Man's Best Friend

[Moreta]

I can only imagine what the family and that officer are going through.

I know our department has undergone training specifically on dealing with people with autism. The training does tend to focus on children, but there's quite a bit of information on adults as well. Unfortunately, a knife is considered deadly force and the most appropriate response (if the officer couldn't just get back out the door and secure it) was to use his gun. People can still swing a knife after being pepper sprayed or, in rarer cases, after being tasered.

Ideally there would have been some attempt to talk her out rather than just making entry into the apartment, particularly since she was there alone. Making entry should always be a last resort since it has the highest risk of someone ending up injured. I spent 2 hours on the phone with a suicidal guy once while our officers twiddled their thumbs outside waiting for me to talk him out.

[bfj]

Just to clarify, Autism/Aspergers isn't a mental illness. But I agree with everything you said.

Can you clarify? I know we both have family members that suffer from it. Is there a different term I should be using or a reason why it's not "mental illness"?

Perhaps it is just a preference that makes me feel better, because they are certainly alike in many ways. I think the main difference to me is the onset of autism/developmental disabilities can be detected earlier and don't come on later in life. Mental illnesses like depression, anxiety, etc. can come on much later in a person's life. Maybe the illness is always there and just lays dormant until a later time and therefore it is a developmental disability also.

I feel stupid saying this. To me, mental illness is the brain as an organ "getting sick". It can happen at anytime in life. Hopefully, with medication and other therapies it can recover. Unfortunately, sometimes it can't.

Autism is the brain as an organ never developing properly so it never had the chance to act properly.

Call it what you want, sucks either way.


“Development disorder” is a specific term that refers to disorders which:

• Are apparent in early childhood
• Are brain-based
• Impact some or all of the majors developmental domains such as intelligence, language, learning, motor, or social skills
• May be related to a specific genetic condition
• May or may not be accompanied by a mental illness
• Examples include Autism, Intellectual Disability, Learning Disorders, Mixed Receptive-Expressive Language Disorder, ADHD

“Mental Illness” is a much broader and nonspecific term used to refer to disorders which are:

• Marked by impairment in emotional, behavioral, or interpersonal functions
• May become apparent at any time throughout the life span
• May be related to social, psychological, biochemical, genetic, or other factors
• Historically, referred to neurosis and psychosis
• May or may not be accompanied by a developmental disorder
• Examples include Depression, Anxiety, Bipolar Disorder, Schizophrenia, Personality Disorders, Psychosexual Disorders

[bfj]

I know our department has undergone training specifically on dealing with people with autism. The training does tend to focus on children, but there's quite a bit of information on adults as well.

That makes me happy to hear. Important stuff. Where do you live?

[BSF21]

Just to clarify, Autism/Aspergers isn't a mental illness. But I agree with everything you said.

Can you clarify? I know we both have family members that suffer from it. Is there a different term I should be using or a reason why it's not "mental illness"?

Perhaps it is just a preference that makes me feel better, because they are certainly alike in many ways. I think the main difference to me is the onset of autism/developmental disabilities can be detected earlier and don't come on later in life. Mental illnesses like depression, anxiety, etc. can come on much later in a person's life. Maybe the illness is always there and just lays dormant until a later time and therefore it is a developmental disability also.

I feel stupid saying this. To me, mental illness is the brain as an organ "getting sick". It can happen at anytime in life. Hopefully, with medication and other therapies it can recover. Unfortunately, sometimes it can't.

Autism is the brain as an organ never developing properly so it never had the chance to act properly.

Call it what you want, sucks either way.


