Game of Thrones Season 6: The Quickening (chatter/guesses/spoilers)

[A_B]

It makes no sense at all that Jaqen would wear Arya's face and then try to book passage on a boat to Westeros. That was surely her. Doesn't mean it was her on the bridge though. But can the faceless men change shape as well? He's a lot bigger than Arya. I agree that somehow she's going to defeat the Waif and probably get back in Jaqen's good graces, but I don't think it's because the Waif killed Jaqen. That wouldn't really make any sense.

BTW, why did did the Brotherhood slaughter all of Al Swearengen's people? That wasn't really their thing. I thought they only attacked Lannisters and Lannister supporters. There was nothing to be gained by killing a bunch of hippies.

Scuttlebutt is that either those three were just bad apples, or that they are now being led by someone with a harder heart than good old Beric Dondarrion.

[Shirley]

It makes no sense at all that Jaqen would wear Arya's face and then try to book passage on a boat to Westeros. That was surely her. Doesn't mean it was her on the bridge though. But can the faceless men change shape as well? He's a lot bigger than Arya. I agree that somehow she's going to defeat the Waif and probably get back in Jaqen's good graces, but I don't think it's because the Waif killed Jaqen. That wouldn't really make any sense.

BTW, why did did the Brotherhood slaughter all of Al Swearengen's people? That wasn't really their thing. I thought they only attacked Lannisters and Lannister supporters. There was nothing to be gained by killing a bunch of hippies.

Scuttlebutt is that either those three were just bad apples, or that they are now being led by someone with a harder heart than good old Beric Dondarrion.

Ah, and I guess it's not clear who Al was a soldier for. Maybe he rode for the Lannisters or Freys. He did say he was ordered to kill smallfolk, which sounds like what the Lannisters were doing during the war.

[Jerloma]

I thought those people were sparrows, no? Do other religions have septons?

[A_B]

It makes no sense at all that Jaqen would wear Arya's face and then try to book passage on a boat to Westeros. That was surely her. Doesn't mean it was her on the bridge though. But can the faceless men change shape as well? He's a lot bigger than Arya. I agree that somehow she's going to defeat the Waif and probably get back in Jaqen's good graces, but I don't think it's because the Waif killed Jaqen. That wouldn't really make any sense.

BTW, why did did the Brotherhood slaughter all of Al Swearengen's people? That wasn't really their thing. I thought they only attacked Lannisters and Lannister supporters. There was nothing to be gained by killing a bunch of hippies.

Scuttlebutt is that either those three were just bad apples, or that they are now being led by someone with a harder heart than good old Beric Dondarrion.

Ah, and I guess it's not clear who Al was a soldier for. Maybe he rode for the Lannisters or Freys. He did say he was ordered to kill smallfolk, which sounds like what the Lannisters were doing during the war.

Well, I think they came for the one guy they didn't get. He wasn't there, but they sent a message to him with the massacre.

Andhe had the 7 star sigil on his necklace, Jlo. So I think he was ostensibly a sparrow, but he also seemed to be skew tolerant. So he was basically an episcopalian sparrow.

[Shirley]

Almost everyone in Westeros worships the Seven Gods, so that's not really that revealing. I think every town had a septon. He certainly didn't act like one of the Sparrows.

BTW, I don't recall if the Hound had any direct connection to Catlyn. I know he and Ned yelled at each other a few times, but nothing ever happened. The Hound later protected both Sansa and Arya, but nobody else really knew about either of those. So to her, he's just a Lannister hitman. Plus, his brother led most of the attacks on the Riverrun small folk, so maybe he's blamed for that. So if Lady Stoneheart is to be a character here, I wonder if he'll have a shot at convincing her that he's really more on her side.

[Johnnie]

My memory is hazy with the details of Riverrun. Who held that castle when the story began in season 1? And despite my small research on Blackfish, what is the significance of his backstory? I feel like even when I watch the shows I'm still missing things.

Except Benjen. I knew it was him immediately those few episodes ago. My brain is weird with this show.

