2016 Presidential Race

[brian]

Getting real about free trade in the Rust Belt would have been the right move. NAFTA or no those jobs are never coming back. What MIGHT be coming back would be green energy jobs and at least the Dems had a plan for that. Trump isn't bringing those jobs back.

[Johnnie]

Guns are going to be cheap. Their stocks dropped.

But suit yourselves.

[Steve of phpBB]

Good stuff from Paul Waldman in the Washington Post:

But the emails, you say, the emails. Isn’t that all her fault? It may be hard at this point to step back and look at this issue objectively after so much has been said about it. But if you could manage that, you’d have to admit that the real story of her emails is that what was at worst a misdemeanor was blown up by her opponent and an eager news media into the crime of the century. Yes, it was a failure in judgment to expose her communications to potential hacking by not using the State Department system. But she was facing a man who refused to release his tax returns, who left a string of business grifts behind him, who has had over a dozen women testifying to the sexual predation that he admitted to on tape, who has run a foundation that appears to be an outright scam from top to bottom, who has employed undocumented workers and been charged with housing discrimination and cheats small business contractors out of the money he owes them, yet Hillary Clinton is supposed to be irredeemably corrupt because she used the wrong email address.

When you listen to Trump’s voters talk about the emails, you’re tempted to believe they’ve simply lost their minds. They’re livid, disgusted, enraged that she could get away with such a horrific crime. This didn’t come from their deep and longstanding concern for cybersecurity. For them, the emails became a vessel into which they could pour every ounce of hatred they felt at Clinton and whatever combination of resentments they brought to the campaign. Most of them couldn’t tell you what exactly she was supposed to have done wrong and why it’s so terribly disqualifying; all they knew was that it’s something about emails, and that bitch ought to be locked up.

I am pretty sure Hillary hit Trump's screwing of small businesses and contractors very hard during the election, along with his use of Chinese steel, etc. But it just doesn't matter.

Yes, the Trumpers voted for "change". But not economic change. Trump had basically the same support among white people at every income level above $50,000. Whites with an income below that went for Hillary. And if they wanted economic change, they would not have voted for the same Republican party that has been setting economic policy for the past few decades.

The change they were voting for was change to the social direction of the country. Trump drove media coverage, so once he raised issues about immigration, refugees, Muslims, Black Lives Matter, etc., Hillary had to respond. She either had to say "me too" or point out that Trump's positions on these issues were hateful and bigoted and un-American. To her credit, she did the latter.

As far as I can tell, Hillary ran a more liberal campaign than either of Obama's. White people just didn't want it. They want to go back to their rose-colored memory of the 1950s.

[TT2.0]

From my vantage point in ultra ted texas, just about anybody else could and would have beaten trump. There is a deep seated hatred of hillary that the dnc ignored. It didnt matter what he did or said, people here would literally never vote hillary no matter what. She couldnt overcome latent racism and open misogyny and the general opinion that she is an evil criminal. I think bernie would have dropped trump easily and the turnout wouldve been much higher. The reality is to people down here people felt like hillary felt entitled to the presidency, & nobody much wanted to help hand it to her. Its a sad day to be sure, but underestimating the stupidity of the american people has cost us 8 years of bush, & now its repeated himself

[Sabo]

Guns are going to be cheap. Their stocks dropped.

But suit yourselves.

Guns themselves aren't that expensive. It's the ammo that's been way overpriced, and almost all of that is because gun owners were stockpiling ammo because Obama was going to bring about the End of Days. Even the shortage of .22 long rifle was caused by gun owners because they found shooting .223 ammo was expensive and bought conversion kits so their rifles could shoot .22 LR. Hell, even some reloading supplies are in high demand because so many people started to reload due to the high price and scarcity of ammo. And it's almost entirely the fault of the gun owners.

[Nonlinear FC]

A few thoughts:

* I think this election is the death knell for our current iteration of polling. Not much more to say on that, other than clearly the methods currently employed are not effective. (cell phones, changing demographics, whatever... shit is broken)

* About that... There is a pretty big misconception that Trump's campaign did not do extensive polling and did very little GOTV. That's simply not the case. Go find the Buzzfeed article that came out a couple of weeks ago to disavow yourself of this notion. He had a fairly sophisticated operation, based on Silicon Valley-infused databases and outreach coordination. People treated him and his operation like it was a joke. It was not.

* And, about that... I love me a good John Oliver rant, or a good SNL send up as much as the next guy. Feels good to ridicule and mock and condescend. It's cathartic, especially when you know you're on the right side of history. So, I'm not going to be hypocritical and call anyone out on that. But we all need to understand, folks in rural America are clearly fed up with being the butt of every joke they see on TV. They are clearly tired of being told John can marry Steve and now Bruce turned Caitlyn can go to the bathroom in the lady's room. Suck it up and deal, America. There's a black president in the White House and yet everyone is still yelling at "us" for being racists and they're calling all of our police killers and Nazis. We aren't in the KKK, yet they are constantly bringing that up and throwing David Duke at us... That's not who I am, so fuck off already.

I, obviously, am not espousing any of those views, just acknowledging they are out there. And with Fox News and Breitbart and that whole echo chamber bouncing up and down for decades about how our country is coming apart at the social seams... This election was clearly a big Fuck You to the "establishment," the PC police and all the voices telling rural white America how terrible they are.

I am still in shock... But the shock is really giving way to some serious anger, primarily directed at the DNC and the HRC campaign. For the 2nd time in 16 years, more people voted for a Democrat than a Republican and yet... Here we are.

[The Sybian]

What should she have done differently?

Where to begin? I feel like her entire campaign was "did you hear the crazy thing Trump just said?" With so much baggage, I didn't hear nearly enough of an explanation of why it wasn't damaging, just a complete avoidance of the questions. Granted, Trump was an extremely difficult opponent to run against, she had to constantly deflect his blatant lies and attacks. That was the genius of his debates, he made Clinton spend most of her time correct his false accusations and baseless claims. Meanwhile, whenever she tried to set the record straight, he'd yell "wrong," and his people would believe him. He made a complete play on emotions and fear, without any policy, or ideas. I don't know if she could have chipped away at that, as his followers believed "I am the only one who can fix this. I will make everything great, believe me" was a valid policy platform.