“Development disorder” is a specific term that refers to disorders which:

• Are apparent in early childhood
• Are brain-based
• Impact some or all of the majors developmental domains such as intelligence, language, learning, motor, or social skills
• May be related to a specific genetic condition
• May or may not be accompanied by a mental illness
• Examples include Autism, Intellectual Disability, Learning Disorders, Mixed Receptive-Expressive Language Disorder, ADHD

“Mental Illness” is a much broader and nonspecific term used to refer to disorders which are:

• Marked by impairment in emotional, behavioral, or interpersonal functions
• May become apparent at any time throughout the life span
• May be related to social, psychological, biochemical, genetic, or other factors
• Historically, referred to neurosis and psychosis
• May or may not be accompanied by a developmental disorder
• Examples include Depression, Anxiety, Bipolar Disorder, Schizophrenia, Personality Disorders, Psychosexual Disorders

I did some digging after I asked and I understand your preference to distinguish the two. Like you said, I always just lumped it in because it was brain-based, and so many symptoms of autism I've seen tend to present as some of the things you listed under mental illness (anxeity, personality disorders, etc). I'll be more mindful in the future. Thanks for the insight.

[The Sybian]

I understand you don't have time. I thought I made that pretty clear. Also, a beanbag gun was probably not the best of examples. I'm saying that all officers are taught there should be an escalation of force. And every single cop has something less than lethal on their belt.

Again, I worked at a PD for 4 years. I understand. I heard and saw what most of the public doesn't see in situations like this. When it's bang-bang, you have to make a call. It's hard to fault an officer unless you were there and know what happened. Police officers deal with this every day, in big cities and small communities. My point was that unless the door was opened and this woman came barreling towards someone with a knife, there was likely a better way to resolve the situation.

And it still fucking sucks.

I hear ya. Not knowing the specifics, it is absolutely possible the cop overreacted and should not have shot. From the outside, it is horrible that a cop shot this woman, but I am not going to judge his actions without seeing the situation. I totally agree that it's preferable to subdue an attacker with non-lethal means, but it may not have been possible.

[The Sybian]

BFJ, I completely agree with your explanation. I'm glad you used the term developmental disorder, because that is what I use, and I am always afraid of using the wrong term and insulting friends with autistic children. I completely agree that mental illness is similar to a disease affecting another organ or body function. Like many diseases, people can have a genetic predisposition making it more likely they get the symptoms. Often there is a triggering event, but sometimes it is just a chemical imbalance in the brain. I see autism and other developmental disorders similar to people born with physical deformities. It is something that occurs in development, can't be cured or medically treated, but you can learn to overcome or better manage the disability. To varying degrees, of course. A person with a very mild case of Aspergers can be taught to identify body language that most of us naturally sense. They just need the extra step of consciously seeing a social cue, and consciously identifying the significance, and reacting appropriately.

[bfj]

I did some digging after I asked and I understand your preference to distinguish the two. Like you said, I always just lumped it in because it was brain-based, and so many symptoms of autism I've seen tend to present as some of the things you listed under mental illness (anxeity, personality disorders, etc). I'll be more mindful in the future. Thanks for the insight.

I wasn't offended at all. If I came off snarky, my apologies.

[sancarlos]

Yeah, to echo what was already said, how come cops always seem to use lethal force? Couldn't they shoot somebody in the legs once?

[The Sybian]

Yeah, to echo what was already said, how come cops always seem to use lethal force? Couldn't they shoot somebody in the legs once?

Two reasons, when they subdue someone without killing them, you have no reason to hear about it. Police are trained, from my experience, if you need to shoot, you always shoot to kill. Like my father told me, instead of using the State issued bullet, he loaded his guns with hollow tipped bullet, "because if I need to shoot someone, I'm inflicting maximum damage." He wasn't saying that in a tough guy or cowboy way, but if a situation ever escalates to the level of needing to shoot, it is to prevent deadly force against you or another person. Unless you are law enforcement in Texas, then you can shoot whenever you want.

[Moreta]

I know our department has undergone training specifically on dealing with people with autism. The training does tend to focus on children, but there's quite a bit of information on adults as well.

That makes me happy to hear. Important stuff. Where do you live?

It's a suburb of Detroit. I know we get a lot of training larger and more cash strapped departments don't, but this kind of thing is really important so I hope it's more widespread. The Autism Alliance of Michigan has been very proactive in reaching out to help educate law enforcement through their First Responder Safety Training.

[bfj]

I know our department has undergone training specifically on dealing with people with autism. The training does tend to focus on children, but there's quite a bit of information on adults as well.

That makes me happy to hear. Important stuff. Where do you live?

