2016 Presidential Race

howard · Post by **howard** » Sat Sep 24, 2016 4:36 pm

This could be the next installment of Celebrity Big Brother/The Surreal Life

howard · Post by **howard** » Sat Sep 24, 2016 4:48 pm

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Sat Sep 24, 2016 6:50 pm

Oh, Howard. Have you seen the response? (It's not verified, but I'm sure it's her account.)

howard · Post by **howard** » Sat Sep 24, 2016 6:58 pm

Oh yeah, I saw it. The election that keeps on giving.

Rex · Post by **Rex** » Sat Sep 24, 2016 8:20 pm

I love that that dude drove around the other sign and also avoided the bus stop sign.

DC47 · Post by **DC47** » Sun Sep 25, 2016 1:25 am

The Sybian wrote:DC!!! Nice to see you drop by, we were starting to worry about you.

I appreciate your kind thoughts.

DC47 · Post by **DC47** » Sun Sep 25, 2016 1:40 am

EnochRoot wrote:Have you ever seen the documentary entitled "The Wrecking Crew"?

Oh yeah. Loved it. Cleared up a lot of mystery for me about some of my favorite music. The lack of credits on some of the great albums coming out of LA in the 60s was mind-boggling. Someone was just killing it in the studio, and getting no recognition. Glad they at least got nice checks then, and recognition later that might have meant something to the ones who were still around.

What did you think of it?

DC47 · Post by **DC47** » Sun Sep 25, 2016 1:44 am

brian wrote:Heaven forbid DC's daughter ever have an opinion of her own as a woman or anyway upset males. Father of the year, this fuckin' guy. Climb back under your rock.

She'll get a chuckle out of your reply.

DC47 · Post by **DC47** » Sun Sep 25, 2016 1:45 am

howard wrote:Told'ya DC

So you hacked his account?

EnochRoot · Post by **EnochRoot** » Sun Sep 25, 2016 12:54 pm

DC47 wrote:
EnochRoot wrote:Have you ever seen the documentary entitled "The Wrecking Crew"?
Oh yeah. Loved it. Cleared up a lot of mystery for me about some of my favorite music. The lack of credits on some of the great albums coming out of LA in the 60s was mind-boggling. Someone was just killing it in the studio, and getting no recognition. Glad they at least got nice checks then, and recognition later that might have meant something to the ones who were still around.

What did you think of it?

I thought it was fantastic. They were paid well enough, and frankly, maybe they got their kicks knowing that they were handpicked by artists like Brian Wilson to get Pet Sounds just the way his mind wanted to hear it.

Session musicians...From Cornell Dupree to Nile Rodgers to Jimmy freakin Page....Rock and roll, baby.

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Sun Sep 25, 2016 2:28 pm

Johnnie wrote:The Full Marky.

The Ranger Up response.

Brontoburglar · Post by **Brontoburglar** » Sun Sep 25, 2016 9:24 pm

Brontoburglar wrote:Ted Cruz's candidacy is going to be fun.

So given the culmination of everything Friday, I figure my post to start this thread can officially be called prescient.

Brontoburglar · Post by **Brontoburglar** » Sun Sep 25, 2016 9:25 pm

Brontoburglar wrote:
Gunpowder wrote:Ted Cruz is not going to win, I don't know why anybody would be afraid of him.
Exactly. I think he's basically the Herman Cain of this election cycle in terms of attention vs. legitimacy.

This was not as prescient, however.

rass · Post by **rass** » Mon Sep 26, 2016 8:54 am

Old, but I just saw it this AM. Amazing...

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Mon Sep 26, 2016 12:23 pm

538 with this basically being a dead heat (slightest of leads for Clinton) and the lead in the Senate flipping to the GOP.

All you need is a "-R" at the end of your name and you can get elected because your base is uneducated, crazy, and easy to manipulate. But the Democrats did this to themselves.

Post by **brian** » Mon Sep 26, 2016 12:30 pm

Still six weeks until the election. Way too early for pants-pissing for a variety of reasons (the GOP has next to no ground game, polling this election is damn near impossible and if it really is close to 50/50 a lot of the Bernie dead-enders who say they're voting for Stein or Johnson will grudgingly vote for Clinton.)

EnochRoot · Post by **EnochRoot** » Mon Sep 26, 2016 1:26 pm

"The GOP has become an insurgent outlier in American politics. It is ideologically extreme; scornful of compromise; unmoved by conventional understanding of facts, evidence and science; and dismissive of the legitimacy of its political opposition. When one party moves this far from the mainstream, it makes it nearly impossible for the political system to deal constructively with the country’s challenges.”

"All politicians bend the truth to fit their purposes, including Hillary Clinton. But Donald J. Trump has unleashed a blizzard of falsehoods, exaggerations and outright lies in the general election, peppering his speeches, interviews and Twitter posts with untruths so frequent that they can seem flighty or random — even compulsive.”

