Why I Hate Prosecutors, Part 47

howard · Post by **howard** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:47 am

State Attorney Angela Corey fires information technology director who raised concerns in Trayvon Martin case

Background: State Attorney's IT director will testify about Trayvon Martin's cellphone data

Fuck justice. Fuck the process. I lost, and this whistleblower who caught my team cheating will pay with his fucking job.

degenerasian · Post by **degenerasian** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:54 am

Really interesting comments by Alan Dershowitz

Pruitt · Post by **Pruitt** » Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:00 pm

howard wrote:State Attorney Angela Corey fires information technology director who raised concerns in Trayvon Martin case

Fuck justice. Fuck the process. I lost, and this whistleblower who caught my team cheating will pay with his fucking job.

Methinks the IT Director will be filing a quite substantial lawsuit.

I read the Dershowitz article, and while I normally consider him ti be beneath reproach, he seems completely right about the actions of the State's Attorneys in this case.

But that law - the one that says that even when someone has a means and an opportunity of escape, that killing an assailant is still "self defense," I mean, it's not the sort of law that should be on the books in a civilized country. If that is the aw, than no, Zimmerman is not technically guilty. And that fact alone should cause people to demand that the law be taken off the books.

howard · Post by **howard** » Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:13 pm

Finally, the media gets it right:

Zimmerman Found Not Guilty, Technically, But C’mon

Scottie · Post by **Scottie** » Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:57 pm

No discussion on this? Too sensitive? Okay. Here's my two cents since I watched most of the trial. Hey, I had to have some background noise on while packing up the damn yurt to move. Although I don't have the first 46 parts of "Why I Hate Prosecutors" at my fingertips.

- If that is all that the prosecution had to offer as evidence, there never should have been charges or a trial. Weakest case I've ever seen. This doesn't go to trial if the incident had occurred outside of the race-baiting culture that is America today. And I completely agree with Alan Dershowitz (ugh, yes, I actually typed that, gak), the Zimmerman prosecutors should absolutely and immediately be disbarred. Even with Judge Debra S. Nelson doing all she could to help the prosecution, they still kept stepping in it and they never stopped trying to move the goalposts.

- State Attorney Angela Corey should be first in line to be disbarred. As Dershowitz nailed it.

- Bernie de la Rionda screaming at the jury, hammering on tables, ranting and raving, effectively belittling the jurors, was one of the more disgraceful things I've seen in a courtroom except for . . .

- Richard Mantei who, aside from being pure sleaze, per Corey tried desperately and underhandedly to insert 3rd-degree (child abuse) felony murder charges at the midnight hour. I don't know all the rules in Florida but that alone should cost him his career in that state. Utterly vile act.

- John Guy's constant use of subjunctive and conditional statements, none of which had any basis in fact. "Could have" "Might have" "Maybe" "Perhaps" "Possibly" "There's a chance that" "Consider that the accused may have been thinking something like. . ." and so on. All bullshit. All based on emotion and lacking any substance whatsoever. That's from a prosecutor? Really? In closing argument? Instead of an actual outline of what really happened that resulted in murder charges being laid? Pathetic. He might as well have stood there and admitted "Okay, I got nothing."

- The two worst prosecution witnesses I have ever seen in any single trial. Dr Shiping Bao, Seminole County Associate Medical Examiner, was unspeakably bad as a witness and had clearly done a less than stellar autopsy procedure about which he was remarkably ill-prepared to testify. Yet, still worse, there was Rachel Jeantel. Has there ever been a worse witness in judicial history than that woman? In the wake of the debacle that was her testimony, White liberal media types started falling on their swords all over the place with articles like "Why Rachel Is Not Exactly Staggeringly Stupid" and "Jeantel Is Not A Racist Moron But Simply Misunderstood By White People". Uh-huh; thing is, the jury was pretty much just White people (arguably this case was initially lost during jury selection; it was lost in a variety of ways, mind you). America has such a problem with the obvious being stated. Jeantel is, at best (if at all), marginally above the IQ-level of 70 that defines mental retardation. She was, if anything, a huge victory for the defense, given that she was every bit a living example of the moron-thug-ghetto mentality that the prosecution was desperate to demonstrate Martin was NOT part of. Putting her on the stand was an unmitigated disaster.

- Prosecution's opening statement: Martin was not ever on top of Zimmerman. Yet, near the close of the trial, here's a prosecution attorney on top of and straddling a prone dummy, choking and punching it. Nice work, guys. Hey, odds are the jury won't remember your opening statement, right?