It's a suburb of Detroit. I know we get a lot of training larger and more cash strapped departments don't, but this kind of thing is really important so I hope it's more widespread. The Autism Alliance of Michigan has been very proactive in reaching out to help educate law enforcement through their First Responder Safety Training.

I just skimmed their website, very similar to what Pathfinders for Autism does in MD.

[devilfluff]

Couldn't they shoot somebody in the legs once?

Simply? No.

If a weapon is discharged, law enforcement is trained to shoot for maximum effect. You ALWAYS shoot to kill.

[The Sybian]

Couldn't they shoot somebody in the legs once?

Simply? No.

If a weapon is discharged, law enforcement is trained to shoot for maximum effect. You ALWAYS shoot to kill.

Not to mention, it's a lot harder to hit a leg than a chest. You aim for the biggest target most likely to incapacitate an attacker. Hit a guy in the thigh, he is shooting back at you.

[sancarlos]

Couldn't they shoot somebody in the legs once?

Simply? No.

If a weapon is discharged, law enforcement is trained to shoot for maximum effect. You ALWAYS shoot to kill.

Not to mention, it's a lot harder to hit a leg than a chest. You aim for the biggest target most likely to incapacitate an attacker. Hit a guy in the thigh, he is shooting back at you.

Many times the guy doesn't have a gun or even a weapon at all. I still don't get why you shoot to kill a guy with a knife.

[BSF21]

Couldn't they shoot somebody in the legs once?

Simply? No.

If a weapon is discharged, law enforcement is trained to shoot for maximum effect. You ALWAYS shoot to kill.

Not to mention, it's a lot harder to hit a leg than a chest. You aim for the biggest target most likely to incapacitate an attacker. Hit a guy in the thigh, he is shooting back at you.

Many times the guy doesn't have a gun or even a weapon at all. I still don't get why you shoot to kill a guy with a knife.

Google knife wounds. I don't have the stomach to link that shit here.

I'm not saying it's ok to pop someone who is just waiving a knife around but when someone with a knife starts to move at an officer, he has to make a decision. You'd like for the decision to involve something less than lethal but we've discussed that at length.

http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf

That's a nice, albeit dated, study on LE discharges with firearms. TL;DR -- They hit what they're aiming for a little less than 20% of the time. All the training in the world, all the qualifications, etc gets you 20%. That's why officers a)don't aim at limbs and b)oftentimes shoot what seems to be a disproportionate number of rounds. Officers are trained that you shoot to stop/kill because if the need for force has escalated to the point where you are pointing a firearm at someone, that you'd better be ready to use it and with deadly consequences.

Just some talking points. I'm not taking sides here. Law enforcement has an unbelievably complex and difficult job in every one of these scenarios. And sometimes they do the wrong thing. And sometimes they do the right thing. And sometimes they do the wrong thing for the right reasons. There needs to be education focused on the spectrum of force used, and ensuring that officers aren't proceeding directly from 0-100 in every situation.

[rass]

Couldn't they shoot somebody in the legs once?

Simply? No.

If a weapon is discharged, law enforcement is trained to shoot for maximum effect. You ALWAYS shoot to kill.

Not to mention, it's a lot harder to hit a leg than a chest. You aim for the biggest target most likely to incapacitate an attacker. Hit a guy in the thigh, he is shooting back at you.

Many times the guy doesn't have a gun or even a weapon at all. I still don't get why you shoot to kill a guy with a knife.

Google knife wounds. I don't have the stomach to link that shit here.

I'm not saying it's ok to pop someone who is just waiving a knife around but when someone with a knife starts to move at an officer, he has to make a decision. You'd like for the decision to involve something less than lethal but we've discussed that at length.

http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf

That's a nice, albeit dated, study on LE discharges with firearms. TL;DR -- They hit what they're aiming for a little less than 20% of the time. All the training in the world, all the qualifications, etc gets you 20%. That's why officers a)don't aim at limbs and b)oftentimes shoot what seems to be a disproportionate number of rounds. Officers are trained that you shoot to stop/kill because if the need for force has escalated to the point where you are pointing a firearm at someone, that you'd better be ready to use it and with deadly consequences.

