The OFFICIAL Craft Beer Thread

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Tue Dec 08, 2015 11:47 pm

brian wrote:I disagree. If someone's making a good beer it will almost always find a way to market. Some of the best craft beers are only available at the source. Some of the breweries hurt by this probably deserve to be out of business. Unless the distribution model changes if you're making a good product you'll be OK especially considering how discerning the market is now. Most even casual craft beer drinkers know Goose Island is crap. MolsonCoors can come up with 10 different kinds of BlueMoon but 90 percent of beer drinkers know it's essential Coors Light in drag.

Maybe things are different in other states, but New Jersey is extremely restrictive wrt distribution. Almost every store in my area have to use the same distributor. ABInBev is buying distributors in some states, and will soon be able to shut out non-AB beers. We need a Glass-Steagall Act for beer. And for the financial industry, but that is another matter. If this plays out, and a store opts to go with a distributor offering independent beers, AB will blacklist them. Bud/Miller/Coors is still an overwhelming majority of the market. Not many stores are going to be able to survive without selling macros. The big corps are also buying distilleries and wineries, so they can withhold spirits and wine, too. No matter what, this is going to hurt price and choices, and prevent new breweries from opening.

Rush2112 · Post by **Rush2112** » Tue Dec 08, 2015 11:55 pm

Watch Beer Wars (it's a documentary on Netflix) while 7 years old, it still rings true. The problem isn't really with the big brewers buying bigger crafts, it's the big brewers controlling shelf space and the distributors.

Post by **brian** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:19 am

And yet you can still get pretty much any beer you want at any store that chooses to carry it.

Post by **brian** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:20 am

Mind you I'm not in a million years defending A-B but the options now compared to 10 years ago are almost limitless. I find it hard to believe it'll be worse in 10 more years.

Pruitt · Post by **Pruitt** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:36 am

Even with Ontario's restrictive government monopoly on distribution and sales, there seem to be beers from new brewers hitting the shelves all the time.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know the profit margins on beer?

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 8:39 am

Was perusing the beer aisle last night and came across a single can of Modelo, opened, sitting on the shelf. That person might have a problem.

Rush2112 · Post by **Rush2112** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:16 pm

brian wrote:And yet you can still get pretty much any beer you want at any store that chooses to carry it.

It's not the store that chooses, it's the distributor. A store can decide to carry a beer, but unless it's acquired through a distributor it's illegal to sell.

It's very difficult for small breweries to get their cans/bottles on shelves because of the three tier system. It's a bit easier because some breweries have started distribution systems to help out the little guys. I know Brooklyn Brewing started some years ago, but I believe it's been bought out. Crooked Stave here in CO has started a distribution company, but they tend to concentrate on sour/wild beers.

I could have all the money in the world, a great beer, a canning/bottling line, but if I had pissed a distributor off all I can do is sell some cans at the taproom, no other recourse to getting my beer on the shelves at the local packie.

I think it was mentioned in this thread, but early this year the owner of Pretty Things brewing in MA went on a twitter tirade accusing bars and distributors colluding to have certain beers on tap. Distributors greased some palms and their beers are on tap before others. I'm not deep in the industry, but I have a feeling that not just hearsay or something that just takes place at bars.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:30 pm

And guess which brewery just announced it was ceasing operations. I don't know if its frustration, something worse or not related at all, but it seems pretty coincidental.

Rush2112 · Post by **Rush2112** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:33 pm

mister d wrote:And guess which brewery just announced it was ceasing operations. I don't know if its frustration, something worse or not related at all, but it seems pretty coincidental.

I was sad to see that. Really like the Doormouse's Lament and the St Bosphouros (or whatever it was) stout.

I think it DID have something to do with it, but the life of a gypsy brewer is a little tougher as well.

Post by **brian** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:35 pm

What's the alternative though? Requiring distributors by law to carry this brand or that brand? I hate A-B as much as the next guy, but I'm not seeing what the alternative is.

1) Distributors who choose not to carry beers that people want do so at their own financial risk just like bars that choose to carry only macros do so at their own risk. But you can't make someone who owns a business carry this brand or that brand.

2) If it really does produce a chilling effect on certain brands getting carried then a financial opportunity exists for someone to exploit the holes the big distributors are leaving in the market. It's Economics 101

(Again with the caveat that I understand distribution laws vary from one state to another. Though any kind of monopolistic distribution practices should be challenged in the courts by the Craft Brewers Alliance or other similar agencies as I know they've done in some states.)