[A_B]

Riverrun is the seat of House Tully, which is Catelyn Stark's family. It was basically given to the Freys for their part in the Red Wedding. The Blackfish stumbled out to piss before the Red Wedding killing began and got away.

[tennbengal]

It makes no sense at all that Jaqen would wear Arya's face and then try to book passage on a boat to Westeros. That was surely her. Doesn't mean it was her on the bridge though. But can the faceless men change shape as well? He's a lot bigger than Arya. I agree that somehow she's going to defeat the Waif and probably get back in Jaqen's good graces, but I don't think it's because the Waif killed Jaqen. That wouldn't really make any sense.

BTW, why did did the Brotherhood slaughter all of Al Swearengen's people? That wasn't really their thing. I thought they only attacked Lannisters and Lannister supporters. There was nothing to be gained by killing a bunch of hippies.

On point 2 - they said they were Brotherhood, but doesn't mean they were.

On the theory above - not sure - that may be a hole in that theory - but I had forgotten, really, the whole genesis of her telling Jaqen that he was the third life - so I cannot discount the possibility this is a part of that. And, really, that whole scene she was acting so cavalier - something that is pretty out of what her character is (and has always been) that I think there is a good chance it was not her.

[Jerloma]

Almost everyone in Westeros worships the Seven Gods, so that's not really that revealing. I think every town had a septon. He certainly didn't act like one of the Sparrows.

Oh, okay. This helps a lot. So the Sparrows are like our basic fundiegelicals except if they were above the law. Or I suppose now actually dictate the law.

[Johnnie]

Riverrun is the seat of House Tully, which is Catelyn Stark's family. It was basically given to the Freys for their part in the Red Wedding. The Blackfish stumbled out to piss before the Red Wedding killing began and got away.

Ohhhh. Ok. Catelyn and Lisa Arryn and Edmure's uncle. Little stupid Robin's great uncle. I was confusing The Eyrie, for some reason, with Riverrun.

(And then I was like "Wait...what's the Lannister owned castle?" Casterly Rock.)

Thanks AB.

[rass]

Love the title of episode 9 (next week's episode, not this week's).

[Jerloma]

I mean that can't possibly mean anything else than the obvious, right?

[rass]

I mean that can't possibly mean anything else than the obvious, right?

Right? I think they've said this season would include the biggest/most expensive/extensive battle sequence they've done so far on the show, so yeah.

[tennbengal]

Episode 8 to gather the armies from the Vale and deal with fallout between Sansa and Jon over her not telling him about that situation, and Sansa and Littlefinger to come to whatever awful understanding they need to come to and approach the walls of Winterfell, and episode 9 to have the battle.

I assume episode 9 or 10 Danearys lands on Westeros somewhere?

Night's King approaches the Wall?

Bran makes it to Howland Reed's house (or some other way we find out about Tower of Joy)?

[rass]

Episode 10 is called The Winds of Winter, which doesn't scream Targaryen to me, so I'm doubting Dany makes it West quite yet.

But if there are really only 13 episodes left after this season, who knows. What with the horn we know is floating around out there (and that I'm pretty sure has been referenced on the show) I'm expecting the Wall to come down at some point. That sounds more Winter-y to me.

[Johnnie]

Just saw this on io9:



Looks like all signs point to Lady Stoneheart.

[rass]

Well, shit. I just read an article that if true, spoiled something I didn't need/want to have spoiled.

And the GD Pens and Sharks are going to make me watch hockey on Sunday, so I'll be at least a day behind watching this week's episode, which always sucks.

[Rush2112]

BTW if anyone wants copies of the audio books of ASOIAF let me know I got copies for ya.

[Nonlinear FC]

It makes no sense at all that Jaqen would wear Arya's face and then try to book passage on a boat to Westeros. That was surely her. Doesn't mean it was her on the bridge though. But can the faceless men change shape as well? He's a lot bigger than Arya. I agree that somehow she's going to defeat the Waif and probably get back in Jaqen's good graces, but I don't think it's because the Waif killed Jaqen. That wouldn't really make any sense.