The first quote is from Thomas Mann and Norman Ornstein’s thesis-turned-book “It’s Even Worse Than It Looks”..The latter quote is from Maggie Haberman and Alexander Burns (both, NYT). Both of these quotes were lifted from the blog below..

Below is a link to a fascinating, if not downright depressing, blog about how the political press is ill-prepared for an inveterate liar like Donald Trump.

http://pressthink.org/2016/09/asymmetry ... -press/#p0

degenerasian · Post by **degenerasian** » Mon Sep 26, 2016 2:22 pm

Johnnie wrote:538 with this basically being a dead heat (slightest of leads for Clinton) and the lead in the Senate flipping to the GOP.

All you need is a "-R" at the end of your name and you can get elected because your base is uneducated, crazy, and easy to manipulate. But the Democrats did this to themselves.

Will Obama's legacy be that he was so bad that even Hilary couldn't save it against a clown like Trump? Did Obama create Trump? Would things have been different if Hillary had won in 2008? Or is US politics just this way.

Post by **brian** » Mon Sep 26, 2016 2:31 pm

If Trump somehow wins which is a big if still at this point, Obama's legacy is fine. Or no worse than Clinton 42's after Bush beats Gore.

I think history will regard Obama very, very kindly. When you factor in everything up against him from taking office during an almost depression to dealing with racial bullshit to Republicans blocking everything in Congress for six years that he was still able to steer the economy to the second-longest period of growth in American history it's almost short of a miracle. He's in the top 10 easily.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Mon Sep 26, 2016 2:48 pm

degenerasian wrote:Will Obama's legacy be that he was so bad that even Hilary couldn't save it against a clown like Trump?

"Even" Hillary? This is pretty much backwards. She'd be on the shitpile of history for blowing Obama's goodwill. I mean, technically it'd be on the electorate, but she'll look extremely bad.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Mon Sep 26, 2016 2:53 pm

Its 100% on the electorate. If you're willing to vote Trump, it doesn't reflect on his opponent at all.

tennbengal · Post by **tennbengal** » Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:10 pm

degenerasian wrote:
Johnnie wrote:538 with this basically being a dead heat (slightest of leads for Clinton) and the lead in the Senate flipping to the GOP.

All you need is a "-R" at the end of your name and you can get elected because your base is uneducated, crazy, and easy to manipulate. But the Democrats did this to themselves.
Will Obama's legacy be that he was so bad that even Hilary couldn't save it against a clown like Trump? Did Obama create Trump? Would things have been different if Hillary had won in 2008? Or is US politics just this way.

He's got a higher approval rating now than even Reagan had in September of 1988. Your question is kinda fucked up and ass-backwards.

Joe K · Post by **Joe K** » Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:21 pm

Ryan wrote:
degenerasian wrote:Will Obama's legacy be that he was so bad that even Hilary couldn't save it against a clown like Trump?
"Even" Hillary? This is pretty much backwards. She'd be on the shitpile of history for blowing Obama's goodwill. I mean, technically it'd be on the electorate, but she'll look extremely bad.

mister d wrote:Its 100% on the electorate. If you're willing to vote Trump, it doesn't reflect on his opponent at all.

I largely agree with this. In my opinion, support for Trump is largely driven by a white supremacist backlash against the election of our first black President. Putting that on Obama, as opposed to the electorate, is absurd.

At the same time, Hillary is possibly the only candidate the Democratic Party could have nominated whose unfavorability rankings rival Trump's. If Kaine were the nominee with a generic VP, I doubt it's a close race.

Post by **brian** » Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:26 pm

I disagree (in part). I think that Trump would be murdering quite a few potential realistic major Democratic candidates I could name including Bernie Sanders.

But someone like Elizabeth Warren with some serious name recognition and party bonafides would probably be stomping Trump.

degenerasian · Post by **degenerasian** » Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:29 pm

brian wrote:I disagree (in part). I think that Trump would be murdering quite a few potential realistic major Democratic candidates I could name including Bernie Sanders.

But someone like Elizabeth Warren with some serious name recognition and party bonafides would probably be stomping Trump.

hmmm hasn't Trump been railing against 'the establishment'? Hillary being Secretary of State hits too close to home. Warren being a Senator, is that too close as well?

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:30 pm

I don't see Warren doing any better than Sanders.

sancarlos · Post by **sancarlos** » Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:30 pm

I seem to recall that Joe Biden was seriously considering a run, but the DNC types got their hackles way up that he would even consider mounting a challenge to Ms. Clinton, and he backed down. So, there was really never going to be any other serious candidate for the Democratic nomination, unless they were willing to fight and buck the system like Sanders did.

