2016 NFL Offseason Thread

[Johnnie]

I wish I could have these hot takes in uniform and on television.

[sancarlos]

[Pruitt]

It's also a bit weird that this is happening in a sports league that was taking under the table payments from the Armed Forces in order to honor the military.

[SportsDoc]

Also, someone should keep a running tally of everyone who praised Muhammad Ali for his courage of convictions two months ago who bashes Kaepernick for this. I'm guessing it won't be a short list.

The better analogy would be a tally of those who praised Ali when he would not be inducted in the service at that time, not now. 50 years gains you a lot of perspective, as time might in this case, too.

I would add that refusing induction into the Army is not the same as what Kap did. Does Kap have the right to do so? Yes, unless the NFL were to require its employees to stand for the anthem, which I think they could do, though it could be argued it would need to be collectively bargained. Certainly away from the game Kap can do whatever he wants during national anthems.

If the question is how I feel about his actions, I am mostly disappointed. At the same time, I am even more disappointed in the NFL's reaction. This is the same league that fines players for untucked jerseys and rolled down socks. I would like to think standing for the national anthem should be expected by their employees.

I suspect I'll get ripped for that stance here by some, but it's how I feel.

[brian]

Yeah they should be forced to goose-step and salute President Trump too.

[Johnnie]

The worst part of this charade is that what he sat for is completely side stepped in favor of being appalled by sitting during a song.

And then it gets worse, imo. You have the idiot crowd making memes about his oppression instead of the body at large. He's a millionaire athlete. He was adopted by a white couple and raised well. He's going to complain? Ok, follow that logic. Only the non famous, mostly poor and opposed are allowed to voice an opinion? But fuck Black Lives Matter too! So what is it going to be?

Then after that it's the people who are "Y U DISRUHSPEKT FLAG, COMMIE? LEEV MURICA NOW!" group. They overlap and have no hesitation on cumming red, white, and blue on command. As if his sit down was aimed at the troops or something. It wasn't.

Then the manner of his protest is complained about. He sat during a song. He didn't decapitate a bald eagle, wipe his ass with the Constitution, and pledge allegiance to ISIS. So then these entitled pricks complaining about that feel the need to chime in. As if any protest would have been accepted completely.

It's all horseshit.

[SportsDoc]

Kap's response to ESPN today was very articulate. Well reasoned. He even seems to despise both Hillary and Trump, so he and I have things in common.

But, as johnnie pointed out, his protest has side-stepped his message. Which is why I would like to see him stand for the anthem. Make his points another way, especially now that he has people's attention. As a rich millionaire black athlete he certainly has the forum from which to do so.

And I go back to my previous post, I would like to see the NFL require their players to stand for the anthem. If not, then why do we do it? And, in the long run, a further discussion on playing the anthem before sporting events should probably be had.

Personally, I will probably always come down on the side of having it and respecting it, but the discussion is still worth having.

[Brontoburglar]

But, as johnnie pointed out, his protest has side-stepped his message. Which is why I would like to see him stand for the anthem. Make his points another way, especially now that he has people's attention. As a rich millionaire black athlete he certainly has the forum from which to do so.

His message would not have the attention it does if not for the way the protest was executed.

The outrage about the form of the protest says more about the people outraged than anything else.

[Joe K]

The worst part of this charade is that what he sat for is completely side stepped in favor of being appalled by sitting during a song.

And then it gets worse, imo. You have the idiot crowd making memes about his oppression instead of the body at large. He's a millionaire athlete. He was adopted by a white couple and raised well. He's going to complain? Ok, follow that logic. Only the non famous, mostly poor and opposed are allowed to voice an opinion? But fuck Black Lives Matter too! So what is it going to be?

Then after that it's the people who are "Y U DISRUHSPEKT FLAG, COMMIE? LEEV MURICA NOW!" group. They overlap and have no hesitation on cumming red, white, and blue on command. As if his sit down was aimed at the troops or something. It wasn't.

Then the manner of his protest is complained about. He sat during a song. He didn't decapitate a bald eagle, wipe his ass with the Constitution, and pledge allegiance to ISIS. So then these entitled pricks complaining about that feel the need to chime in. As if any protest would have been accepted completely.

It's all horseshit.

The other ridiculous criticism I've seen is, "He's just doing this for attention because he's not playing well. If he actually cared he would've done something back when he was playing well." As if anyone saying that would be okay with Cam Newton or Russell Wilson doing the same thing. It's all just moving the goalposts as most people upset at Kaepernick would complain about any possible form of protest against racial injustice.

[brian]

Also what in the name of happy horseshit does him not standing for the anthem have to do with the troops? Someone explain that to me.

[Joe K]

Also what in the name of happy horseshit does him not standing for the anthem have to do with the troops? Someone explain that to me.