BTW, why did did the Brotherhood slaughter all of Al Swearengen's people? That wasn't really their thing. I thought they only attacked Lannisters and Lannister supporters. There was nothing to be gained by killing a bunch of hippies.

On point 2 - they said they were Brotherhood, but doesn't mean they were.

On the theory above - not sure - that may be a hole in that theory - but I had forgotten, really, the whole genesis of her telling Jaqen that he was the third life - so I cannot discount the possibility this is a part of that. And, really, that whole scene she was acting so cavalier - something that is pretty out of what her character is (and has always been) that I think there is a good chance it was not her.

I am going to just chime in and agree with the last point.

While there's a lot of stuff that is hard to follow, the show is actually pretty transparent when it comes to the acting. That's not a knock, it's just that I think the showrunners understand that there's SO MUCH going on that if they get too subtle, people will lose key plot points and get lost. You don't want the show to be so convoluted that the ONLY way to follow it is to basically read recaps the next day.

To that point, I think it was made pretty obvious even before the big Tommen reveal that Margery (I'm tired of trying to spell accurately) was putting on a show for Gigantor with Boobs and the High Sparrow. Not just intuition, but she just kept having to catch herself from saying what was in her heart/head. But on this episode? Hoo boy. That was made abundantly clear long before the rose portrait was delivered.

[Shirley]

To that point, I think it was made pretty obvious even before the big Tommen reveal that Margery (I'm tired of trying to spell accurately) was putting on a show for Gigantor with Boobs and the High Sparrow. Not just intuition, but she just kept having to catch herself from saying what was in her heart/head. But on this episode? Hoo boy. That was made abundantly clear long before the rose portrait was delivered.

Well, that and Margaery is always working an angle. She's very good at the game of thrones. One of the best, in fact. Hell, she's married three kings so far! There's no way she throws away all of that to live a live of enlightened poverty. Not a chance.

What I don't really get/buy is how or why the High Sparrow is falling for her act. I at least half expect that he is simultaneously using her in some way. He doesn't seem like somebody easily fooled.

[Steve of phpBB]

What I don't really get/buy is how or why the High Sparrow is falling for her act. I at least half expect that he is simultaneously using her in some way. He doesn't seem like somebody easily fooled.

I agree. I think he is on to her.

[TheHumanComa]

Every tv show needs a little Ian McShane! He was great in Ray Donovan and played his part well in last weeks episode of Game of Thrones. Now we just need a Deadwood movie or reboot.

[Johnnie]

Now we just need a Deadwood movie or reboot.

Ask and ye shall receive, according to this report from January.

[Johnnie]

BTW if anyone wants copies of the audio books of ASOIAF let me know I got copies for ya.

Mp3? If so, books 2-5, plz. Already read 1 a while ago.

[Shirley]

That's gotta be some looooong audio books.

Johnnie I'd recommend getting Kindle versions. It's very handy to have the ability to look up characters at a click.

[Rush2112]

BTW if anyone wants copies of the audio books of ASOIAF let me know I got copies for ya.

Mp3? If so, books 2-5, plz. Already read 1 a while ago.

PM me an email and I'll send a link.

ETA, I also have Kindle versions.

[Johnnie]

That's gotta be some looooong audio books.

Johnnie I'd recommend getting Kindle versions. It's very handy to have the ability to look up characters at a click.

I've learned that despite my three Kindles and a bookcase full of books, I just don't read novels. I've started a dozen different books over the last couple years and just haven't finished them.

I mean, I got the first 4 books for a dollar when I was in Korea three years ago and I only read the first book.

So I figure during my daily commute I can listen when podcasts and music get boring.

[Rush2112]

That's gotta be some looooong audio books.

Yes. 8+ GB for the collection.

[Shirley]

Book 2 alone is over 37 hours. That's a lot of commuting.