Joe K · Post by **Joe K** » Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:42 pm

brian wrote:I disagree (in part). I think that Trump would be murdering quite a few potential realistic major Democratic candidates I could name including Bernie Sanders.

But someone like Elizabeth Warren with some serious name recognition and party bonafides would probably be stomping Trump.

I think Biden, Kaine and Deval Patrick would all easily beat Trump. I agree with Mr. D than Warren would have a comparable shot as Sanders. Both would be risky choices, but FWIW, polls taken during the primaries consistently showed Sanders doing much better against Trump than Hillary was.

Post by **brian** » Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:44 pm

mister d wrote:I don't see Warren doing any better than Sanders.

Midwest voters and others would have abandoned him in seconds after attack ads where he's quoted praising Mao, albeit back in the 80s. Not mention the rest of his extreme leftist past. Hard to attack Trump for supporting fascists like Putin and Kim when Sanders had/has pet fascists of his own.

Warren or Biden would both be wiping the floor with Trump. Anyone else in the Democratic Party -- I'm not so sure.

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:45 pm

Did Obama create Trump? Are you fucking kidding?

The GOP married into a contract with the most baseless individuals hellbent on being non-progressive on social issues from long ago.

In 2008, to counteract Obama, they wanted a "spark" with the McCain VP pick and chose Palin which legitimized the crazy - the type of crazy that calls into Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity radio shows. The type of crazy too crazy to know they are crazy.

With their subsequent failure and election of a black guy and a sudden shift towards a "liberal agenda," they doubled down and aligned with the Tea Party. They then rallied their base like never before and swept to power in Congress. They then set unprecedented maneuvers (like a filibuster as the norm) to stonewall everything.

Then, after failing to unseat Obama with Romneybot in 2012 they geared up for this year as their comeback year. The Dems preordained Hillary because fuck riding the wave of progressivism. And theThe GOP base, which through the proliferation of social media and the decline of anyone who would check them, who would murder their own children to not have Hillary as president and seeing that a moderately tempered damp washcloth is a weak nomination, have come roaring back in full force riding the coattails of one Orange Sociopath spewing forth the dog whistle politics of GOP talk radio.

That's where we are. Putting that shit on Obama is ridiculous.

Post by **brian** » Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:48 pm

Joe K wrote:
brian wrote:I disagree (in part). I think that Trump would be murdering quite a few potential realistic major Democratic candidates I could name including Bernie Sanders.

But someone like Elizabeth Warren with some serious name recognition and party bonafides would probably be stomping Trump.
I think Biden, Kaine and Deval Patrick would all easily beat Trump. I agree with Mr. D than Warren would have a comparable shot as Sanders. Both would be risky choices, but FWIW, polls taken during the primaries consistently showed Sanders doing much better against Trump than Hillary was.

Probably 95 percent of Democrats much less Americans couldn't pick Deval Patrick out of a lineup. I think even Cory Booker would have probably moved the needle more than Patrick or Kaine or O'Malley et al, but granted it would have been difficult to follow Obama with another black guy with a sparse national governing resume (which isn't fair to Booker of course, but life isn't fair).

Giff · Post by **Giff** » Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:58 pm

I think any other candidate would be doing better. A lot of what is driving this is Hillary hate. At least from Republicans I know that are supporting Trump, I'm hearing the same awful bullshit about her I heard back in the 90s as like the only Clinton voter in my family, dorm or zip code.

Joe K · Post by **Joe K** » Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:58 pm

brian wrote:
mister d wrote:I don't see Warren doing any better than Sanders.
Midwest voters and others would have abandoned him in seconds after attack ads where he's quoted praising Mao, albeit back in the 80s. Not mention the rest of his extreme leftist past. Hard to attack Trump for supporting fascists like Putin and Kim when Sanders had/has pet fascists of his own.

Warren or Biden would both be wiping the floor with Trump. Anyone else in the Democratic Party -- I'm not so sure.

Counterpoint: there's no evidence that the persistent attempts by Clinton to tie Trump to Putin have had any success whatsoever. In fact, her lead has been steadily dwindling since that became a major campaign theme. Maybe the key to this race isn't who can redbait better but rather who can appeal to voters frustrated with the economic effects of globalization. The primary pollling consistently showed Sanders beating Trump easily while Clinton was locked in a tough race. We'll never know about the first part but the second part is looking accurate.

GoodKarma · Post by **GoodKarma** » Mon Sep 26, 2016 4:07 pm

Johnnie and sancarlos hit the nail on the head with their previous posts...the DNC wanted Hillary in 2008 but couldn't ignore the Obama surge so she had to be put on the back burner until now. 2016 was always going to be her time regardless of what the political climate turned out to be.

I was just telling someone on Friday night that Trump isn't the beginning of anything new...if anything, Sarah Palin is what got us to where we are today...I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks that. Progressive-ism is what freaks these folks out...Obama is just the only label anyone can think to identify.