- Perhaps it is standard procedure but Mark O'Mara's argument after the prosecution closed their case (on a limp note at best) that the case should be thrown out because the state proved nothing at all, was spot on. It wasn't getting thrown out at that point, of course, but it should have been.

- The defense's witnesses were excellent. One in particular, Dennis Root (the use-of-force expert) was highly compelling.

- Based on the evidence that was presented, the jury made 100% the correct legal decision. And I stress "based on the evidence that was presented" and add "and how it was presented".

- Zimmerman and his defense lawyers (who, unlike the prosecution, did an excellent job) could not have dreamed up state attorneys or state witness that incompetent. Really. If you ever find yourself on trial for murder, you'll never have it easier than with that gang of clowns trying to convict you.

- If anyone out there in Dumbassland wants to make this about race and run around rioting and trashing the local Wal-Mart, they would do well to remember that their beef is in reality with the State of Florida's excuse for prosecution attorneys.

- Most of the coverage I watched was on HLN. The bias against the defense by the meat-puppets on that network was laughably vulgar. The worst moment, the lowest they sunk, was their "dramatization of what may have happened between Zimmerman and Martin". Unfuckingreal. Beyond irresponsible, completely contrived, utterly prejudiced and flat-out stupid. But, hey, that's the home field of Nancy Grace; one should expect no less. Instead of cut-away-to-commercial music, they repeatedly played a heavily edited "911 call" that was entirely constructed to damn Zimmerman.

- A sitting US President has no bloody business saying a possible crime victim, in a case where one segment of the American population contains loud voices hell-bent determined to make it entirely about race, would "look like his son".

- If Zimmerman still harbors idea of working in law enforcement, he might want to forget about it.

- If Bob Dylan wrote a protest song about this whole mess, along the lines of "The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll", could we call that a case of Zimmerman -v- Zimmerman?

howard · Post by **howard** » Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:25 pm

I tried to avoid this shit. Failed. The final day, I listened to both prosecution and defense closings. I was shocked at how little evidence the prosecution summed. Just nothing there.

So few people know the actual facts as presented at trial. So many incorrect facts that millions internalized that were demonstrated to be false at trial, and folks locked into their opinions.

Dude may well be morally, ethically guilty of murder. I don't fucking know. I know there was zero grounds in this trial to convict him of shit. The percentage of people who are able to step outside their old, tired racial narrative emotions to be able to separate what happened, what we don't know, and what constitutes a fair criminal proceeding approaches about 10%.

Post by **brian** » Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:28 pm

The whole sorry epic, from the original shooting through the trial through the aftermath is evidence of why Florida is basically the worst place in America.

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:02 pm

It's a racial in thing in that if he were white, he'd still be alive. A lot of people are suggesting that if Trayvon were white, Zimmerman would have been convicted. It's a nonsense scenario because if he were white, Zimmerman would have just drove right by him without batting an eyelash, let alone called the cops and started stalking him against the cops orders.

Scottie · Post by **Scottie** » Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:16 pm

Jerloma wrote:It's a racial in thing in that if he were white, he'd still be alive. A lot of people are suggesting that if Trayvon were white, Zimmerman would have been convicted. It's a nonsense scenario because if he were white, Zimmerman would have just drove right by him without batting an eyelash, let alone called the cops and started stalking him against the cops orders.

You have absolutely no way whatsoever of knowing that. And you never will unless Zimmerman bizarrely comes out and says "I only shot him because he was Black". And that ain't gonna happen.

And "if" and "would have" are on the same train to Irrelevantville.

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:40 pm

Okay, well what group of people do you think Z was talking about when he told the police, "These assholes...they always get away!"

Teenagers?

People wearing hoodies?

Does he feel the urge to follow Belichick if sees him walking down the street?

You're right...I don't know that but come on.

Scottie · Post by **Scottie** » Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:50 pm

Doesn't matter. Teenagers? People wearing hoodies? Trespassers? Jehovah's Witnesses? Doesn't matter. And unless "assholes" is a widely-known slang euphemism for "Black people", which it is not, it is completely irrelevant.

Equally ridiculous is the "if Zimmerman was Black and Martin was White, you'd convict him" argument; also completely without substance and also completely irrelevant.

The state cannot meet its burden of proof with "if" or "would have". That is a huge part of why they failed; the prosecution's rebuttal was laced with little else but subjunctive fantasies. That was by no means a stupid jury; they identified that the prosecution had nothing and were desperate. "Yeah, but, c'mon" isn't exactly a substantial prosecutorial stance, is it?