Putting up Hillary without any real competition was an enormous mistake by the DNC. Regardless of the validity of most of the attacks, the majority of people believe them. She comes across terribly. Whether she is or not, she comes across as completely insincere are barely human. She has the reputation of being a greedy, power hungry self-serving politician willing to sell influence and power to the highest bidder. She did nothing to dissuade that.

Hillary did not try to relate to middle America, but I don't think she is capable of that. She didn't provide people with the simple answers they want to hear, or even let them know she understands their needs and hopes. During speeches and the debates, she gave great policy oriented answers and used legal and political terms of art to explain things, and I guarantee 90% of America had no clue what she was talking about. Beyond not understanding, they received the message as condescending and typical politician speech (when people clearly don't like politicians). Hillary kept pushing people to go to her website and read her detailed plans. In this day of 8 second attention spans and embedded video sound bytes, who is sitting down and reading the policy proposals on her website?

TL/DR: I don't think she did a damned thing to increase her likability, trustworthiness or show she could understand and help middle America. She came off as what she is, a lifelong political powerhouse who has used her power and influence to stockpile a fortune and sell political influence. She is shady as fuck, and did nothing to change that perception. In fact, I'd say she furthered the perception. I've always said the Clinton's responses to allegations make them look worse than the allegations alone. The way they try to cleverly wordsmith around the allegation makes them look guilty and slimy.

[Steve of phpBB]

nd, about that... I love me a good John Oliver rant, or a good SNL send up as much as the next guy. Feels good to ridicule and mock and condescend. It's cathartic, especially when you know you're on the right side of history. So, I'm not going to be hypocritical and call anyone out on that. But we all need to understand, folks in rural America are clearly fed up with being the butt of every joke they see on TV. They are clearly tired of being told John can marry Steve and now Bruce turned Caitlyn can go to the bathroom in the lady's room. Suck it up and deal, America. There's a black president in the White House and yet everyone is still yelling at "us" for being racists and they're calling all of our police killers and Nazis. We aren't in the KKK, yet they are constantly bringing that up and throwing David Duke at us... That's not who I am, so fuck off already.

I, obviously, am not espousing any of those views, just acknowledging they are out there. And with Fox News and Breitbart and that whole echo chamber bouncing up and down for decades about how our country is coming apart at the social seams... This election was clearly a big Fuck You to the "establishment," the PC police and all the voices telling rural white America how terrible they are.

I don't watch SNL, but I don't recall too many John Oliver rants mocking and condescending to rural America.

I feel that the reaction is not really to any actual condescension or mocking, but rather to the substance of those issues - their traditional values on gay marriage, and other things religious and sexual *are* losing, a black president really was elected, white Christian people really are on their way to being a non-majority, and it turns out that white cops really are killing a bunch of unarmed black guys. Short of getting on board with things like that North Carolina bathroom law, or shouting down Black Lives Matter, is there anything liberal-minded people could actually do that would make these people less hostile to the liberal project?

[Pruitt]

A few thoughts:

* About that... There is a pretty big misconception that Trump's campaign did not do extensive polling and did very little GOTV. That's simply not the case. Go find the Buzzfeed article that came out a couple of weeks ago to disavow yourself of this notion. He had a fairly sophisticated operation, based on Silicon Valley-infused databases and outreach coordination. People treated him and his operation like it was a joke. It was not.

A big part of the narrative in the media outlets I read. New York and Washington-based and all mainstream. I mean, how recently was it that a lot of people were still speculating that Trump didn't actually want to win?

[Joe K]

nd, about that... I love me a good John Oliver rant, or a good SNL send up as much as the next guy. Feels good to ridicule and mock and condescend. It's cathartic, especially when you know you're on the right side of history. So, I'm not going to be hypocritical and call anyone out on that. But we all need to understand, folks in rural America are clearly fed up with being the butt of every joke they see on TV. They are clearly tired of being told John can marry Steve and now Bruce turned Caitlyn can go to the bathroom in the lady's room. Suck it up and deal, America. There's a black president in the White House and yet everyone is still yelling at "us" for being racists and they're calling all of our police killers and Nazis. We aren't in the KKK, yet they are constantly bringing that up and throwing David Duke at us... That's not who I am, so fuck off already.

I, obviously, am not espousing any of those views, just acknowledging they are out there. And with Fox News and Breitbart and that whole echo chamber bouncing up and down for decades about how our country is coming apart at the social seams... This election was clearly a big Fuck You to the "establishment," the PC police and all the voices telling rural white America how terrible they are.

I don't watch SNL, but I don't recall too many John Oliver rants mocking and condescending to rural America.

I feel that the reaction is not really to any actual condescension or mocking, but rather to the substance of those issues - their traditional values on gay marriage, and other things religious and sexual *are* losing, a black president really was elected, white Christian people really are on their way to being a non-majority, and it turns out that white cops really are killing a bunch of unarmed black guys. Short of getting on board with things like that North Carolina bathroom law, or shouting down Black Lives Matter, is there anything liberal-minded people could actually do that would make these people less hostile to the liberal project?

Perhaps the biggest statewide success story for the Democrats in recent cycles is Nevada. Many analysts have attributed that to the effort to build and mobilize the culinary workers' union. In contrast, the Clintons and DNC have been far more interested in cozying up to Wall Street than in building a renewed labor movement. Given that Obama was able to win the same Rust Belt states that Clinton lost, despite being viewed as very liberal, I'm convinced that the path forward is to offer sufficient economic benefits to working people (and not just the banks) such that those voters will look past whatever reservations they may have about Democrats' positions on social issues. Obama did this twice, so it's hardly an insurmountable task. It's just that Clinton was particularly ill-suited to do it. I still think Biden wins in a walk for this very reason.

[The Sybian]

I'm too overwhelmed to type out my thoughts on where things go from here, so I will finally take a moment to defend AB, not that he needs defending, but a couple comments were unnecessarily antagonistic.