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:44 pm

Eliminate the requirement to have a distributor? If Kane is canning, why can't Kane sell directly to the beer store?

Post by **brian** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:46 pm

mister d wrote:Eliminate the requirement to have a distributor? If Kane is canning, why can't Kane sell directly to the beer store?

Again, I agree. The distribution model is broken and this is more evidence of that.

devilfluff · Post by **devilfluff** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 1:03 pm

The Sybian wrote:Maybe things are different in other states, but New Jersey is extremely restrictive wrt distribution. Almost every store in my area have to use the same distributor. ABInBev is buying distributors in some states, and will soon be able to shut out non-AB beers. We need a Glass-Steagall Act for beer. And for the financial industry, but that is another matter. If this plays out, and a store opts to go with a distributor offering independent beers, AB will blacklist them. Bud/Miller/Coors is still an overwhelming majority of the market. Not many stores are going to be able to survive without selling macros. The big corps are also buying distilleries and wineries, so they can withhold spirits and wine, too. No matter what, this is going to hurt price and choices, and prevent new breweries from opening.

This is inaccurate. All NJ liquor stores work with multiple distributors.

Specific brands are handled exclusively by a single distributor in each area. For example, AB-Inbev is distributed in Gloucester & Camden counties by Konrad. But Konrad is not the only beer distributor in those counties. Warren, for example, distributes Miller products to those stores.

If an AB distributor chose to stop distributing a craft brewery, that brewery is free to sign with an alternative distribution network.

mister d wrote:Eliminate the requirement to have a distributor? If Kane is canning, why can't Kane sell directly to the beer store?

Kane and Carton are already self-distributing.

This option does add a significant level of complexity to their business models, though.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 1:08 pm

I didn't know that. I've seen Carton around (rarely), Kane hasn't made the foray yet.

With multiple distributors, how does shelf spacing work? Can they just offer pricing incentives to get their products on and keep other products off?

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 1:10 pm

Just had a Green Flash West Coast IPA. Really really good.

devilfluff · Post by **devilfluff** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 1:16 pm

mister d wrote:I didn't know that. I've seen Carton around (rarely), Kane hasn't made the foray yet.

With multiple distributors, how does shelf spacing work? Can they just offer pricing incentives to get their products on and keep other products off?

Carton is selling everything they can produce. They need to up production, and supposedly it is in the works.

Kane distributes primarily kegged product.

Yes, distributors can offer volume discounts or incentives to sway stores into a larger share of shelf space. But, the reality is that beer has a shelf life. And beer buyers are particular. If an AB distributor convinced a store to give them 100% shelf space, they would lose a lot of customers(most craft drinkers, all your Miller & Coors loyalists).

P.D.X. · Post by **P.D.X.** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 1:23 pm

A_B wrote:Was perusing the beer aisle last night and came across a single can of Modelo, opened, sitting on the shelf. That person might have a problem.

Yeah, he forgot his beer.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 1:28 pm

devilfluff wrote:Yes, distributors can offer volume discounts or incentives to sway stores into a larger share of shelf space. But, the reality is that beer has a shelf life. And beer buyers are particular. If an AB distributor convinced a store to give them 100% shelf space, they would lose a lot of customers(most craft drinkers, all your Miller & Coors loyalists).

Except they all just merged?

DSafetyGuy · Post by **DSafetyGuy** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:27 pm

Why couldn't someone start a distributorship that caters only to craft brewers? I know it's not nearly as easy as just saying, "hey, I'm starting a distributorship", and it obviously only works where there is a market for the service, but there are ways to be creative about it. Small stores (maybe even opening a storefront as part of the distributorship) could actually take orders to get beers, including online and with an app, and so on.

I mean, reading you northern Jersey-ites and your ways of stalking low-production specialty beers makes it seem pretty obvious that it would work in a region like yours.

Rush2112 · Post by **Rush2112** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:40 pm

DSafetyGuy wrote:Why couldn't someone start a distributorship that caters only to craft brewers?

There are a few. Crooked Stave distributes for themselves and other like minded breweries, Brooklyn Brewery had a distributorship before they sold it off, Craft brewers Alliance started as a distributor I believe. The problem isn't getting beer to distribute, it's getting a place in the stores/bars when the big boys control the taps/shelf space.