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:21 pm

Equally ridiculous is the "if Zimmerman was Black and Martin was White, you'd convict him" argument; also completely without substance and also completely irrelevant.

Yeah I don't think it's fair to speculate on that either but I'm confident speculating that we'd never have heard the name Trayvon Martin if he was white.

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:54 pm

Jerloma wrote:
Equally ridiculous is the "if Zimmerman was Black and Martin was White, you'd convict him" argument; also completely without substance and also completely irrelevant.
Yeah I don't think it's fair to speculate on that either but I'm confident speculating that we'd never have heard the name Trayvon Martin if he was white.

I'm confident that if he was white, he wouldn't have been named Trayvon.

Post by **brian** » Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:03 pm

The Sybian wrote:
Jerloma wrote:
Equally ridiculous is the "if Zimmerman was Black and Martin was White, you'd convict him" argument; also completely without substance and also completely irrelevant.
Yeah I don't think it's fair to speculate on that either but I'm confident speculating that we'd never have heard the name Trayvon Martin if he was white.

I'm confident that if he was white, he wouldn't have been named Trayvon.

I waited too long to jump on that softball.

Scottie · Post by **Scottie** » Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:39 pm

Jerloma wrote:
Equally ridiculous is the "if Zimmerman was Black and Martin was White, you'd convict him" argument; also completely without substance and also completely irrelevant.
Yeah I don't think it's fair to speculate on that either but I'm confident speculating that we'd never have heard the name Trayvon Martin if he was white.

That is the exact same argument that, earlier in your sentence, you described as unfair.

The State of Florida's judicial system is quite a piece of work, eh? Wasn't it just last year that the court allowed a lunatic lawyer, Jose Baez, to completely (and publically) demonize an innocent man en route to getting his client, the evidence against whom was infinitely more compelling than that against Zimmerman, off the hook? That being Casey Anthony, of course; her father being the target of all manner of hideous accusations.

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:08 pm

Scottie, the kid not being followed and eventually killed if he was white is not even remotely the same argument as the defendant being convicted if the kid was white. Pay attention.

howard · Post by **howard** » Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:23 pm

Jerloma wrote:It's a racial in thing in that if he were white, he'd still be alive.

Bullshit.

This is where I check out. Because people are convinced if I do not share this delusional belief, that I am a terrible person. Which cracks me the fuck up.

ETA: The delusional belief that the statement, "if he were white, he'd be alive" is a fact; it is not a fact, it is an opinion. No more, no less.

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:40 pm

No shit, Howard. For now on, lets preface everything we think by announcing that its an opinion as to not confuse anyone.

howard · Post by **howard** » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:01 pm

A lot of people have tremendous difficulty with distinguishing between fact and opinion. Specifically, lots of people take this as an article of fact, or faith, that trayvon would be alive were he white.

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:11 pm

It's speculation based upon the fact that he told the police that "these assholes always get away." From what he knew of Trayvon at the time, "these assholes" could mean...

A. Teenagers
B. Pedestrians
C. Hoodie wearers
D. Black people

In my opinion...it's D. It stands up to reason greater than the other three.

Post by **brian** » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:35 pm

If I had a son he'd look like Jerloma. That's a fact.

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:59 am

Scottie wrote:No discussion on this?

Trust me, I wanted to, but between moving and getting settled and seeing the internet and its infinite wisdom respond, I just didn't have the patience to watch anything (not that I could on AFN) or read anything. Plus, I hate the media. This entire episode has been bastardized from the beginning and there was no way for me to make heads or tails of it.

But here's my 2 cents after the fact...

This entire trial was a proxy racial debate between everyone not intimiately involved in the case. On social media, regular media, and points everywhere else, it has been one big dick swinging contest of who can prove their side is the more Persecuted Racial Demographic. I mean, the dude was labeled a 'White-Hispanic', FFS! How self loathing do you have to be to create a race not even listed on a census form to interject yourself into something like this? (I made the comment on FB last night and my Hispanic friends chuckled along because it's such a silly notion.)

And then you have the extreme pro gunner crowd side taking the self defense hardline to such a degree that they labeled a dead black kid a thug and hoodlum and all other bullshit. "Zimmerman was standing his ground!" and yadda yadda yadda. As if character defamation of a dead 17 year old you will never meet and only know about from TV and print is a way to get your point across with integrity. It felt an awful lot like the white people I knew in Arizona and Louisiana try to justify their racism and making it seem like the kid was obviously up to no good because hey "He looks suspicious and attacked the dude. He shouldn't question authority if he has nothing to hide."