Kaepernick himself had a pretty good response today to the "what about the troops" question:

"I have great respect for the men and women that have fought for this country. I have family, I have friends that have gone and fought for this country. And they fight for freedom, they fight for the people, they fight for liberty and justice, for everyone. That’s not happening. People are dying in vain because this country isn’t holding their end of the bargain up, as far as giving freedom and justice, liberty to everybody. That’s something that’s not happening."

[Johnnie]

He also said this:

It’s something that’s not happening. I’ve seen videos, I’ve seen circumstances, where men and women that have been in the military have come back and been treated unjustly by the country they fought for, and have been murdered by the country they fought for. On our land. That’s not right.

And to expound on that, he's being labeled a coward compared to Pat Tillman.

Pat Tillman was an atheist who hated praise for enlisting and giving up millions. When he died by friendly fire, there was a huge cover up that his parents fought like hell to expose. They did.

So, in a roundabout way, Kaep doing what he did is exactly what you fucking do to support the troops.

But nah. Meme logic dictates otherwise.

[Rex]

Am I missing something or has this just been one big battle of strawman arguments? I didn't see any word on an actual punishment or consequences here.

[Brontoburglar]

Am I missing something or has this just been one big battle of strawman arguments? I didn't see any word on an actual punishment or consequences here.

you're not missing anything

[Joe K]

FWIW, Jay Glazer, who was way out in front on the team moving on from Harbaugh, is now reporting that he'd be very surprised if Kaepernick is on the team at the end of the year. Others in the Bay Area are saying he may be a pre season cut. Obviously this is being framed as for "football reasons," but I hadn't seen any reporting that he might not even make the roster until this weekend. It would've made far more sense to cut him back in this spring before his 2016 salary became guaranteed, and in fact, there was a lot of speculation that would happen. But once his 2016 salary kicked in back in April and then the Denver trade talks fell apart, the prevailing assumption was that they'd stick with him through at least the 2016 season.

[sancarlos]

FWIW, Jay Glazer, who was way out in front on the team moving on from Harbaugh, is now reporting that he'd be very surprised if Kaepernick is on the team at the end of the year. Others in the Bay Area are saying he may be a pre season cut. Obviously this is being framed as for "football reasons," but I hadn't seen any reporting that he might not even make the roster until this weekend. It would've made far more sense to cut him back in this spring before his 2016 salary became guaranteed, and in fact, there was a lot of speculation that would happen. But once his 2016 salary kicked in back in April and then the Denver trade talks fell apart, the prevailing assumption was that they'd stick with him through at least the 2016 season.

You'd think they'd keep him around, due to the guaranteed contract, and his history (he took them to a Super Bowl not that long ago, right?) But, he couldn't play in the first two preseason games and looked pretty bad in the third one, so not shocking if they cut him. Personally, I think they're stupid if they don't keep him around, because the 49ers aren't going anywhere this season anyway, and his potential is still there. And, fwiw, this tempest in a teapot is less of an issue in liberal San Francisco that it would be in, say Jacksonville.

[Joe K]

FWIW, Jay Glazer, who was way out in front on the team moving on from Harbaugh, is now reporting that he'd be very surprised if Kaepernick is on the team at the end of the year. Others in the Bay Area are saying he may be a pre season cut. Obviously this is being framed as for "football reasons," but I hadn't seen any reporting that he might not even make the roster until this weekend. It would've made far more sense to cut him back in this spring before his 2016 salary became guaranteed, and in fact, there was a lot of speculation that would happen. But once his 2016 salary kicked in back in April and then the Denver trade talks fell apart, the prevailing assumption was that they'd stick with him through at least the 2016 season.

You'd think they'd keep him around, due to the guaranteed contract, and his history (he took them to a Super Bowl not that long ago, right?) But, he couldn't play in the first two preseason games and looked pretty bad in the third one, so not shocking if they cut him. Personally, I think they're stupid if they don't keep him around, because the 49ers aren't going anywhere this season anyway, and his potential is still there. And, fwiw, this tempest in a teapot is less of an issue in liberal San Francisco that it would be in, say Jacksonville.

I agree. When the other QB options are Gabbert, Driskel and Ponder, I don't see why you wouldn't give him the chance to fully recover from his offseason surgeries and see if he can return to his 2012-2014 form. With Seattle and Arizona in your division, you're not sniffing the playoffs with any of those guys, so you might as well go with the upside of Kaepernick. It's not like they have someone like Dak Prescott who looks like a potential future star.

[L-Jam3]

You guys are also forgetting that Chip Kelly hates black people.

[SportsDoc]

Also what in the name of happy horseshit does him not standing for the anthem have to do with the troops? Someone explain that to me.