When AB first wrote his explanation of why he was voting for McMullin, I was going to applaud the post, but kept getting sidetracked by all of the other discussions. I really appreciated the detailed thought process, and while I don't agree with McMullin's policy positions, I totally respect AB's decision. I don't know nearly enough about McMullin, but what I did see of him, he always came across as knowledgeable, intelligent, even keeled and someone who could work across the aisle. Could be totally wrong, but that's the impression he gave me. I don't know nearly enough about his policies, but he seemed pretty moderate Conservative.

I get the arguments about the election being a binary choice, and that is why I held my nose and voted Hillary. Not a fan at all, but... Trump. If If my views were more Conservative and I was a Republican, I could totally see Hillary being an equally bad choice. Trump's policies will very likely be inline with Conservatives, as I don't see him bucking the GOP policy much. Then again, who knows what the fuck he will do. If I was a Conservative, I know for damn sure Hillary's policies will continue to pull the country left. Not to mention, Hillary comes with a fuckton of baggage, and a history of cashing in on her power and influence, as well as self serving greed. Hillary flaunts the laws and the rules, and arrogantly knows she is above the law.

So, AB identifies as right of center, has a candidate that he actually likes, and is voting in a state that Trump was guaranteed to win anyways, why wouldn't he vote for McMullin? This is completely different than a Liberal rebelling and throwing a vote to Stein.

[tennbengal]

So much change coming. A 17-year veteran of Goldman Sachs apparently headed for Treasury.

[Nonlinear FC]

nd, about that... I love me a good John Oliver rant, or a good SNL send up as much as the next guy. Feels good to ridicule and mock and condescend. It's cathartic, especially when you know you're on the right side of history. So, I'm not going to be hypocritical and call anyone out on that. But we all need to understand, folks in rural America are clearly fed up with being the butt of every joke they see on TV. They are clearly tired of being told John can marry Steve and now Bruce turned Caitlyn can go to the bathroom in the lady's room. Suck it up and deal, America. There's a black president in the White House and yet everyone is still yelling at "us" for being racists and they're calling all of our police killers and Nazis. We aren't in the KKK, yet they are constantly bringing that up and throwing David Duke at us... That's not who I am, so fuck off already.

I, obviously, am not espousing any of those views, just acknowledging they are out there. And with Fox News and Breitbart and that whole echo chamber bouncing up and down for decades about how our country is coming apart at the social seams... This election was clearly a big Fuck You to the "establishment," the PC police and all the voices telling rural white America how terrible they are.

I don't watch SNL, but I don't recall too many John Oliver rants mocking and condescending to rural America.

I feel that the reaction is not really to any actual condescension or mocking, but rather to the substance of those issues - their traditional values on gay marriage, and other things religious and sexual *are* losing, a black president really was elected, white Christian people really are on their way to being a non-majority, and it turns out that white cops really are killing a bunch of unarmed black guys. Short of getting on board with things like that North Carolina bathroom law, or shouting down Black Lives Matter, is there anything liberal-minded people could actually do that would make these people less hostile to the liberal project?

You nailed it with the shrinking majority. We are mostly in agreement, just dancing around semantics. Frankly, what you are saying isn't mutually exclusive to what I'm saying. The overall point is that white, rural America was sending an anti-establishment, anti-Washington message with this vote.

(John Oliver, The Daily Show, Samantha Bee, SNL, etc. aren't necessarily mocking rural America. But they are certainly mocking and ridiculing folks that espouse points of view that run up against their fairly liberal world view. It's more about the overall cultural divide. A lot of these folks are convinced our college campuses have been overrun by far leftists who are churning out the next batch of socialists... just another example there.)

And while I'm fully on board with the notion that our justice system and our policing methods need a massive overhaul... That's an affront to a HUGE number of (almost exclusively) white people in this country. I hate that it's the case, but it's also undeniable. Most white people in this country have no idea how bad it can be for people of color when it comes to the police/justice system.

[degenerasian]

nd, about that... I love me a good John Oliver rant, or a good SNL send up as much as the next guy. Feels good to ridicule and mock and condescend. It's cathartic, especially when you know you're on the right side of history. So, I'm not going to be hypocritical and call anyone out on that. But we all need to understand, folks in rural America are clearly fed up with being the butt of every joke they see on TV. They are clearly tired of being told John can marry Steve and now Bruce turned Caitlyn can go to the bathroom in the lady's room. Suck it up and deal, America. There's a black president in the White House and yet everyone is still yelling at "us" for being racists and they're calling all of our police killers and Nazis. We aren't in the KKK, yet they are constantly bringing that up and throwing David Duke at us... That's not who I am, so fuck off already.

I, obviously, am not espousing any of those views, just acknowledging they are out there. And with Fox News and Breitbart and that whole echo chamber bouncing up and down for decades about how our country is coming apart at the social seams... This election was clearly a big Fuck You to the "establishment," the PC police and all the voices telling rural white America how terrible they are.

I don't watch SNL, but I don't recall too many John Oliver rants mocking and condescending to rural America.

I feel that the reaction is not really to any actual condescension or mocking, but rather to the substance of those issues - their traditional values on gay marriage, and other things religious and sexual *are* losing, a black president really was elected, white Christian people really are on their way to being a non-majority, and it turns out that white cops really are killing a bunch of unarmed black guys. Short of getting on board with things like that North Carolina bathroom law, or shouting down Black Lives Matter, is there anything liberal-minded people could actually do that would make these people less hostile to the liberal project?

You nailed it with the shrinking majority. We are mostly in agreement, just dancing around semantics. Frankly, what you are saying isn't mutually exclusive to what I'm saying. The overall point is that white, rural America was sending an anti-establishment, anti-Washington message with this vote.

(John Oliver, The Daily Show, Samantha Bee, SNL, etc. aren't necessarily mocking rural America. But they are certainly mocking and ridiculing folks that espouse points of view that run up against their fairly liberal world view. It's more about the overall cultural divide. A lot of these folks are convinced our college campuses have been overrun by far leftists who are churning out the next batch of socialists... just another example there.)