It's all a bunch of bullshit.

This is what I think happened. Zimmerman saw this kid he thinks is a punk who's out of place in a community he's watching. Whatever the reason is (race, clothing, demeanor..etc) I don't know, but he profiled him -- as we are all profiled -- and called the cops. Cops say "Sit tight, stay in your car." Except, he doesn't. I feel (I have no proof of this) since he's carrying a weapon and, from looking at his behavior AFTER not following instructions, he is a piss-poor dogshit excuse of a gun owner, gets out of his vehicle and confronts the kid. Does he confront him if he's unarmed? We won't ever know, but my assumption is "no." As a 17 year old kid (we were all 17 at one time), he takes offense to being bothered by some random dude because he's breaking no laws and doesn't want to deal with this situation. And I mean who does? The situation elevates. Words turn to blows. A scuffle ensues. Now the situation has gone from Zimmerman, who was possibly an agressor (stress: possibly) to now possibly being on the defense, panics because he's getting his ass kicked all of a sudden by a juvenile and shoots the kid because he was, according to Florida, defending himself. In Florida this situation is legal on paper. In a general sense, Chris Rock would say "Zimmerman was keeping it real. Real dumb" and Dave Chapplle would have a skit about "When keeping it real goes wrong." That's what happened.

When I was taking my class for my conceal carry permit I was taught that having a firearm on you and making an act of aggression (a gray area that includes yelling, threats, and whatever else) is at least a misdemeanor. Now, the subjectivity of the situation determines whether it is worth the cops' time if the cops are in fact called. But knowing the situation could possibly arise, it means you better be on alert of yourself when you're carrying -- hence my calling Zimmerman what I did.

What I also learned was you use your gun as an absolute last response. If I can run, I run. If I can get away, I get away. A firearm is a deadly weapon that, when used, means you were in fear of your life. In fact, the firearms instructor stated plainly that he'd rather everyone get a taser or pepper spray. (This is in Arizona, mind you!) See both of those items are non-lethal, and thus, if you were threatened and used them, the other guy doesn't die, and at worst a he said/he said ensues. But the key -- NO ONE DIES!

So I hated everything about this. Every side came out covered in shit. And those completely ignorant and devoid of factual evidence took a side based on emotion. Pro-gunners immediately defended Zimmerman. Latent racists defended him too. Liberals immediately blamed gun culture. Being that Trayvon was black, Jesse Jackson/Al Sharpton and his ilk immediately played the race card. Then the media gets involved and screaming heads screamed. The living was casitgated. The dead was besmirched. And America showed its true colors, as it always does. Then there's all the nuances in between, but I'm getting tired writing about it. People suck.

All I know is that I will never have all the facts at my disposal which will then force me to make an opinion that could be wrong, so I stayed away. I couldn't even care to comment about it on Facebook or Twitter.

ETA

Oh, and Brian's avatar and sig line are killing me right now.

Pruitt · Post by **Pruitt** » Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:01 am

Johnnie is my new hero.

Brilliant summation.

testy boxcar · Post by **testy boxcar** » Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:36 am

i've served on a jury in a case where the prosecution was much, MUCH worse. Domestic assault. Black guy threw a chair that split his white girlfriend's face open. The defense attorney in that case even said "yes, he threw the chair... but we don't know WHY. Maybe it bounced off a wall!?!" He still got off.

howard · Post by **howard** » Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:31 am

Shit, Johnnie~

Save it for the podcast!

Oh well, we'll just talk about Crossfit.

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:34 am

Pruitt wrote:Johnnie is my new hero.

Brilliant summation.

Word. Johnnie nailed it. I really didn't follow closely, so my opinion is based on very little, and I know it. The jury, like the OJ jury, was probably correct in their decision as the laws are written. OJ prosecution fucked up bad. We all know OJ did it, but the prosecution failed to prove it, and the police-tainted evidence didn't help. Zimmerman seemed to put himself into danger, but as I understand it, that isn't part of the "Stand Your Ground" law's test. But like I said, I don't know much about this case, so feel free to disregard. The only thing I saw was the Daily Show making fun of the knock-knock joke.

Gunpowder · Post by **Gunpowder** » Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:46 am

The last thing you want to do in Florida is shoot somebody and not kill them.

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:56 am

Thanks, fellas. As I mentioned in the podcast thread, my internet connection on base is shitty and whenever I actually get to move into my place (about 2 weeks), I will still have to wait about 3 more after that to get a good conection. I guess I can set up my cell phone as a hotspot, connect to it with my laptop, and join that way though. But depending on the village I am living in, some cell phone service doesn't work. I'll be looking into it. Germany is weird.