[tennbengal]

I yield. The Arya arc was stupid and ended nonsensically.

[A_B]

I yield. The Arya arc was stupid and ended nonsensically.

100.

[Steve of phpBB]

I yield. The Arya arc was stupid and ended nonsensically.

100.

Yup. But hopefully it is really over and she can interact with another main character. Any of them will do at this point.

[That French Guy]

the whole "extreme parkouring thru the city" a few hours after being multi-stabbed in the gut was a bit far-fetched, unless lady Crane was a red sorceress in hiding.

The Starks and allies have really fucked themselves up by keeping on choosing the honorable thing rather than the logical one.

[Steve of phpBB]

The Starks and allies have really fucked themselves up by keeping on choosing the honorable thing rather than the logical one.

I wonder, does that reasoning apply to Robb or Catelyn Stark? Robb declared himself King, started a war, and breached his promise to marry Walder Frey's daughter. Catelyn let Jaime go despite Robb's order that he be held.

[That French Guy]

The Starks and allies have really fucked themselves up by keeping on choosing the honorable thing rather than the logical one.

I wonder, does that reasoning apply to Robb or Catelyn Stark? Robb declared himself King, started a war, and breached his promise to marry Walder Frey's daughter. Catelyn let Jaime go despite Robb's order that he be held.

Yeah, poorly written. How about going with your feelings instead of your logic then ? Because both did quite stupid things.

[Johnnie]

Echo the garbage that was Arya's story arc. Unless she became the greatest lady assassin in the world and showed up to the Bastard Bowl and merc'd Ramsay, then it was completely pointless. The Waif was a shitty killer.

We got to see neither her death nor the Blackfish's. That was also lame. I guess they spent all the gore money on the Zombie Mountain killing one of the religious freaks?

I was hoping the LSH angle would play out. I'm glad I got to see two seconds of Lem Lemoncloak and Brienne and Jamie and the internet telling me this is how it goes down only for nothing to happen.

Pretty fucking retarded of the damn soldiers to just let Edmure back into the castle despite him obviously rolling over for Jamie. It was just that easy, huh? A couple days ago he was marked for death. And now, let's lay down our arms!

Anyhoo, next week it'll get better:

[Johnnie]

Oh yea. Sunday is Father's Day. Hysterical timing of the Bastard Bowl.

[Moreta]

[tennbengal]

Felt like a better Ask the Maester this week:

https://theringer.com/ask-the-maester-t ... .o4cfv1lr7

Episode 8, “No One,” is the calm before Game of Thrones’ traditional Episode 9 storm. By abolishing trial by combat, King Tommen has unwittingly dashed our hopes for the Cleganebowl. That leaves us only the Bastard Bowl to look forward to. Get hype.
On to the questions.

John asks, “Do we know what the ‘rumor’ that Cersei was told about is? Has that been mentioned in the past?”

After Bran’s visions of wildfire exploding in “Blood of My Blood,” I wrote about the Mad King’s secret doomsday plot to level King’s Landing using the viscous green explosive. (Long story short, Jaime Lannister killed the Mad King and his Hand, Rossart, before the caches could be detonated and, in the days after the fall of the city, hunted down the remaining plotters.) Though some of the wildfire caches were discovered and used for the Battle of the Blackwater, I suspect Qyburn located whatever remains for Cersei, who plans to use it as her last-ditch, get-out-of-trial-free card. This corresponds to the “Mad Queen” theory, which is less a theory and more an accurate reading of Cersei’s character.

Julian asks, “Is the High Sparrow playing the long con? By convincing King Tommen to ban trial by combat, he ensures that Cersei will lose. If she loses, it proves that she committed incest and thus Tommen has no rightful claim to the throne. Would the High Sparrow rule the throne until another king is determined?”

I doubt the Sparrow wants to rule the Seven Kingdoms, or would accept the position if given the chance. Moreover, while the Faith Militant is strong in the capital, it doesn’t have the strength to hold the continent.