Then InBev does shit like this.

devilfluff · Post by **devilfluff** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 9:39 pm

mister d wrote:
devilfluff wrote:Yes, distributors can offer volume discounts or incentives to sway stores into a larger share of shelf space. But, the reality is that beer has a shelf life. And beer buyers are particular. If an AB distributor convinced a store to give them 100% shelf space, they would lose a lot of customers(most craft drinkers, all your Miller & Coors loyalists).
Except they all just merged?

Nope. ABInbev is selling SABMillers US operations to Molson to get the sale past US monopoly regulations.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Wed Dec 09, 2015 11:08 pm

Color me skeptical that that doesn't still lead to an us versus them scenario where the "us" is now the macros and their new breweries in concert against the rest of the crafts.

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 3:24 pm

devilfluff wrote:
The Sybian wrote:Maybe things are different in other states, but New Jersey is extremely restrictive wrt distribution. Almost every store in my area have to use the same distributor. ABInBev is buying distributors in some states, and will soon be able to shut out non-AB beers. We need a Glass-Steagall Act for beer. And for the financial industry, but that is another matter. If this plays out, and a store opts to go with a distributor offering independent beers, AB will blacklist them. Bud/Miller/Coors is still an overwhelming majority of the market. Not many stores are going to be able to survive without selling macros. The big corps are also buying distilleries and wineries, so they can withhold spirits and wine, too. No matter what, this is going to hurt price and choices, and prevent new breweries from opening.
This is inaccurate. All NJ liquor stores work with multiple distributors.

Specific brands are handled exclusively by a single distributor in each area. For example, AB-Inbev is distributed in Gloucester & Camden counties by Konrad. But Konrad is not the only beer distributor in those counties. Warren, for example, distributes Miller products to those stores.

Thanks for the clarification.

And yes, AB, Green Flash IPAs are fantastic. West Coast is probably my favorite Green Flash, but all are worth getting.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 3:45 pm

I don't like palate wrecker at all.

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 3:51 pm

mister d wrote:I don't like palate wrecker at all.

You know, I almost singled it out. Palate Wrecker is why I changed "great" to "worth getting." I was so excited when I found Palate Wrecker, and it is markedly not as good as their other IPAs. It seemed like it was overly bitter for the sake of being overly hopped. No balance at all. It was still worth trying though.

Post by **brian** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 3:56 pm

Green Flash Hop Head Red is in my standard rotation.

Rush2112 · Post by **Rush2112** » Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:27 pm

The Sybian wrote:
mister d wrote:I don't like palate wrecker at all.
You know, I almost singled it out. Palate Wrecker is why I changed "great" to "worth getting." I was so excited when I found Palate Wrecker, and it is markedly not as good as their other IPAs. It seemed like it was overly bitter for the sake of being overly hopped. No balance at all. It was still worth trying though.

It's one of those "lets just make it hoppy as shit" beers. Which typically aren't really that great.

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:08 am

OH YOU GUYS ARE IN FOR A CRISIS OF CONSCIENCE!

Rand Paul's FaceBook Quoting The Article Below wrote:"Sadly, in an attempt to accomplish their goal of selling more subpar beer, they’re turning to a pernicious form of cronyism rather than fair market competition, harnessing an outdated government regulation to halt the progress of their increasingly popular craft rivals."

Link

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Sat Dec 19, 2015 10:04 pm

Big news, Jersey boys. Evil Twin, Stillwater and Westbrook now sold in NJ. I heard Evil Twin was in the works getting NJ distribution. Stopped in to BuyRite in N Plainfield and they had about 6 different Evil Twin beers and 4 or 5 Stillwater. So psyched. I'm really enamored with Mikkeller and Evil Twin, so I'm psyched. They both put out some bizarre and unique stuff. Currently drinking Evil Twin Imperial Biscotti With a Cherry on Top I picked up last year. One of the few times I've enjoyed a fruit beer. Smoky porter with a nice sour cherry undertone.

After being proud of myself for buying less than I drank the past 2 weeks, I fell off the wagon hard. Friday night I found a 4 pack of Backwoods Bastard for $11. I can't pass that up. Also couldn't pass up a Big Bad Baptist, and a second bottle of Boulevard Rye in Rye. I wanted to drink one now and age one. Killing time I stopped to look, and saw sixer of Ballast Point Victory at Sea. Didn't even know it was out in NJ, high on my list of beers I've long wanted to try. Also got Lawson's/Otter Creek Double Down Porter and an Evil Twin Citra Sunshine Slacker. I was so excited about Evil Twin, I forgot to grab the Clown Shoes Flight of the Angry Beast I've been looking for. I got a beer buying problem.

