What is The South?

[Shirley]

Leaving out the obvious states, I'm curious what y'all think of as The South.

This was inspired by this article at 538 that seemed shocked that Maryland wasn't considered southern by folks in The South.

[Rex]

1) Were you on the side of the confederacy?
2) Do you have toll booths?

[Johnny Carwash]

Of those, I went with VA, KY, TN, AR, FL. I think of Texas and Oklahoma as kind of their own thing.

[Shirley]

Yeah, I think Texas and West Virginia are kind of gray areas. If I had to choose only Yes or No though, I say No. Florida is a No as well, even though the top part is actually South. In my mind the South ends around Jacksonville. And to the north, it stops right around Fredericksburg, VA. NOVA is NOT the South.

[Rex]

Personally, I think the South begins in Fredericksburg when you are traveling on 95, and somewhere around Winchester when you are traveling on 81.

[mister d]

I think DE + MD are in a blurry some yes / some no section where some feels legit south and some very much doesn't.

[Rex]

Both Texas and Florida have regions that are very much the South. I believe Florida has toll booths, so technically it does not satisfy my two-part test. But I've also been to Destin.

[mister d]

(I went WV because its the northest south, not because its part of a straight line where everything below counts.)

[Rex]

My feelings on West Virginia are these:

1) It not only was on the Union side but owes its existence to being on the Union side
2) The only 32 miles that most people see don't feel southern at all
3) Their rival is Pitt

[Johnnie]

Don't feel like voting because it's not specific enough. It's roughly what I've circled.

Yes, I include Houston but not Dallas (You're welcome, rap music I listened to while I lived in "the South"). Certainly not Austin and definitely not San Antonio. That area of Oklahoma I have added? Totally guessing, but I suspect that's where it kinda fizzles.

And I'm trying to figure out where to draw the correct line in Florida. The pan handle, yes. Tampa, yes. Jacksonville, yes. Orlando? Never been, not sure. I just don't know where "rural" ends and "urban" begins. And I've road tripped from Tampa to Miami. Miami is not "the South" by any means. But I saw lots of "the South" on the way.

[Rex]

Good idea.

[HaulCitgo]

The South does not include Florida, New Orleans or Texas. Certainly not MD or DE but not WV either. Oklahoma is decidedly midwest. Closer call is TN not KY.

[mister d]

I feel like you have to spend two weeks auditing in Smyrna before you can declare Delaware 100% out.

[govmentchedda]

Don't feel like voting because it's not specific enough. It's roughly what I've circled.

Yes, I include Houston but not Dallas (You're welcome, rap music I listened to while I lived in "the South"). Certainly not Austin and definitely not San Antonio. That area of Oklahoma I have added? Totally guessing, but I suspect that's where it kinda fizzles.

And I'm trying to figure out where to draw the correct line in Florida. The pan handle, yes. Tampa, yes. Jacksonville, yes. Orlando? Never been, not sure. I just don't know where "rural" ends and "urban" begins. And I've road tripped from Tampa to Miami. Miami is not "the South" by any means. But I saw lots of "the South" on the way.

Your Florida line is pretty close, in my opinion, but you've excluded Tampa, even though you say you include it. I'd argue the line runs through Tampa. Or rather, Tampa proper, not the south. Greater Hillsborough county, the south.

[govmentchedda]

I'd also say Gulf beaches south of Tampa Bay (the actual water, and not the generic area name) are not the south, while those north of the bay might be.

[Ryan]

I only picked 3 of those - VA, TN, and FL

[sancarlos]

The southern half of Missouri is culturally southern. Gotta split that state in half.

[Johnnie]

Your Florida line is pretty close, in my opinion, but you've excluded Tampa, even though you say you include it. I'd argue the line runs through Tampa. Or rather, Tampa proper, not the south. Greater Hillsborough county, the south.

Ah, dammit. For some reason in my head I thought Tampa was a bit more north. Just mentally adjust my line to meet what you're saying.

[EnochRoot]

Don't feel like voting because it's not specific enough. It's roughly what I've circled.

Yes, I include Houston but not Dallas (You're welcome, rap music I listened to while I lived in "the South"). Certainly not Austin and definitely not San Antonio. That area of Oklahoma I have added? Totally guessing, but I suspect that's where it kinda fizzles.

And I'm trying to figure out where to draw the correct line in Florida. The pan handle, yes. Tampa, yes. Jacksonville, yes. Orlando? Never been, not sure. I just don't know where "rural" ends and "urban" begins. And I've road tripped from Tampa to Miami. Miami is not "the South" by any means. But I saw lots of "the South" on the way.

Your Florida line is pretty close, in my opinion, but you've excluded Tampa, even though you say you include it. I'd argue the line runs through Tampa. Or rather, Tampa proper, not the south. Greater Hillsborough county, the south.

Chedda, if you're honest that line runs 200 miles south.

[govmentchedda]

It probably mirrors the coastline, to be honest. Maybe 20-50 miles away or so at parts.