Just some talking points. I'm not taking sides here. Law enforcement has an unbelievably complex and difficult job in every one of these scenarios. And sometimes they do the wrong thing. And sometimes they do the right thing. And sometimes they do the wrong thing for the right reasons. There needs to be education focused on the spectrum of force used, and ensuring that officers aren't proceeding directly from 0-100 in every situation.

How about twice?

[mister d]

[considers far more cynical reason for "shoot to kill in any force situation"]

[devilfluff]

[considers far more cynical reason for "shoot to kill in any force situation"]

There is only one story when half the participants are dead.

My wife and I had this discussion. She's been trained that if you fire a gun, you kill whatever you shoot at.

It's not cynical, it's practical.

[rass]

My wife took the mutt for his annual visit (now officially a senior exam) and the vet says he (the dog, not the vet) has a grade III heart murmur. I guess we're going to take him back in a month or so and see how it sounds.

[BSF21]

Would one of you parents get your kid a fuckin' puppy of 4 so this thread can have the happy bump it deserves?

[rass]

Well, he's otherwise about as healthy as an 11 1/2 year old dog can be, so yay!

[Pruitt]

Would one of you parents get your kid a fuckin' puppy of 4 so this thread can have the happy bump it deserves?

Seriously. Maybe it's just an unfortunate coincidence that so many of us had older dogs.

My wife is already hinting that she'd like a new dog. Talking about things like friends who rescued dogs, how a friend at work lost her dog about a year ago and was talked out of immediately buying a new pup in the same breed.

But please, someone get a puppy. You could name it "Swampy" and post daily pictures here.

[rass]

This is from just a month ago.


He's fine!

[rass]

right?

[Pruitt]

Right!

Here's a puppy picture to cheer everyone up.

[BSF21]

Oh, Gus is a good boy. Very good boy.

[mister d]

My wife is already hinting that she'd like a new dog. Talking about things like friends who rescued dogs, how a friend at work lost her dog about a year ago and was talked out of immediately buying a new pup in the same breed.

We met the coolest dog when looking at a house a week ago. I don't want another one, at all, but if you guaranteed me it would be just like this one (and never get old and/or die), I might be in.

[Moreta]

We got a new pup a couple of weeks ago. This is Cotton, usually known as Cotton Ball or Cotton Swab.

[sancarlos]

Nice pic, Moreta.

And, Rass, that video of Gus reminded me of our trip through the mountains with our dog in December. As we live in the Bay Area of California, snow is a novelty to our dog Cinders. You never saw any animal so gloriously happy as our dog, romping in the snow on that trip. I should've made a video.

[brian]

Posted this on the Facebook, but this is possibly the coolest dog ever.

[rass]

I think Moreta has set the new standard for Swamp betrayal.

A couple of weeks ago???

[Moreta]

I think Moreta has set the new standard for Swamp betrayal.

A couple of weeks ago???

It was not a good time to post puppies in this thread at the time. I'll make up for it.

[BSF21]

Keep em coming. You have much to atone for.

[Moreta]

True enough. So, you get the Story of How Cotton Came to Be.

This is Cotton's mama.


She wandered into my ex husband's yard in December. Lost, no collar, no microchip. She was pregnant and super sweet. We had her for a week while we hunted down her owner. One of my sons got entirely too attached and, when her owner was located and it was time to take her home, my husband (who is a sucker) floated the idea of asking for a puppy.

So, now we have Cotton Gin.

[rass]

Awwwww.

Husky-ish? And?

[P.D.X.]

Gotta be pit.

[rass]

Gotta be pit.

Yeah, I can see that.

[Moreta]

Huskyish indeed. Mama isn't pure husky, probably husky/shepherd. Dad is a mystery since he was undoubtedly a stray the little hussy met on the mean streets, but judging from head and body shape, he was probably mostly pit bull.

The vet we took mama to said 2-3 pups according to the ultrasound. She had SEVEN.

[Moreta]

In the interest of full disclosure, this is my other dog, Bootsie. She's half border collie, half yellow lab. She's smart as a whip and incredibly lazy. She's 3.

[rass]

A sun-baked dog is generally a happy dog.