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Sat Dec 19, 2015 11:04 pm

I'll say it. Goose island festivity is a solid winter lager type beer.

Rush2112 · Post by **Rush2112** » Sun Dec 20, 2015 2:35 am

Stopped in a little liquor store down the road. Had a number of Russian River Supplication which are hard to find in these parts most of the time, so psyched about that but also picked up a Elysian Dayglow IPA. Very solid to great IPA to my palate. Also grabbed a Punkuccino also from Elysian. A pumpkin/coffee stout that was much more pumpkin than coffee to me. Smooth and really got the spiced brown bread taste as it warms. I like it more than their other pumpkin offerings.

Post by **brian** » Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:55 am

Deuce McAllister has a bar in the CBD in New Orleans and it has like 50 craft beers on tap.

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Sun Dec 20, 2015 12:01 pm

The Sybian wrote:Big news, Jersey boys. Evil Twin, Stillwater and Westbrook now sold in NJ. I heard Evil Twin was in the works getting NJ distribution. Stopped in to BuyRite in N Plainfield and they had about 6 different Evil Twin beers and 4 or 5 Stillwater. So psyched. I'm really enamored with Mikkeller and Evil Twin, so I'm psyched. They both put out some bizarre and unique stuff. Currently drinking Evil Twin Imperial Biscotti With a Cherry on Top I picked up last year. One of the few times I've enjoyed a fruit beer. Smoky porter with a nice sour cherry undertone.

After being proud of myself for buying less than I drank the past 2 weeks, I fell off the wagon hard. Friday night I found a 4 pack of Backwoods Bastard for $11. I can't pass that up. Also couldn't pass up a Big Bad Baptist, and a second bottle of Boulevard Rye in Rye. I wanted to drink one now and age one. Killing time I stopped to look, and saw sixer of Ballast Point Victory at Sea. Didn't even know it was out in NJ, high on my list of beers I've long wanted to try. Also got Lawson's/Otter Creek Double Down Porter and an Evil Twin Citra Sunshine Slacker. I was so excited about Evil Twin, I forgot to grab the Clown Shoes Flight of the Angry Beast I've been looking for. I got a beer buying problem.

I can't believe how coherent this post was. Posted drunk on a phone fighting the sleep-inducing Jets/Cowboys game. What a shitty game. The Lawson's/Otter Creek collaboration is actually Double or Nothing Barleywine. No idea where I got Double Down or porter from. Wanted to try something from Lawson's for a long time. Actually trying to plan a Vermont weekend with a couple of families as an excuse for a beer trip to Alchemist, Lawson's and Hill Farmstead.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Sun Dec 20, 2015 12:34 pm

I've had Double Sunshine and Sip O' Sunshine from Lawson's and then one of their collabs with OC and I wouldn't consider the latter as having had Lawson's. Really undershoots what they put out solo.

Westbrook to NJ would be awesome assuming the one time I picked it up in Poughkeepsie was a fluke and not a different source for their exports.

devilfluff · Post by **devilfluff** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 12:11 am

The Sybian wrote:Big news, Jersey boys. Evil Twin, Stillwater and Westbrook now sold in NJ. I heard Evil Twin was in the works getting NJ distribution. Stopped in to BuyRite in N Plainfield and they had about 6 different Evil Twin beers and 4 or 5 Stillwater. So psyched. I'm really enamored with Mikkeller and Evil Twin, so I'm psyched. They both put out some bizarre and unique stuff. Currently drinking Evil Twin Imperial Biscotti With a Cherry on Top I picked up last year. One of the few times I've enjoyed a fruit beer. Smoky porter with a nice sour cherry undertone.

After being proud of myself for buying less than I drank the past 2 weeks, I fell off the wagon hard. Friday night I found a 4 pack of Backwoods Bastard for $11. I can't pass that up. Also couldn't pass up a Big Bad Baptist, and a second bottle of Boulevard Rye in Rye. I wanted to drink one now and age one. Killing time I stopped to look, and saw sixer of Ballast Point Victory at Sea. Didn't even know it was out in NJ, high on my list of beers I've long wanted to try. Also got Lawson's/Otter Creek Double Down Porter and an Evil Twin Citra Sunshine Slacker. I was so excited about Evil Twin, I forgot to grab the Clown Shoes Flight of the Angry Beast I've been looking for. I got a beer buying problem.

Those brewers are distributed by a group called 12 Percent, who signed a 1 year license in NJ. I'm hoping they extend that.