And while I'm fully on board with the notion that our justice system and our policing methods need a massive overhaul... That's an affront to a HUGE number of (almost exclusively) white people in this country. I hate that it's the case, but it's also undeniable. Most white people in this country have no idea how bad it can be for people of color when it comes to the police/justice system.

I was saying way earlier in the thread that i was worried about media and comedians. Sure it's funny but not when it's that constant. We talked about 'that guy' in the middle america whose factory left town. Stop calling him stupid just because he doesn't have a college degree and doesn't agree with the millennials view on life.

Also I thought some of Hillary;s plans were poor. People are upset about refugees. American is letting 10000 in, just leave it alone. Stay quiet. Instead she doubles down.. i'll let 65000 in! That just stokes the fires on the other side.

[Joe K]

Epic rant from Stan Van Gundy:

“I didn’t vote for (George W.) Bush, but he was a good, honorable man with whom I had political differences, so I didn’t vote for him. But for our country to be where we are now, who took a guy who -- I don’t care what anyone says, I’m sure they have other reasons and maybe good reasons for voting for Donald Trump -- but I don’t think anybody can deny this guy is openly and brazenly racist and misogynistic and ethnic-centric, and say, ‘That’s OK with us, we’re going to vote for him anyway.'
“We have just thrown a good part of our population under the bus, and I have problems with thinking that this is where we are as a country. It’s tough on (the team), we noticed it coming in. Everybody was a little quiet, and I thought, ‘Well, maybe the game the other night.’ And so we talked about that, but then Aron Baynes said, ‘I don’t think that’s why everybody’s quiet. It’s last night.’

“It’s just, we have said -- and my daughters, the three of them -- our society has said, ‘No, we think you should be second-class citizens. We want you to be second-class citizens. And we embrace a guy who is openly misogynistic as our leader.' I don’t know how we get past that.

“Martin Luther King said, 'The arc of the moral universe is long, but bends toward justice.' I would have believed in that for a long time, but not today. … What we have done to minorities … in this election is despicable. I’m having a hard time dealing with it. This isn’t your normal candidate. I don’t know even know if I have political differences with him. I don’t even know what are his politics. I don’t know, other than to build a wall and 'I hate people of color, and women are to be treated as sex objects and as servants to men.' I don’t know how you get past that. I don’t know how you walk into the booth and vote for that.

“I understand problems with the economy. I understand all the problems with Hillary Clinton, I do. But certain things in our country should disqualify you. And the fact that millions and millions of Americans don’t think that racism and sexism disqualifies you to be our leader, in our country ... . We presume to tell other countries about human-rights abuses and everything else. We better never do that again, when our leaders talk to China or anybody else about human-rights abuses.

“We just elected an openly, brazen misogynist leader and we should keep our mouths shut and realize that we need to be learning maybe from the rest of the world, because we don’t got anything to teach anybody.

“It’s embarrassing. I have been ashamed of a lot of things that have happened in this country, but I can’t say I’ve ever been ashamed of our country until today. Until today. We all have to find our way to move forward, but that was -- and I’m not even trying to make a political statement. To me, that’s beyond politics.

“You don’t get to come out and talk about people like that, and then lead our country and have millions of Americans embrace you. I’m having a hard time being with people. I’m going to walk into this arena tonight and realize that -- especially in this state -- most of these people voted for the guy. Like, (expletive), I don’t have any respect for that. I don’t.

“And then you read how he was embraced by conservative Christians. Evangelical Christians. I’m not a religious guy, but what the hell Bible are they reading? I’m dead serious. What Bible are you reading? And you’re supposed to be — it’s different. There are a lot of different groups we can be upset at. But you’re Christians. You’re supposed to be — at least you pride yourself on being the moral compass of our society. And you said, ‘Yeah, the guy can talk about women like that. I’m fine with that.’ He can disparage every ethnic group, and I’m fine with that.

“Look, I don’t get it. And I’m having a hard time taking it. I’m just glad that the people I’m with here — and I’ll include you guys, too — that I like. Because I’m going to have a hard time. I will say, one point of pride, I live in Oakland County, Michigan, and I was surprised, but Oakland County voted for Clinton. At least I can look around say, ‘We weren’t the ones putting that guy in office.'

“It’s incredible. I don’t know how you go about it, if you’re a person of color today or a Latino. Because white society just said to you, again -- not like we haven’t forever -- but again, and emphatically, that I don’t think you deserve equality. We don’t think you deserve respect. And the same with women. That’s what we say today, as a country. We should be ashamed for what we stand for as the United States today.

“That’s it for me. I don’t have anything to say about the game tonight."

[Johnnie]

That was excellent.

Here's hoping the NBA - and the nation - sits during the National Anthem and takes down their flags.

[Johnny Carwash]

I still can't wrap my mind around the fact that we twice elected a black guy with a foreign-sounding name who a bunch of people thought was a secret Muslim, and then followed that with Trump. I just can't make that compute.

We really, really underestimated how bad of a candidate Hillary was. I figured she was divisive in the way Obama was, but it was much worse.

[The Sybian]

I still can't wrap my mind around the fact that we twice elected a black guy with a foreign-sounding name who a bunch of people thought was a secret Muslim, and then followed that with Trump. I just can't make that compute.

We really, really underestimated how bad of a candidate Hillary was. I figured she was divisive in the way Obama was, but it was much worse.

Just taking our country back.

[Joe K]

I still can't wrap my mind around the fact that we twice elected a black guy with a foreign-sounding name who a bunch of people thought was a secret Muslim, and then followed that with Trump. I just can't make that compute.

We really, really underestimated how bad of a candidate Hillary was. I figured she was divisive in the way Obama was, but it was much worse.

Obama is a far, far better electoral politician than Hillary. I was a big Obama backer during the 2008 primaries and I recall being delighted with how unprepared Clinton was once she failed to knock Obama out early. She had every conceivable structural advantage in 2008 -- and faced the most baggage-ridden candidate ever in 2016 -- and still lost both times.

[Johnny Carwash]

On the prognostication/statistics stuff--everyone has been shitting on Nate Silver, but in the end he was the least-bad of the prominent people doing what he does. He was being mocked for "only" having Clinton with a 60-70% chance in the closing days when others had her much higher (including this smug fucker who had her at >99%).