The High Sparrow, unlike everyone else in King’s Landing, does not scheme. He does exactly what he says he’s going to do. Assuming that he has ulterior motives and could be bargained with like any other grasping court-hanger-on is why Cersei now finds herself about to stand trial. The Sparrow legitimately cares about the poor, the Faith, and justice. That’s what makes him so relentless. The previous High Septon would preside solemnly over the Great Sept of Baelor in his fine robes before heading over to Littlefinger’s for some after-hours bondage play (safe word: the stranger). If you want to find the High Sparrow, he’s in that dingy little room in the back, barefoot, wearing a cloth sack, deep in prayer all the fucking time.
The Sparrow’s stock could not possibly be higher. You have to wonder: Is it possible that he’s been seduced by the immense power he now wields? He has Tommen under his thumb and has free rein to shape the realm’s policy.

When the Faith Militant rose against the Targaryens during the reigns of Kings Aenys (pronounced exactly how you think) and Maegor, one of the core grievances (along with the Targaryens’ aggressive, incestuous marriage policy) was judicial independence, i.e., whose court, the Faith’s or the realm’s, would have final say in cases involving members of the clergy. Exhausted from generations of persecution and war, the Faith eventually gave up their claim, along with their weapons, as part of the peace deal brokered by King Jaehaerys the Conciliator sometime around 48 AC.
More than 250 years later, and seemingly in the blink of an eye, the High Sparrow has wrestled not just independence, but judicial superiority from the crown’s feeble grip. With Tommen’s decision to allow the trials of two notable members of the nobility to proceed, and his unprecedented decree to abolish trial by combat (good luck enforcing this), Westerosi law essentially has been unified under the control of the Faith. That’s a pretty fucking sweet deal.

The Faith, then, has a lot riding on the legitimacy of King Tommen. If he is found to not be the rightful king, or something else happens to him (and, let’s face it, something is going to happen to Tommen; the boy is too soft to live), whoever rules next would likely be loathe to honor the decision of an incest king which drastically weakened the throne and has no precedent in history. Of course, the septons could always find Cersei guilty of incest, regicide, etc., without actually ruling on whether the king is a product of incest.

Francisco asks, “So trial by combat was banned all over Westeros, are we to assume that trial of seven has also been banned or could we still have Cleganebowl, just bigger?”

The trial of seven refers to an ancient and rarely used form of trial by combat that features seven champions to a side. It has been invoked only twice, but there’s precedent for it being used by the Faith. In 42 AC, the Faith Militant challenged King Maegor the Cruel to a trial of seven to settle questions surrounding his right to inherit the throne. (Fair questions, by the way. The rules of succession stated that Prince Aegon, the eldest son of the late King Aenys, should have been crowned King Aegon II. When the Grand Maester of the Red Keep mentioned this, Maegor cut off his head, reportedly with a single stroke of his sword. The lesson: Don’t fuck with a man nicknamed “The Cruel.”) The Faith lost; King Maegor, who had been besting knights in tournaments since he was 13, was the last man standing. Considering the way the Faith’s last trial by seven went down, and the blanket language of King Tommen’s decree, I doubt we see the Cleganebowl.

Khaliel asks, “How skilled is Ramsay on the battlefield?”

Not very. But he enjoys so many advantages over Jon and Sansa that his relative inexperience as a military commander may not matter. He has a larger army, which includes heavy cavalry, something the Starks do not have. He’ll be fighting on his home ground (sad emoji) with the walls of Winterfell at his back, so his forces should be well rested and provisioned while Jon and Sansa’s ragtag army has been marching for days if not weeks and living off the land. The spine of the Stark forces is made up of wildlings; the most elite of the Free Folk’s fighters, the kind of people Tormund selected to climb the Wall and attack Castle Black, but still no match for disciplined armored knights in a set-piece battle. Jon and Sansa do have a giant, which is dope. But they’ll need a lot of luck and, I don’t know, a huge force of knights — maybe from the Vale??? — to ride in at just the right moment.