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:04 am

Icepenis wrote:The last thing you want to do in Florida is shoot somebody and not kill them.

Or fire warning shots.

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:13 am

Look, the lawyers were obviously able to divert the jury away from the fact that Zimmerman entered the situation as not only the aggressor but the aggressor with a deadly weapon. I take it that Howard is okay with me calling this a fact since Zimmerman doesn't even dispute it. However, in my opinion, Trayvon Martin should not be dead today and the only reason he is because George Zimmerman acted out in a manner not reflective of normal actions in a civilized society. I think there many other people in here that think this as well but for some reason nobody likes disagreeing with Howard or Scottie anymore.

Now I'm going to Florida to jump in front of a speeding car and pull out a bazooka to stop it because I feared for my life.

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:52 am

Jerloma wrote:Look, the lawyers were obviously able to divert the jury away from the fact that Zimmerman entered the situation as not only the aggressor but the aggressor with a deadly weapon. I take it that Howard is okay with me calling this a fact since Zimmerman doesn't even dispute it. However, in my opinion, Trayvon Martin should not be dead today and the only reason he is because George Zimmerman acted out in a manner not reflective of normal actions in a civilized society. I think there many other people in here that think this as well but for some reason nobody likes disagreeing with Howard or Scottie anymore.

Now I'm going to Florida to jump in front of a speeding car and pull out a bazooka to stop it because I feared for my life.

I agree with what you said here, but the way the law is written, I don't think the jury was wrong to find him innocent. Being innocent under an idiotic law is far different from being morally innocent. Zimmerman created the situation. In a torts matter without Stand Your Ground, it's a poximate cause and he bears some liability.

Scottie · Post by **Scottie** » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:13 am

Jerloma wrote:Scottie, the kid not being followed and eventually killed if he was white is not even remotely the same argument as the defendant being convicted if the kid was white. Pay attention.

I am paying attention. Very much so. And what I see is you making shit up and passing it off as facts.

Again . . . "if this happened", "if that happened", "if you aunt had testicles" . . . all completely irrelevant.

degenerasian · Post by **degenerasian** » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:17 am

Well put johnnie.

To me it was simply prosecution over-reaching. It was never first degree murder. There's no way they could prove that Zimmerman plotted a murder against that exact kid.

They should have gone for at least a misdemeanor (act of aggression with a firearm) as you said which ecause there was a death turns into at most negligable manslaughter from the beginning (but then it wouldn't be a case on television and they wouldn't be famous would they?). The prosecution was urged on by the media to press THESE charges 44 days after the fact, they saw the money and the fame and it bit them in the ass. It was an impossible case.

Prove the 'why didn't you stay in the car when the police told you part why did you fire the gun even in self-defense". That's an easy win for a good prosecution team.

Gunpowder · Post by **Gunpowder** » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:51 am

Manslaughter would not have been an easy win for any prosecution team. I don't think anybody but Zimmerman to this day knows what actually happened, right?

Steve of phpBB · Post by **Steve of phpBB** » Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:05 am

The Sybian wrote:
Jerloma wrote:Look, the lawyers were obviously able to divert the jury away from the fact that Zimmerman entered the situation as not only the aggressor but the aggressor with a deadly weapon. I take it that Howard is okay with me calling this a fact since Zimmerman doesn't even dispute it. However, in my opinion, Trayvon Martin should not be dead today and the only reason he is because George Zimmerman acted out in a manner not reflective of normal actions in a civilized society. I think there many other people in here that think this as well but for some reason nobody likes disagreeing with Howard or Scottie anymore.

Now I'm going to Florida to jump in front of a speeding car and pull out a bazooka to stop it because I feared for my life.

I agree with what you said here, but the way the law is written, I don't think the jury was wrong to find him innocent. Being innocent under an idiotic law is far different from being morally innocent. Zimmerman created the situation. In a torts matter without Stand Your Ground, it's a poximate cause and he bears some liability.

I'm with you. I think this point was addressed well by Scott Lemieux, one of the bloggers at Lawyers, Guns and Money, here: http://prospect.org/article/zimmerman-a ... our-ground" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; .