I also have a beer buying problem. Want to help me drink some of these cellar beers? It's swiftly approaching 400 bottles...

Rush2112 · Post by **Rush2112** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 12:30 am

devilfluff wrote:
I also have a beer buying problem. Want to help me drink some of these cellar beers? It's swiftly approaching 400 bottles...

I'll be over.

Going to a conference in San Fran in March. Typically love the fam to come along, but the hotel is a block and a half from Mikkeler Bar. Trying to hint to the wife that the weather is gonna be shitty, etc. etc.

Rush2112 · Post by **Rush2112** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 12:33 am

So what's everyone's "cheap" craft?

When I was in Boston I drank the shit out of Harpoon IPA. Now I like Escape IPA from Epic (CO only IPA) and Rampant DIPA from New Belgium.

Not a big NB fan, but not passing by a not bad DIPA for 4.99 a bomber.

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:31 pm

devilfluff wrote:
The Sybian wrote:Big news, Jersey boys. Evil Twin, Stillwater and Westbrook now sold in NJ. I heard Evil Twin was in the works getting NJ distribution. Stopped in to BuyRite in N Plainfield and they had about 6 different Evil Twin beers and 4 or 5 Stillwater. So psyched. I'm really enamored with Mikkeller and Evil Twin, so I'm psyched. They both put out some bizarre and unique stuff. Currently drinking Evil Twin Imperial Biscotti With a Cherry on Top I picked up last year. One of the few times I've enjoyed a fruit beer. Smoky porter with a nice sour cherry undertone.

After being proud of myself for buying less than I drank the past 2 weeks, I fell off the wagon hard. Friday night I found a 4 pack of Backwoods Bastard for $11. I can't pass that up. Also couldn't pass up a Big Bad Baptist, and a second bottle of Boulevard Rye in Rye. I wanted to drink one now and age one. Killing time I stopped to look, and saw sixer of Ballast Point Victory at Sea. Didn't even know it was out in NJ, high on my list of beers I've long wanted to try. Also got Lawson's/Otter Creek Double Down Porter and an Evil Twin Citra Sunshine Slacker. I was so excited about Evil Twin, I forgot to grab the Clown Shoes Flight of the Angry Beast I've been looking for. I got a beer buying problem.
Those brewers are distributed by a group called 12 Percent, who signed a 1 year license in NJ. I'm hoping they extend that.

I also have a beer buying problem. Want to help me drink some of these cellar beers? It's swiftly approaching 400 bottles...

I'd love to. You are pretty far South though, right? I'm driving by Joe Canal's on the way home. So tempted to stop in, as it's been awhile. In the last 6 months or so, I've found several stores that have upped their game. I have about 7 places I stop in when convenient, and I always find stuff none of the others have.

D, I totally get the Lawson's collaboration isn't really drinking Lawson's. Just let me delude myself. Collaborations don't usually work, and I avoid them for the most part, but this one sounds really good. I do want a second to age if I can find it again. I did like the Boulevard-Cigar City IPA that is out right now. If you like tropical fruit flavors in an IPA, this is worth picking up.

Rush, Mikkeller Bar is worth ditching the family. So many choices, both house beers and unique beers from other breweries, especially small locals. Food was really good, too.
-As for cheap craft, I don't think I have bought anything other than seasonal or limited release beers since the summer. So many of them coming out now, I haven't had a chance to pick up an old standby.

BSF21 · Post by **BSF21** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:39 pm

Rush2112 wrote:So what's everyone's "cheap" craft?

When I was in Boston I drank the shit out of Harpoon IPA. Now I like Escape IPA from Epic (CO only IPA) and Rampant DIPA from New Belgium.

Not a big NB fan, but not passing by a not bad DIPA for 4.99 a bomber.

Can you consider Sierra Nevada a craft? It's my go to as far as cheap decent beer to have around. I'm also big on Founder's All Day IPA but it's more midrange rather than "cheap".

Rush2112 · Post by **Rush2112** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:52 pm

The Sybian wrote: Rush, Mikkeller Bar is worth ditching the family. So many choices, both house beers and unique beers from other breweries, especially small locals. Food was really good, too.

I know! But, I don't want to feel bad about...well for the 5 minutes I'd feel bad. I went (with the wife) 2 years ago or so, during Beer Week, it was fantastic, even without being able to get in on the REALLY good stuff.

Got some unanticipated beer mail yesterday, couple of Treehouse IPAs, a Nightshift, a Hermit Thrush as well as a couple other IPAs that escape me. Very excited.