I think after Silver's success in '08/'12, people were settling into the idea that we had finally "solved" predicting human behavior and were past the point where a Dewey-defeats-Truman scenario would ever happen again. I don't think anyone old enough to remember this election will ever have that feeling of comfort again.

As mentioned here before, I have literal OCD, so I'm naturally paranoid to a far greater degree about these things than an average person, but factoring that out I was reasonably confident Clinton would win based on what I was seeing from statistical modeling and hearing from various "insiders." I didn't answer the "Scared" poll from yesterday for fear of jinxing it, but I would have maybe gone with a 3 or 4. The lesson I've learned is to never be certain based solely on the apparent certainty of others.

Oh, and 99% of people who predicted a Trump victory and are now gloating about it are full of shit. They're broken clocks. They got lucky. This happened for reasons that will be dissected by academics for a long time, but it doesn't make Joe Q. Buttfuck going with his gut a valid substitute.

[degenerasian]

Trump win between 87 and 99 percent certain, says SUNY-Stony Brook professor.

so in the end, Silver was the best of the pollsters but this guy wins again.

[bapo!]

Do you think it's possible that the media inadvertently drove down the vote? There was a lot of cheerleading about early voting the past couple of weeks. Record numbers, etc. Looked like turn-out was going to be high. But then fewer people voted than in 2012.

Seems possible that some people would choose to stay home on Tuesday, rather than vote for a candidate they didn't care for, when enough people in their party were already doing the work. Maybe the polls were accurate, but more disaffected Republican voters turned out than disaffected Dem voters. Plausible? I'm grasping at anything now.

[degenerasian]

Do you think it's possible that the media inadvertently drove down the vote? There was a lot of cheerleading about early voting the past couple of weeks. Record numbers, etc. Looked like turn-out was going to be high. But then fewer people voted than in 2012.

Seems possible that some people would choose to stay home on Tuesday, rather than vote for a candidate they didn't care for, when enough people in their party were already doing the work. Maybe the polls were accurate, but more disaffected Republican voters turned out than disaffected Dem voters. Plausible? I'm grasping at anything now.

i would say there were many factors but i think most important is that the rustbelt states got pissed. When did 'non-college educated voters' become a thing? Just the fact that term even exists pisses off... non-college educated voters! The Republicans supporters had a reason to vote, the Democratic supporters did not. It was already in the bag, let's stay home.

[EnochRoot]

Epic rant from Stan Van Gundy:

“I didn’t vote for (George W.) Bush, but he was a good, honorable man with whom I had political differences, so I didn’t vote for him. But for our country to be where we are now, who took a guy who -- I don’t care what anyone says, I’m sure they have other reasons and maybe good reasons for voting for Donald Trump -- but I don’t think anybody can deny this guy is openly and brazenly racist and misogynistic and ethnic-centric, and say, ‘That’s OK with us, we’re going to vote for him anyway.'
“We have just thrown a good part of our population under the bus, and I have problems with thinking that this is where we are as a country. It’s tough on (the team), we noticed it coming in. Everybody was a little quiet, and I thought, ‘Well, maybe the game the other night.’ And so we talked about that, but then Aron Baynes said, ‘I don’t think that’s why everybody’s quiet. It’s last night.’

“It’s just, we have said -- and my daughters, the three of them -- our society has said, ‘No, we think you should be second-class citizens. We want you to be second-class citizens. And we embrace a guy who is openly misogynistic as our leader.' I don’t know how we get past that.

“Martin Luther King said, 'The arc of the moral universe is long, but bends toward justice.' I would have believed in that for a long time, but not today. … What we have done to minorities … in this election is despicable. I’m having a hard time dealing with it. This isn’t your normal candidate. I don’t know even know if I have political differences with him. I don’t even know what are his politics. I don’t know, other than to build a wall and 'I hate people of color, and women are to be treated as sex objects and as servants to men.' I don’t know how you get past that. I don’t know how you walk into the booth and vote for that.

“I understand problems with the economy. I understand all the problems with Hillary Clinton, I do. But certain things in our country should disqualify you. And the fact that millions and millions of Americans don’t think that racism and sexism disqualifies you to be our leader, in our country ... . We presume to tell other countries about human-rights abuses and everything else. We better never do that again, when our leaders talk to China or anybody else about human-rights abuses.

“We just elected an openly, brazen misogynist leader and we should keep our mouths shut and realize that we need to be learning maybe from the rest of the world, because we don’t got anything to teach anybody.

“It’s embarrassing. I have been ashamed of a lot of things that have happened in this country, but I can’t say I’ve ever been ashamed of our country until today. Until today. We all have to find our way to move forward, but that was -- and I’m not even trying to make a political statement. To me, that’s beyond politics.

“You don’t get to come out and talk about people like that, and then lead our country and have millions of Americans embrace you. I’m having a hard time being with people. I’m going to walk into this arena tonight and realize that -- especially in this state -- most of these people voted for the guy. Like, (expletive), I don’t have any respect for that. I don’t.

“And then you read how he was embraced by conservative Christians. Evangelical Christians. I’m not a religious guy, but what the hell Bible are they reading? I’m dead serious. What Bible are you reading? And you’re supposed to be — it’s different. There are a lot of different groups we can be upset at. But you’re Christians. You’re supposed to be — at least you pride yourself on being the moral compass of our society. And you said, ‘Yeah, the guy can talk about women like that. I’m fine with that.’ He can disparage every ethnic group, and I’m fine with that.

“Look, I don’t get it. And I’m having a hard time taking it. I’m just glad that the people I’m with here — and I’ll include you guys, too — that I like. Because I’m going to have a hard time. I will say, one point of pride, I live in Oakland County, Michigan, and I was surprised, but Oakland County voted for Clinton. At least I can look around say, ‘We weren’t the ones putting that guy in office.'

“It’s incredible. I don’t know how you go about it, if you’re a person of color today or a Latino. Because white society just said to you, again -- not like we haven’t forever -- but again, and emphatically, that I don’t think you deserve equality. We don’t think you deserve respect. And the same with women. That’s what we say today, as a country. We should be ashamed for what we stand for as the United States today.