If an armed person is going to be able to claim self-defense when shooting an unarmed person - and I can see situations where this might be legitimate - then there has to be some special consequence for getting into a confrontation in the first place. Whether that is a separate crime, or at least a violation of gun laws and cause for losing a license, who knows, but the law should be made absolutely clear that if you are armed, you don't get into a confrontation that could lead to your needing to use your weapon in self-defense. You mind your own fucking business.

And yeah, Scottie, I guess it is technically possible that Zimmerman would have harassed a white teenager walking down the street, but c'mon. There has to be like a 98% chance that Jerloma's opinion is correct about what would have happened if Trayvon wasn't black.

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:08 pm

Steve of phpBB wrote:If an armed person is going to be able to claim self-defense when shooting an unarmed person - and I can see situations where this might be legitimate - then there has to be some special consequence for getting into a confrontation in the first place. Whether that is a separate crime, or at least a violation of gun laws and cause for losing a license, who knows, but the law should be made absolutely clear that if you are armed, you don't get into a confrontation that could lead to your needing to use your weapon in self-defense. You mind your own fucking business.

This. Absolutely. I believe in many cases the law skews favorably toward women in circumstances like this. Which is why I was absolutely rooting for S.E. Cupp when she took down Michael Moore on Real Time with Bill Maher. Despite her other political opinions, she was absolutely correct here.

Giff · Post by **Giff** » Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:43 pm

It's true that we don't know FOR A FACT if Travis (his white name) would still be alive if he was white, but let's stop acting like it's completely fucking lunacy to have the opinion that black people are much more likely to be profiled as criminals than whites.

Shrew · Post by **Shrew** » Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:12 pm

So where did you all stand on this trial from when the news of the shooting broke and has your opinion changed now that the verdict was issued?

Before the trial I only saw the angelic pictures of a 12 year old Trayvon and assumed Zimmerman was in the wrong. Once the trial started I felt it was two idiots coming together and one ending up dead.

I guess my final takeaway is that just like my addiction to alcohol. There's not one situation that a gun (or booze) can't make 50 times worse.

Scottie · Post by **Scottie** » Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:13 pm

Steve of phpBB wrote:And yeah, Scottie, I guess it is technically possible that Zimmerman would have harassed a white teenager walking down the street, but c'mon. There has to be like a 98% chance that Jerloma's opinion is correct about what would have happened if Trayvon wasn't black.

Right. And I believe that Zimmerman initially focused on Martin specifically because he was a Black kid (in a neighborhood with a history of Black kids committing armed burglaries). Fact is, there is no legally-admissible evidence to support that assumption, as obvious as you may believe it to be.

You of all people should know that subjunctive musings are not substantial nor are they evidence and are ultimately irrelevant; deflecting away from what really happened and imposing fantasy in its place. That's the realm of the defense. For a prosecution to do so? Shameful and desperate.

Frankly, I believe that both Martin and Zimmerman made very bad mistakes that night. But if you had read my initial post you'd have seen that I stressed "based on the evidence that was presented" the jury made 100% the correct legal decision.

It's also possible that the prosecution might have dared playing the race card; it was the race card, after all, that resulted in the charges and trial. Of course, in keeping with their own debacle of a prosecution case, their own witness (Jeantel) was the only person in the entire trial to use any racially inflammatory language. Based on her testimony, Martin ended up looking more racist than Zimmerman. That may or may not have been a true reflection of the reality of the event but it sure as hell contributed big time to the prosecution's case collapsing.

All these assumptions about Zimmerman's mindset . . . funny, one never hears assumptions about Martin. He was just a kid with a bag of Skittles, right? That kid was no angel. That kid had a developing history. Zimmerman, naturally, had no way of knowing that. And if it is wrong to assume Martin was in that neighborhood to commit crimes, it is equally as spurious to assume Zimmerman targeted him because he was Black. You simply cannot make things up and use that as the ground upon which you will build an argument.

Zimmerman, it seems to have been largely ignored, is Hispanic. Yet this gets portrayed (in the vile excuse America has for media) as a White/Black confrontation. So all of this talk about "What If White" kinda pisses me off given that it is not simply irrelevant but contrived and misplaced. Proper idiocy would sound more like "If Martin was Hispanic . . . " but that doesn't quite sell advertising, does it?

Steve of phpBB · Post by **Steve of phpBB** » Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:18 pm

FWIW, I am not claiming that the verdict was incorrect. Even if Zimmerman profiled Martin because the kid was black, and even if Zimmerman feared him more because he was black, that still might be legitimate self-defense. And I am certainly unaware of any evidence proving otherwise beyond a reasonable doubt.

The reason why I personally am not making assumptions about Martin is because he didn't kill anyone that night.