[tennbengal]

Of those, I went with VA, KY, TN, AR, FL. I think of Texas and Oklahoma as kind of their own thing.

This.

[Johnny Carwash]

Hey Rex, I see that you drew a small circle around Atlanta, presumably to indicate its un-Southernness due to transplants, etc. Would you give Charlotte the same treatment? Richmond?

[Joe K]

The southern half of Missouri is culturally southern. Gotta split that state in half.

I'm not exactly sure where the line would be, but St. Louis and its southern suburbs are not the South. I've been to Jefferson City a few times, and I wouldn't call that the South either. But if you drive south along the Mississippi River from St. Louis, you definitely enter "the South" somewhere before you get to Memphis.

[Ryan]

Entire states or GTFO

[bfj]

If anyone wants to see wlu's comment, check the NFL thread!

[Sabo]

If anyone wants to see wlu's comment, check the NFL thread!

This might be peak wlu_lax.

[Rex]

Hey Rex, I see that you drew a small circle around Atlanta, presumably to indicate its un-Southernness due to transplants, etc. Would you give Charlotte the same treatment? Richmond?

I don't think the joke works for anyplace else in the South. Atlanta is southern in the same way that Los Angeles is west coast--a bizarre perversion that magnifies some parts of the surrounding culture but rejects others.

[brian]

The southern half of Missouri is culturally southern. Gotta split that state in half.

Southern Ohio and southern Indiana as well.

[Steve of phpBB]

The southern half of Missouri is culturally southern. Gotta split that state in half.

I would also include the southern half of Illinois. The northern border of the South is I-72/74/70.

[Shirley]

Good idea.

That kind of matches my feeling as well. Johnnie, most of Virginia is definitely The South. I've only been to Tampa once, and it didn't feel like the South to me at all. It felt like Florida - tropical and bland. That said, the panhandle is definitely The South.

[Rex]

There's another line I find to be relevant. It's a little harder to conceptualize but here's my best effort:



Essentially it is everything on the Atlantic coast and everything north of I-85 until Atlanta. I would say that this separates the South from the Deep South. The places on the right, while Southern, also have a certain cultural affinity to the Northeast, though some won't admit it. They share a colonial history, and most of that area can reach New York or at least Philly by car in a day. Not coincidentally, the line also approximates the division between ACC and SEC fans.

[mister d]

C'mon, motherfuckers. They fly the confederate flag during their week long tailgates in Dover, DE. If that's not southern, this country is even more messed up than I thought.

[Nonlinear FC]

Leaving out the obvious states, I'm curious what y'all think of as The South.

This was inspired by this article at 538 that seemed shocked that Maryland wasn't considered southern by folks in The South.

Moving to MD from MI, I never really considered this state to be truly southern. I spent a lot of time in GA as a youngster, that was my perspective and context.

[Nonlinear FC]

If anyone wants to see wlu's comment, check the NFL thread!

This might be peak wlu_lax.

That a guy on here has "peak" anything should count for something, right?

[Nonlinear FC]

C'mon, motherfuckers. They fly the confederate flag during their week long tailgates in Dover, DE. If that's not southern, this country is even more messed up than I thought.

Nope. Confederate flag doesn't get you to Southern.

See: Just about every non urban area in the country these days. PA, NY, Mi, NJ, NH, MA, VT I can attest to seeing conf. flags hanging from porches over the last year.

[Shirley]

There's another line I find to be relevant. It's a little harder to conceptualize but here's my best effort:



Essentially it is everything on the Atlantic coast and everything north of I-85 until Atlanta. I would say that this separates the South from the Deep South. The places on the right, while Southern, also have a certain cultural affinity to the Northeast, though some won't admit it. They share a colonial history, and most of that area can reach New York or at least Philly by car in a day. Not coincidentally, the line also approximates the division between ACC and SEC fans.

Oh, I don't know about those entire coastlines. The South Carolina and Georgia coasts outside of Hilton Head and a few other resorts, are pretty deep. Maybe you can exclude the actual beachfront property. It gets pretty Southern in damn hurry even in North Carolina once you get about two blocks off the ocean and/or intercoastal.

[Rex]

I don't think this is a distinction between "more south" or "less south", and I definitely don't think there is a political distinction to be made here. More like two distinct visions of what the South is, one that is defined by its proximity to the northeast (and big Yankee transplant populations), the other that is probably influenced more by Texas and the Mississippi Delta more than anything else.

Another division, one that would bring Kentucky and Tennessee in with Virginia and the Carolinas, is between tobacco producing regions and non-tobacco producing regions. Oddly, or perhaps not oddly, drawing the line that way also draws a clear distinction between football country and basketball country (or maybe football country and "we care about other sports" country).

[Johnnie]

I see a vulture/peacock/turkey head and Raleigh is the eye. It's weird.

[DC47]

The southern half of Missouri is culturally southern. Gotta split that state in half.

Southern Ohio and southern Indiana as well.

This.

[Pruitt]

I know I'm in the south when I see the first Cracker Barrel.