebook.*
127.0.0.1 static.ak.facebook.com
127.0.0.1 s-static.ak.facebook.com

To make it pertinent to this thread, if you are outside of your service zone and are looking at webpages, adding that info to your HOSTS file is going to greatly reduce your bandwidth usage. Stress "greatly".

[howard]

I'll redo it. I only added three lines.

Thanks.

[Steve of phpBB]

My wife got an opportunity to teach a class at Cambridge this summer, so the whole family is crossing the pond for the month of July.

We plan to take a few short trips - London, Edinburgh, Paris, and Rome.

Does anyone have any suggestions for how best to handle our phones for the five weeks? We both have iPhone 5s with AT&T.

I've heard that it's a good idea to get a Google Voice number and forward our cell numbers to that. But what does that get us?

Specifically, I'd like to know how best to:

1. Receive calls (or not) from the US.

2. Receive voicemails from the US

3. Call the US.

4. Call each other (both in Cambridge).

Who's done this?

Anyway, if you are planning to go to Edinburgh, you want to talk to Ocean Matt. He went to school for a while up there, I believe.

I don't know if he's made it to these parts, but I can get you his email address.

[Rush2112]

Washington, DC (pretty much everything magically goes through DC),

The two main Internet portals into the US from Europe are NYC (the old telephone exchange building) and in the suburbs of DC.

This was a very interesting book.

[Scottie]

The two main Internet portals into the US from Europe are NYC (the old telephone exchange building) and in the suburbs of DC.

Ayyyyyyup.

Saying "magically" was just me taking at shot at the tinfoil hat crowd that thinks the government monitors every byte of data in the world.

[Rush2112]

Saying "magically" was just me taking at shot at the tinfoil hat crowd that thinks the government monitors every byte of data in the world.

They don't?

(I already feel like I'm being tracked after reading up on Mr. Jones earlier today.)

[howard]

Just in case they do:

FUCK THE NSA!!!

[Steve of phpBB]

Just in case they do:

FUCK THE NSA!!!

Yeah, like they don't know about you already, Doc.

[testy boxcar]

i literally build the governments internet circuits! so, yes, i see you.

[testy boxcar]

Also, we used google maps on our phones whilst driving through Ireland (it was WAAAYYYYYY more accurate than the GPS the rental car place gave us) and walking 'round Liverpool/London for two weeks. A shit load of data. Verizon had an international plan that I switched to for the month, we went over the data limit, but it was still only like $100 more than our regular bill.

Also, as said before lot o' wifi over there.

[Shirley]

Thanks, everyone, for your input so far. Based on what I've read here and elsewhere, here is my current plan:

1. Receive calls (or not) from the US.
2. Receive voicemails from the US

I am going to use a combination of Google Voice (I already have a number) and the Talkatone app (free). I just downloaded it and tested it and it works great. With Talkatone, I can use Google Voice over wifi to send or receive calls.

To make this work, I plan to put my phone in Airplane mode with Wifi enabled. This will keep me off the cell network, but I can still take advantage of wifi wherever I can find it. If I'm online, I'll get calls. If not, I'll get voicemails.

Further, I will forward my regular AT&T cell number to my Google voice number, so I shouldn't miss any calls (I tested this as well and it worked perfectly).

3. Call the US.

I think I can just use Talkatone and Google Voice for this.

If not, I can use my Ooma home phone service (voip) along with an Ooma app (it's $10) to make calls from my home phone no matter where I am.

4. Call each other (both in Cambridge).

I'll have the same Talkatone setup on my wife's phone and we can use that, as long as we both have wifi access. If that's a problem, we can weigh whether it's worth paying for one month of At&T's international service.

I don't plan to use the maps on our phones much, but I'll look into what it takes to preload maps, just in case. If we're in Airplane mode, we'll avoid getting reamed on data either way.

How does that sound?

[A_B]

If calling each other won't work the way you hope, it might be cheaper to get one of those pay as you go type phones in England for each of you.