“That’s it for me. I don’t have anything to say about the game tonight."

It's maddening.

[vandwagon]

Maddening to me is seeing somewhere that he's considering Sara Palin for Interior Secretary. Ready for drill baby drill in all of the National Parks?

[sancarlos]

I'll acknowledge that we didn't see many Hillary commercials in California, so maybe I'm wrong here. But, I recall just about all the other Republican hopefuls knocking Trump during primary season for his lack of policy knowledge and his lack of expertise and his general ignorance. Would've liked to have seen more ads using footage of Republicans knocking Trump. Seems like there were plenty of those incidents they could've used.

But, as Brian noted, Hillary REALLY needed to address the concerns of the uneducated midwest former-factory workers. She let Trump make all sorts of stupid unrealistic claims and they stuck in the minds of those voters. If the Dems had a good plan to address the concerns of those folks, they didn't get it across.

ETA: I had a cab driver today who is a former Peoria Caterpillar factory worker. He bent my ear for a half hour telling me how he thinks Trump is going to help the little guy. (No real substance - just rah rah rah.)

[Joe K]

I'll acknowledge that we didn't see many Hillary commercials in California, so maybe I'm wrong here. But, I recall just about all the other Republican hopefuls knocking Trump during primary season for his lack of policy knowledge and his lack of expertise and his general ignorance. Would've liked to have seen more ads using footage of Republicans knocking Trump. Seems like there were plenty of those incidents they could've used.

But, as Brian noted, Hillary REALLY needed to address the concerns of the uneducated midwest former-factory workers. She let Trump make all sorts of stupid unrealistic claims and they stuck in the minds of those voters. If the Dems had a good plan to address the concerns of those folks, they didn't get it across.

ETA: I had a cab driver today who is a former Peoria Caterpillar factory worker. He bent my ear for a half hour telling me how he thinks Trump is going to help the little guy. (No real substance - just rah rah rah.)

I agree with the second part of your post, but not really the first. Clinton did run ads like that, using sound bites from other Republicans, as part of her woefully unsuccessful (and, frankly, counterproductive) effort to win over GOP voters. The estimates I saw were that only 7% of registered Republicans ultimately voted for Clinton, which was less than the 9% of Democrats who voted for Trump. The biggest strategic error she made was the one you noted in failing to address the concerns of the midwest working class.

[degenerasian]

The day after, Megyn Kelly isn't wearing much

[Johnnie]

Does Obama pardon Hillary so Trump doesn't go after her?

Over/under when the first journalist is jailed?

[The Sybian]

But, as Brian noted, Hillary REALLY needed to address the concerns of the uneducated midwest former-factory workers. She let Trump make all sorts of stupid unrealistic claims and they stuck in the minds of those voters. If the Dems had a good plan to address the concerns of those folks, they didn't get it across.

ETA: I had a cab driver today who is a former Peoria Caterpillar factory worker. He bent my ear for a half hour telling me how he thinks Trump is going to help the little guy. (No real substance - just rah rah rah.)

Unfortunately, the uneducated former-factory workers aren't swayed by wonky intellectual arguments. They want to hear "I'll bring back your job from China!" "I'll make America win again!" Their lives and towns are crumbling, and they are desperate for something new to save them. Hillary represents the old, saying stuff they don't understand, coming from a person they don't trust. They view Trump as some superhuman business man who can do no wrong, and they want to believe he can use his superhuman business acumen to bring jobs back to their town and bring back the good old days. When he makes his empty slogans, they don't give any thought to how he is going to make America win, they just know he is. Somehow, an incomprehensible string of superlatives is impressive.

They want to take back their country, go back to the days when factory jobs existed and you could earn a middle class salary and support a family on one paycheck. Republicans have these people convinced that the Democrats are to blame for this. The Republican answer is abolishing the minimum wage, cutting safety nets that these people need as much as anybody, and reducing the taxes on Billionaires, so they can create more jobs. Reagan pushed Trickledown economics, and Reagan was a God among men, so it must be good! Democrats want to take their money and give it to lazy black people.

[Joe K]

But, as Brian noted, Hillary REALLY needed to address the concerns of the uneducated midwest former-factory workers. She let Trump make all sorts of stupid unrealistic claims and they stuck in the minds of those voters. If the Dems had a good plan to address the concerns of those folks, they didn't get it across.

ETA: I had a cab driver today who is a former Peoria Caterpillar factory worker. He bent my ear for a half hour telling me how he thinks Trump is going to help the little guy. (No real substance - just rah rah rah.)

Unfortunately, the uneducated former-factory workers aren't swayed by wonky intellectual arguments. They want to hear "I'll bring back your job from China!" "I'll make America win again!" Their lives and towns are crumbling, and they are desperate for something new to save them. Hillary represents the old, saying stuff they don't understand, coming from a person they don't trust. They view Trump as some superhuman business man who can do no wrong, and they want to believe he can use his superhuman business acumen to bring jobs back to their town and bring back the good old days. When he makes his empty slogans, they don't give any thought to how he is going to make America win, they just know he is. Somehow, an incomprehensible string of superlatives is impressive.

They want to take back their country, go back to the days when factory jobs existed and you could earn a middle class salary and support a family on one paycheck. Republicans have these people convinced that the Democrats are to blame for this. The Republican answer is abolishing the minimum wage, cutting safety nets that these people need as much as anybody, and reducing the taxes on Billionaires, so they can create more jobs. Reagan pushed Trickledown economics, and Reagan was a God among men, so it must be good! Democrats want to take their money and give it to lazy black people.

While there's some truth to this, the notion that these voters are unpersuadable is pretty significantly undercut by the fact that Obama swept the four Great Lakes states Clinton lost (PA, OH, MI, WI) in both of his elections. Maybe the economic climate has worsened in these states over the past 4 years, but I'm not sure that's the case. I think the big difference is that Obama was able to very deftly point out just how little the GOP was actually offering for these voters. Admittedly Trump was an unconventional opponent who presented some different challenges, but I still think that Clinton could -- and should -- have been able to keep these voters. But instead of acknowledging their frustrations and explaining why she was better equipped to address them than Trump, she spent way too much time repeating her attacks on Trump's character and pushing baseless Putin conspiracies.