Depends on perspective doesn't it. Just because Kap says he is not disrepecting the troops and those who died for our freedoms and that he appreciates all those in the military, doesn't mean those in uniform don't take offense to what he did. He's not one of them. He's never served. Most of the military from what I'm seeing are not pleased with how he chose to show his protest, and they are voicing it. The best was an African American Army Ranger's response I heard read by Ross Tucker this morning on Sirius NFL.

If I call Howard a N-word, and say I'm not saying it to offend Howard, yet Howard is offended, whose side would you fall on? The guy who is black or the guy who's not. If Kap says he's not showing the military any disrespect, but those in the military are offended, which side do you fall on? Those in the military or the guy who's never served. I think that's an easy one.

Going back to what I said yesterday, I'd bet a dollar to a dime the NFL wishes it required players to stand for the flag and the anthem, but that horse has left the barn already.

[sancarlos]

Fun fact: I, personally have the same number of NFL career passing attempts as the newly-named starting quarterback of the defending Super Bowl champs!

[mister d]

SD: Its the american flag, not the american military flag. Giving them more say than you or I over the anthem isn't based in any fact.

[Johnnie]

To be fair, members of the military act like civilians should be forced to adhere to the same standards we do.

Ever get caught at 5 pm (I'm sorry...SEVENTEEN HUNDRED HOURS, HOOAH) and you have to stop everything you're doing and salute the flag immediately (or face the music) because the National Anthem came on? No?

Fucking commie. I have. And you better not run into a building our vehicle to avoid it either.

And we give up our freedoms so that you can have yours. Give me my fucking discount and thank me for my service. You're welcome.

[SportsDoc]

SD: Its the american flag, not the american military flag. Giving them more say than you or I over the anthem isn't based in any fact.

I'm not giving them more say, but they have the right to be offended by the action and Kap's response that he respects the military does not change the fact they are offended. It does not absolve him of the criticism they have. Just as he has the right to act this way doesn't mean others don't have the right to be offended by the action and be critical of it.

I am critical of it too, but to me those who served have a stronger argument than I do as a civilian. And, yes, regardless of where one stands, for each of us it is one perspective out of 300M.

[A_B]

SD: Its the american flag, not the american military flag. Giving them more say than you or I over the anthem isn't based in any fact.

I'm not giving them more say, but they have the right to be offended by the action and Kap's response that he respects the military does not change the fact they are offended. It does not absolve him of the criticism they have. Just as he has the right to act this way doesn't mean others don't have the right to be offended by the action and be critical of it.

I am critical of it too, but to me those who served have a stronger argument than I do as a civilian. And, yes, regardless of where one stands, for each of us it is one perspective out of 300M.

That's kinda his whole piint, no?

[mister d]

Absolutely have a right to be offended, but people use them as an appeal to authority, as if their being offended supersedes anyone else's lack of offense or support for Kaepernick.

[Rex]

Say what you want about the confederates, at least they kept their national and battle flags separate so you knew which one was about heritage and which one was about hate.

[Johnnie]

The military has the right to be pissed that on average 20 veterans a day are committing suicide in a country that "Supports the Troops" yet doesn't seem to get them health care when they're no longer serving.

The military has a right to be pissed that we're still at war for a government that uses us to further political influence in an area so we can keep profits rolling in for businesses addicted to war.

The military has a right to be pissed that we have a constant bullseye on our back in a foreign country because ours deems it necessary for us to continue to be everywhere at once and do fucked up shit.

The military has no fucking right to be pissed that a millionaire sat during an overplayed song by expressing his right of free speech that we swear to defend via our oath of enlistment.

And I fully reject any leap of logic that ties in a fucking song to the day to day worries of the military. We need to swing the pendulum back a bit on this "you hate the troops because [x] silliness."

[brian]

If people really cared about the troops they'd vote the bastards (Republican and Democrat) out of office who pay lip service to respecting their sacrifices and continue to cut funding programs for veterans.

[Rex]

Is there a reason why the military has to respond to this as a monolithic entity and not a bunch of men and women with their own thoughts on the matter?

[Nonlinear FC]

To be fair, members of the military act like civilians should be forced to adhere to the same standards we do.

Ever get caught at 5 pm (I'm sorry...SEVENTEEN HUNDRED HOURS, HOOAH) and you have to stop everything you're doing and salute the flag immediately (or face the music) because the National Anthem came on? No?

Fucking commie. I have. And you better not run into a building our vehicle to avoid it either.

And we give up our freedoms so that you can have yours. Give me my fucking discount and thank me for my service. You're welcome.

Man. This whole topic could be it's own thread. We are 2, maybe 3 generations in from the pendulum swing away from Vietnam and at some point this madness has to stop. A lot of us grew up on movies where the "deplorable treatment of Vietnam Vets" was drummed into us on a fairly constant basis. We were all culpable and, dammit, the next time, we were going to GET IT RIGHT, by golly.