That being said, I think this election is nothing but noise...a lot of barking for what will end up being not a lot of change, even if Trump wins (I was also one of the many that said Trump had no shot 15 months ago and has realized that he still does have a chance - every mall shooting; every hacked email and every police shooting/BLM protest between now and November does nothing but help him). It will not surprise me if Hillary is a one term prez...so whether it's 2020 or 2024 that is when the real fun will begin. If the GOP continues on the current course of giving voice to the crazies like Cruz, then they will never win another general election b/c the Dems are going to start throwing out guys like Corey Booker (despite his terrible convention speech) and Gavin Newsom who, at their current status, seem unbeatable.

Post by **brian** » Mon Sep 26, 2016 4:11 pm

And Clinton was up by 8-9 points after the DNC convention which is higher than Sanders was ever polling over Trump (that I saw at least). "Blaming" Hillary is way too easy and not necessarily accurate. Trump has managed to get out of his own way in the last few weeks while the media has blown this Clinton Foundation nonsense and her pneumonia way out of proportion. The media abhors a vacuum and a non-close presidential race so it was always going to tighten even if Jesus F Christ himself was the Democratic candidate.

It happened in 2004, it happened in 2008, it happened in 2012 and it's happening now. I'm skeptical that Trump is actually "winning over" uncommitteds simply since there's really no such thing any more. His ceiling is his ceiling and the only thing that's going to steer things his way is possible Dem voters going third-party. That could be enough to swing the election, but it's not going to be Trump winning anyone over currently committed to Clinton based on his ideas or his merits. I think there's a "soft" base of 5 to 6 percent in most swing states that will ultimately go for Clinton if it's close in Ohio, Florida, North Carolina, etc. Even her winning one of those three puts the election out of reach short of some unforeseen catastrophe.

sancarlos · Post by **sancarlos** » Mon Sep 26, 2016 4:17 pm

Man, I hope you are right. I can't even fathom the list of potential disasters that suddenly become more real possibilities with Trump as our President. It is still shocking to me that so many otherwise sensible people don't see this.

Post by **brian** » Mon Sep 26, 2016 4:23 pm

I can't get over how far gone the Republicans are that two former Republican presidents saying they're not supporting Trump isn't like the hugest red flag ever. Could you imagine the bed-wetting and insanity if Carter in 2008 had said he was voting for McCain over Obama?

Honestly I have enough respect for Jimmy Carter that in that scenario I would have to take a long, long hard look into my support for that fictional Obama (or whomever he theoretically didn't support). Yet you've got so many people on the right (though not all to be fair) making up all kind of straw men as to why the Bushes have it out for Trump other than the obvious, logical reasons.

It's one more shitty cherry on the shitty sundae that is this shitty election.

degenerasian · Post by **degenerasian** » Mon Sep 26, 2016 4:29 pm

brian wrote:I can't get over how far gone the Republicans are that two former Republican presidents saying they're not supporting Trump isn't like the hugest red flag ever. Could you imagine the bed-wetting and insanity if Carter in 2008 had said he was voting for McCain over Obama?

Honestly I have enough respect for Jimmy Carter that in that scenario I would have to take a long, long hard look into my support for that fictional Obama (or whomever he theoretically didn't support). Yet you've got so many people on the right (though not all to be fair) making up all kind of straw men as to why the Bushes have it out for Trump other than the obvious, logical reasons.

It's one more shitty cherry on the shitty sundae that is this shitty election.

It shows how far the Republicans are removed from the Bushes. The Bushes are decent people and have to good relationship with the Clintons. Bill and Dubya are always attending each other's foundations. But the Republicans have gone full hate now. That wingnut Republican talk radio pounding the same message over and over every afternoon for 8 years is working. The questions above still stand, did Obama directly or indirectly create this or does it go way back further or is it Hillary? How did America get to today.

Post by **brian** » Mon Sep 26, 2016 4:32 pm

Well, Obama didn't create racism (no matter how much Republicans might say it), so Obama has nothing to do with a decent-sized percentage of Americans being turd-people.

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Mon Sep 26, 2016 4:34 pm

sancarlos wrote:It is still shocking to me that so many otherwise sensible people don't see this.

If they don't see it, they are not sensible people at all. They are uniformed and intentionally ignorant.

The mass populace of Trump supporters are white people that are latently racist/sexist at best. And you aren't going to convince them otherwise. Sure they'll say "sir" and "ma'am" with a lot of charm, but they are two faced.

I've been in close quarters deployed with the rednecks from rural America that make up large segments of the military. They are Republican through and through. When the minorities are away and politics is the topic of discussion, some shit flows from them that I wish I hadn't heard. And when you're at a party where there's alcohol, just fucking leave. There's no talking sense to rabid dogs.

That's the type of people that vote without regard for anyone. I hate them.