[Pruitt]

That van Gundy rant is fantastic.

Question - do you think these protests that started tonight will get worse?

[Jerloma]

Great rant from a Facebook friend...

I will regret this post. I know that already. But I need to say it. For just a split second, I need to stow my habitual optimism, shelve my civility, cast aside my humanism, breathe some hot magma, offend my fellow countrymen, and purge this malignancy from my system.

I think the thing that I am struggling with the most today is trying to figure out how I can possibly respect my fellow countrymen when they are an anathema and a moral outrage to me. I unequivocally revere democracy and the electoral process, and will stand by the will of the people. But I have never been more deeply and profoundly ashamed of my country then I am today. And I can say, without reservation:

Fuck you, America.

Fuck you, white people. Fuck you, men. Fuck you, uneducated simpletons. Fuck you, old people and your retrograde ways. Fuck you, evangelical Christians, you goddamn hypocritical pieces of shit.

I said all throughout the campaign that Donald Trump didn't scare me — his supporters did. Well, that's never been more true than today. If you voted for Donald Trump, let me make this very clear: you voted in support of racism and xenophobia. You voted in support of sexism, misogyny and sexual assault. You voted in support of homophobia and bigotry. You voted in support of religious intolerance. Of bullying. Of discrimination and humiliation of the disabled. You voted in support of a man endorsed by the KKK. You voted in support of a thrice-married adulterer. You voted in support of a pathological liar. You voted in support of a man who thinks climate change is a hoax. You voted in support of a strongman who employs historically fascist language, incites violence, claims he alone can solve your problems, pledges to utterly destroy his enemies, and loathes the First Amendment. You voted in support of a narcissist who is literally going to become the most powerful man on earth.
You did this. You did all of this with your eyes wide open. You are without excuse or defense.

And for those of you who voted third party, fuck you too. We warned you. We warned you that this election was far too important for you to plant a flag in the ground, or protest vote, but you didn’t listen, and now you and your fellow citizens will suffer because of it. How’s that moral high ground feel now?

No, I don’t think that a Trump presidency means certain nuclear war or the unraveling of the Republic, as some have claimed. But we needn’t employ such hyperbole to recognize just how bad this election is for America. And the world. Do you feel that creeping sense of dread that I do? That sense that many of our fellow countrymen and woman are less safe today, less valued, less American?

I don't even recognize my country anymore. I thought my country was so much better than this. Clearly, I was wrong. Alexander Hamilton may have been right all along — the people are too foolish and too ignorant to rule themselves. If this is what America is — if this election is an accurate reflection of what America values — than it deserves to burn. It deserves everything it's about to get.

P.T. Barnum was way off — there are, in fact, 59,589,694 suckers born every minute. Sometime soon, in a year or two, old white evangelicals in flyover states (oh, I’m sorry, do you find that condescending, because I don’t give a shit) are going to realize that President Trump is a con man who is never going to do a damn thing for them.

Allow me a couple predictions:

• You will soon come to hate President Trump because he cannot possibly give you all of the outlandish and ludicrous things he’s promised. And you will hate yourself for being so damn gullible.
• President Trump will humiliate and embarrass the flag, at home and abroad.
• President Trump’s term will be plagued by moral and ethical scandals.
• President Trump will be a one-term president, and history will regard his presidency as one of the worst ever undertaken.

No, this is not the response I would have had if Marco Rubio had won. Or John Kasich. Or even Ted Cruz. Hell, I didn’t even have this reaction with George W. Bush, and he was warmongering, homophobic, religious bludgeoner who wore his willful ignorance as a badge of honor. The reason for my wrath is because you elected a candidate like no other in the history of this great country. A candidate with zero political experience. A candidate with zero military experience. A candidate who thinks he is the smartest guy in the room. A candidate who lacks common, human decency. And you are patting yourselves on the back for your ingenuity.

Republicans, you now have all the power. You have 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. You have both houses of Congress. You have the Supreme Court. And from here on out, you will have all the blame. When things begin falling apart—and they will fall apart—you will have no one to point fingers at but yourselves. When the economy tanks and the next war begins, you will have no one to blame but yourselves. When millions with pre-existing conditions return to a world without healthcare, you will have no one to blame but yourselves. When American power and prestige abroad is castrated, you will have no one to blame but yourselves. When you finally recognize that, unfortunately, the Rust Belt is not coming back and this is what globalization and the future looks like, you will have no one to blame but yourselves. When it finally hits you that you have consciously and premeditatedly sold your souls to the devil, you will have no one to blame but yourselves.

For a long time, I predicted Donald Trump would destroy the Republican Party. Don't think for a single minute that Trump’s victory changes that. On the contrary, it only means that its demise will come a bit later, and be bigger, more explosive, and hurt a hell of a lot more.

President-Elect Trump, I deeply respect the office you now occupy. Which is why I pledge to resist you with all my being. Not because I am an agent of inflexible partisanship, but because I am a decent human being who will defend my loved ones whom you've committed to oppress — women and gays and immigrants and all of the world’s helpless people that men like you have always crushed beneath your feet as you seek to rise.
The Janus-like nature of the country today is that, while Trump has given permission for the worst segments of society to sneak out of the shadows and into the warm light of day, we now have them out in the open and know who they are. They can no longer pretend racism and sexism are things of the past. America can now reckon with the sins it has, up till now, pretended were ancient history.

Love does not, as Clinton’s campaign had it, automatically or magically trump hate. We have to want it. We have to fight for it. Only our blood, sweat and tears win these things.

And so, today we rail and mourn, but tomorrow the fight starts anew.

[GoodKarma]

I have a two page document written in a similar tone sitting on my computer right now...debating about the value of posting.

I hope the protests die down...it will not change anything and only make things worse. Accept it and move on.

[Joe K]

That van Gundy rant is fantastic.