So, we've now been at a near constant state of combat since 2001, not to mention the Desert Storm blip* which got things started. I was working down on the Mall when they had that ridiculous victory parade... Very Soviet-era vibe to that day. As has been well chronicled, we are told not "supporting the troops" is damn near an act of treason... Putting aside that "supporting the troops" means very different things to a wide swath of the citizenry.

But, in particular, this weird fucking relationship we have constructed between our professional and collegiate sporting events and the military... It's creepy. I don't think enough people step back and ask, WTF are we doing? Every Caps game I'm giving some military person a standing O?

And, btw... As Johnnie will tell you, the vast majority of the military, even guys/gals in combat theater, aren't involved in combat.

Also, and Johnnie alludes to it here... We have a volunteer armed force. This is a chosen profession. Is it laudable? Sure. Are each one of those folks heroes? Come the fuck on.

[Johnnie]

Is there a reason why the military has to respond to this as a monolithic entity and not a bunch of men and women with their own thoughts on the matter?

We're literally not allowed to. Giving an indication that your military members are for one party or another is a conflict of interest. It's why I'm actually so much more subdued on Facebook. I can get in serious trouble because of Facebook.

[Johnny Carwash]

Johnnie calling himself "subdued" on Facebook makes me really want to see how he acts elsewhere.

[Johnnie]

Johnnie calling himself "subdued" on Facebook makes me really want to see how he acts elsewhere.

Heh. Subdued in the sense that I won't say "Fuck Trump and fuck you for liking Trump, you shitbag ignorant fuck" on Facebook. Not for like, having an opinion, man.

[mister d]

Kelly's Roast Beef sucks.

[Johnnie]

I agree.

You fucking fuck.

[The Sybian]

SD: Its the american flag, not the american military flag. Giving them more say than you or I over the anthem isn't based in any fact.

I'm not giving them more say, but they have the right
I am critical of it too, but to me those who served have a stronger argument than I do as a civilian. And, yes, regardless of where one stands, for each of us it is one perspective out of 300M.

If I can speak for Mr. D, I think what he is saying is that standing for the anthem isn't about the military, but about nationalism. Well, I don't know what he thinks the anthem is about, but it isn't directed at the military. This is different than your racial slur analogy, as calling a black person a racial slur is an insult directly aimed at him. Kaepernick refusing to stand for the anthem has absolutely nothing to do with the military, but making a point that there are problems in our country that need to be addressed. Members of the military have every right to be offended, and they have every right to criticize Kaep, burn his jersey and boo him. I just don't think military members get greater weight in judging the morality of the protest.

As for cutting Kaep, the 49ers should keep him and allow him to continue protesting. Think of all the jerseys they are selling so fans can replace the Kaep jerseys they burned.

[A_B]

All the bosses have said the right things so far, but I will be interested to see if that continues if this gets more traction. The NFL is not as progressive as the NBA, where I think Silver loves that the players are speaking out and being in the media. Builds the overall brand. But there was a solid article at The Ringer that the NFL is "distraction-averse", which sounds exactly right. We'll see if at some point he gets punished. If so, there might be a full scale revolt on Goodells hands. We can only hope!

[brian]

All the bosses have said the right things so far, but I will be interested to see if that continues if this gets more traction. The NFL is not as progressive as the NBA, where I think Silver loves that the players are speaking out and being in the media. Builds the overall brand. But there was a solid article at The Ringer that the NFL is "distraction-averse", which sounds exactly right. We'll see if at some point he gets punished. If so, there might be a full scale revolt on Goodells hands. We can only hope!

Other possibility is that enough other players join him (regardless of whether he is punished or not) that the NFL is forced to act. They're all not fans of Goodell. How much they agree or don't agree with Kaepernick is probably irrelevant which I realize is kinda what you were saying.

[SportsDoc]

All the bosses have said the right things so far, but I will be interested to see if that continues if this gets more traction. The NFL is not as progressive as the NBA, where I think Silver loves that the players are speaking out and being in the media. Builds the overall brand. But there was a solid article at The Ringer that the NFL is "distraction-averse", which sounds exactly right. We'll see if at some point he gets punished. If so, there might be a full scale revolt on Goodells hands. We can only hope!

Already one new convert, a Philly rookie LB said he too will sit for anthem. I'm sure this will grow a bit more.

As for progressive NBA, they have it in their code that players must stand for flag and anthem, if that's progressive.

I also think from what I've read from military (including my SIL and his father), it isn't the anthem so much as the flag. Could be wrong, but that's how I've read the responses.

[mister d]

NBA only has that because they had this "problem" two decades ago.