Taylor asks, “What’s with Edmure just surrendering the castle?”

To be fair, Edmure was in a very tough spot. Jaime was offering generous terms: safe passage for the Tully rebels who lay down their arms (those who wish to do so may take the black or enter the Freys’ service); a comfortable life for Edmure and Roslin as high-born prisoners at Casterly Rock; and a holdfast and lands for their son.

Of course, this is all contingent on the notoriously dishonorable Freys honoring their part of the deal (no chance they let Tully rebels leave the area alive) and the word of notable oathbreaker Ser Jaime the Kingslayer. If Edmure refused, the Lannisters and Freys would storm Riverrun, kill everyone inside, execute him and his child, and bring the curtain down on the ancient house of Tully.

Still, the Riverlands will remember Edmure Tully the same way that Draymond Green thinks of LeBron James. It would not have escaped Jaime’s notice that, before he arrived, the Freys were besieging Riverrun alone. That speaks to the antipathy that the Freys engender among their supposed vassals and the respect that the Riverlands have for the Tullys. Even the Boltons have supporters!

David asks, “Now that Jaime has possession of Riverrun, why are Jaime and Brienne still enemies?”

Jaime will give the castle to the Freys because Walder Frey is Lord Paramount of the Trident and the Lord of Riverrun, i.e., the Boss of the Riverlands. Tywin Lannister, acting in the name of King Joffrey, awarded Walder these titles for his complicity in the slaughter of Robb Stark’s family and bannermen at the Red Wedding. Brienne is the sworn sword of Sansa Stark, who is still a suspect in Joffrey’s poisoning and is currently engaged in an open rebellion against the Boltons, the current Wardens of the North. There are complicating issues (Roose betrayed the Lannisters when he married Sansa to Ramsay, and also Roose is dead), but essentially Jaime and Brienne are on opposing sides of the larger, somehow still ongoing war between the Starks and Lannisters.

Cody asks, “Does the arrival of Beric Dondarrion signify the end to the Lady Stoneheart hopes?”

DISCLAIMER: Lady Stoneheart is a book character that show watchers SHOULD NOT Google.
I believe so, yes. RIP Lady Stoneheart.
Lisa asks, “Could Tommen be the valonqar?”

Sure, why not? Valonqar means “little brother” in High Valyrian. This is a reference to the book version of the Maggy the Frog prophecy, seen in the first episode of Season 5, which states that “the valonqar shall wrap his hands about [Cersei’s] pale, white throat …” Valonqar theorizing is a deep rabbit hole and there are no shortage of potential suspects. There is some evidence that High Valyrian is a gender-neutral language — in the books, Maester Aemon tells Sam that the Valyrian word for “dragon” is “neither male nor female.” Extending this to valonqar is a stretch, but if you subscribe to this reading, basically every younger sibling in the story is potentially the valonqar.

Chris asks, “If Sansa/Jon Snow win the Battle of the Bastards and retake the North, how much legit trouble are the Glovers in for not answering the call of the banners?”

The level of retribution would depend on if the Glovers actually take up arms against the Starks. If Sansa and Jon win (AND THEY BETTER WIN), they can’t afford to spend the aftermath of the battle settling scores. What the Starks will need desperately is support. This is a constant theme of Game of Thrones: winning the battle is easier than everything that comes after. The knights of the Vale (assuming they’re involved in the battle) will eventually go home and it will be a long-ass time before the wildlings are accepted by the people of the North. Sansa and Jon will need to win native Northern support, even if that means forgiving the Glovers, and yes, even the Umbers and Karstarks. (Extremely Die Hard voice: “THE BOLTONS ARE TOAAAAAST.”)

Tywin Lannister said it best: “When your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you.” Joffrey didn’t listen. Hopefully Sansa and Jon will. (ALSO, THEY BETTER WIN.)

[A_B]

How the hell did i never realize that if Cersei loses her trial, she is guilty of incest and Tommen has no claim? Huge "duh" moment for me.