It really is. I found the bolded portions of the excerpts below particularly remarkable, as they raise two really important truths that you rarely hear from politicians or commentators: (1) that we can't just assume that things will necessarily get better over time because sometimes they don't; and (2) the U.S. is hardly on strong ground to serve as an arbiter of human rights to the world as a whole.

“Martin Luther King said, 'The arc of the moral universe is long, but bends toward justice.' I would have believed in that for a long time, but not today. … What we have done to minorities … in this election is despicable. I’m having a hard time dealing with it. This isn’t your normal candidate. I don’t know even know if I have political differences with him. I don’t even know what are his politics. I don’t know, other than to build a wall and 'I hate people of color, and women are to be treated as sex objects and as servants to men.' I don’t know how you get past that. I don’t know how you walk into the booth and vote for that.

“I understand problems with the economy. I understand all the problems with Hillary Clinton, I do. But certain things in our country should disqualify you. And the fact that millions and millions of Americans don’t think that racism and sexism disqualifies you to be our leader, in our country ... . We presume to tell other countries about human-rights abuses and everything else. We better never do that again, when our leaders talk to China or anybody else about human-rights abuses.

“We just elected an openly, brazen misogynist leader and we should keep our mouths shut and realize that we need to be learning maybe from the rest of the world, because we don’t got anything to teach anybody.

[The Sybian]

I have a two page document written in a similar tone sitting on my computer right now...debating about the value of posting.

I hope the protests die down...it will not change anything and only make things worse. Accept it and move on.

Eh, at minimum post it here. I am getting residual catharsis reading people's rants.

Side note, almost none of the pro-Trump people in my FB feed have posted. Very strange, or FB filters are smarter than I thought. Extremely heartfelt and poetic outpourings of sadness and shame in our country for electing this manchild, but almost nothing from my Trumpkins.

[The Sybian]

But, as Brian noted, Hillary REALLY needed to address the concerns of the uneducated midwest former-factory workers. She let Trump make all sorts of stupid unrealistic claims and they stuck in the minds of those voters. If the Dems had a good plan to address the concerns of those folks, they didn't get it across.

ETA: I had a cab driver today who is a former Peoria Caterpillar factory worker. He bent my ear for a half hour telling me how he thinks Trump is going to help the little guy. (No real substance - just rah rah rah.)

Unfortunately, the uneducated former-factory workers aren't swayed by wonky intellectual arguments. They want to hear "I'll bring back your job from China!" "I'll make America win again!" Their lives and towns are crumbling, and they are desperate for something new to save them. Hillary represents the old, saying stuff they don't understand, coming from a person they don't trust. They view Trump as some superhuman business man who can do no wrong, and they want to believe he can use his superhuman business acumen to bring jobs back to their town and bring back the good old days. When he makes his empty slogans, they don't give any thought to how he is going to make America win, they just know he is. Somehow, an incomprehensible string of superlatives is impressive.

They want to take back their country, go back to the days when factory jobs existed and you could earn a middle class salary and support a family on one paycheck. Republicans have these people convinced that the Democrats are to blame for this. The Republican answer is abolishing the minimum wage, cutting safety nets that these people need as much as anybody, and reducing the taxes on Billionaires, so they can create more jobs. Reagan pushed Trickledown economics, and Reagan was a God among men, so it must be good! Democrats want to take their money and give it to lazy black people.

While there's some truth to this, the notion that these voters are unpersuadable is pretty significantly undercut by the fact that Obama swept the four Great Lakes states Clinton lost (PA, OH, MI, WI) in both of his elections. Maybe the economic climate has worsened in these states over the past 4 years, but I'm not sure that's the case. I think the big difference is that Obama was able to very deftly point out just how little the GOP was actually offering for these voters. Admittedly Trump was an unconventional opponent who presented some different challenges, but I still think that Clinton could -- and should -- have been able to keep these voters. But instead of acknowledging their frustrations and explaining why she was better equipped to address them than Trump, she spent way too much time repeating her attacks on Trump's character and pushing baseless Putin conspiracies.

Obama was able to bring in a new energy and a message of Hope and Change. He was able to come across as a compassionate person who cared and wanted to help, while Mitt came across as a Country Club robot who made millions by shipping jobs overseas and instituting massive layoffs. Hillary came across as cold, and believing she was entitled to the Presidency. I didn't mean that these votes couldn't be won by a Democrat, they just can't be won by an empty suit talking about policy, they need to feel a message of hope and feel that the candidate cares about them and their problems, and will help them.

[mister d]

"Accept it and move on" works to the audience of white dudes. If you've been around anyone else today, that option isn't available.

[Johnnie]

Side note, almost none of the pro-Trump people in my FB feed have posted. Very strange, or FB filters are smarter than I thought. Extremely heartfelt and poetic outpourings of sadness and shame in our country for electing this manchild, but almost nothing from my Trumpkins.

Not mine.

There was actually a military friend of mine who is anti Obama/anti liberal that would post the occasional dank GOP meme reminding you of that. Today he sanctimoniously posts:

To my military family,
Lock that shit up! The majority of Americans have voted and your next CIC is President- Elect Donald Trump. Regardless of your feelings; you took an oath to support and defend. Don't forget that. Stop putting your career at risk by posting dumb shit about your next President. Carry on.

It has 100 likes with multiple comments praising him.

So, because of this, I'm going to systematically delete every post and comment I've made going back to 2007 and go dark permanently on Facebook. No more posting. I'll have messenger to stay in touch, but that's it. I cannot bear witness to the bullshit any longer. And I cannot trust that my military brethren won't look into something I've said previously to try to get me in trouble.

I'll flip the fuck out on someone so irrationally disconnected from reality that puts hypocrisy first. And I'll get myself in trouble. So I have to step away.

RIP, Harambe

[Joe K]

"Accept it and move on" works to the audience of white dudes. If you've been around anyone else today, that option isn't available.

I'd add that grassroots organizing and protest movements will likely be very important over the next 2 years, with the GOP controlling every branch of government. A tremendous amount of harm could be done to the poor, women's rights, due process rights and, of course, immigrants. Rather than "accept it and move on," progressives need to show how Trump's policies will hurt so many if there's to be any hope of protecting these more vulnerable groups.