War on Abortion

Okay . . . let's try this again.

Moderators: Shirley, Sabo, brian, rass, DaveInSeattle

User avatar
degenerasian
The Dude
Posts: 12346
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:22 pm

Re: War on Abortion

Post by degenerasian »

Scottie wrote:
degenerasian wrote:I guess my original point was that abortion is illegal in these countries. Not because of religion but because of stigma? The rate in Korea of Childbirth to abortion is 55-45. In 2011 450000 kids were born and 350000 fetus' aborted. That's astonishing.
Ultrasound. It's been a while since I've visited Korea but, damn, abortion is commonplace there. China, too. Parents are only "supposed" to have one child. Pregnant women have ultrasound tests not simply to determine the health of the child but to identify its sex. If it's female? Heavy chance it will be aborted.

You're absolutely right about the aspect of the culture that is historic and ingrained. Boys have always been prized and girls are a disappointment. I've seen women bawling their eyes out at temples because their child was a girl; asking G-d to forgive them for having a daughter, swearing to G-d that they'll give up eating red meat, they'll pray a dozen times every day, they'll do anything possible if only G-d will grant them a son, to avoid failing as a woman, to avoid her husband being ashamed that his seed was not strong enough to sow a son. My best friend in Korea, with whom I still remain close, is the director of internal medicine at one of the largest hospitals in South Korea. And this man of science, of medicine, was hell bent on his child being a boy. He was frankly obsessed with this. And even though he was a complete atheist, when his wife became pregnant, he'd go to Buddhist temples twice every day, visit fortune tellers and necromancers, employ any superstition imaginable, to "help" her child be born male. When his wife gave birth to a daughter, I congratulated him. He wept. His friends didn't congratulate him; they expressed their regret and offered condolences. So heavy does it weigh on their minds and stature. (Oddly, he named her "Chee-Wun", after a brand of Soju.)

What resulted in that country is that the number of the newest generation of Korean males has heavily outweighed the number of females. So in a typical schoolroom, you'll see about twenty boys and a dozen girls. This will get intriguing when they reach marriage age. There will be a tremendous number of unmarried men compared to women; the women will dominate the selection process (you can see that now in their pop culture). What will the men do? Aside from moving to Canada, that is. Gay culture is going to be huge in Korea; it's burgeoning already, although culturally taboo, ultimately inevitable. Of course the upside is that for gay males it will be a Golden Age.

Imagine if abortion was legal there. There would be no girls born.
Men indeed lose status if they have a girl. I've seen entire wills and fortunes that go t0 the family with the grandson, not the grand-daughter.Ask your friend, he probably lost a fortune.
Kung Fu movies are like porn. There's 1 on 1, then 2 on 1, then a group scene..
User avatar
Scottie
Donny
Posts: 2303
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:52 am
Location: Warming up in the bullpen.

Re: War on Abortion

Post by Scottie »

degenerasian wrote:Imagine if abortion was legal there. There would be no girls born.
Men indeed lose status if they have a girl. I've seen entire wills and fortunes that go t0 the family with the grandson, not the grand-daughter.Ask your friend, he probably lost a fortune.
Yep, probably. Particularly given that he is a nephew of Roh Tae-Woo who was president of South Korea around the time that Seoul hosted the Summer Olympics.
Your own personal AR-15 wielding Jesus
User avatar
The Sybian
The Dude
Posts: 18966
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:36 am
Location: Working in the Crap Part of Jersey

Re: War on Abortion

Post by The Sybian »

testuser2 wrote:When my wife and I were starting to try and have some minions our first resulted in a miscarriage. Unfortunately, in bumble fuck Appalachia there are not many options to have an abortion. We had to go to the local hospital. We checked in and were sent to the surgical waiting area. The waiting area is staffed with volunteers. When we were there it happened to be some blue-haired fossil. These volunteers were there to help with directions(bathrooms) and other general support. They never knew why we were there. Eventually the nurse comes and gets my wife and they head off for the procedure.

Somehow this woman discovered that we were there for an abortion. She missed the detail that the child was already dead. She then comes over to me and begins explaining to me that there are other options(adoption, etc...). She included a few hell references as well. I was dumbfounded. So much so that I just sat there and took it. Eventually she went away and proceeded to give her disapproving looks from her volunteer desk.

It took me a minute or two to pull myself together, but then I went on a walk around the area until I found a nurse. I explained to her what happened and told her that the volunteer had better be gone after I go to get a drink. At that point I was boiling. Hands shaking and everything. The nurse was very helpful. Whatever she did after that point worked. I never saw the volunteer again. Losing your first kid was pretty stressful. My wife took it even harder. I never told her the story.

I still get angry every time I think about it. If she would have done that when my wife was there I probably would have started a riot.
Damn, that pisses me off even hearing that. I'd like to think I would have gone off on the bitch, but having dealt with the empty numbness of losing a waned pregnancy, I totally get your lack of a response. I don't know if I told the tale of rushing my wife to the hospital at 3:00am when I thought she was losing my daughter at the 20 week mark, but I completely went apeshit on a less than helpful security guard who was too lazy to get off his chair. You can't predict how you will act in extreme circumstances, and the adrenaline of running every red light at 80 mph on 35 mph roads probably increased my agitation, but that asshole looked annoyed then pretended not to notice me as I begged for help getting my semi-conscious wife into the building while I had a sleepy 2 year old in tow. But back to the point, that bitch had no right to guilt you even if you were choosing an abortion. I used to work a block away from an abortion clinic in NYC, and they had protesters outside almost daily. My wife came with me to my office a couple days after miscarrying, and I was able to distract her so that she didn't notice the protest. I was so tempted to punch the assholes in the face for almost forcing my wife to look at a poster-sized high def photo of a fetus days after miscarrying one. I can't imagine what their sign does to people walking in for a D&C procedure.
An honest to God cult of personality - formed around a failed steak salesman.
-Pruitt
howard
Karl Hungus
Posts: 9467
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:00 pm

Even in Liberal Wisconsin

Post by howard »

Wis. gov signs abortion bill mandating admitting privileges, ultrasound; opponents vow to sue
More legislators telling doctors how to practice medicine, telling women what they have to do, against their will, to have a medical procedure. Fuck this bullshit.
Who knows? Maybe, you were kidnapped, tied up, taken away and held for ransom.

Those days are gone forever
Over a long time ago
Oh yeah…
howard
Karl Hungus
Posts: 9467
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:00 pm

Re: War on Abortion

Post by howard »

Who knows? Maybe, you were kidnapped, tied up, taken away and held for ransom.

Those days are gone forever
Over a long time ago
Oh yeah…
Johnnie
The Dude
Posts: 16809
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:31 pm
Location: TUCSON, BITCH!

Re: War on Abortion

Post by Johnnie »

This happened the other day:

mister d wrote:Couldn't have pegged me better.
EnochRoot wrote:I mean, whatever. Johnnie's all hot cuz I ride him.
User avatar
Steve of phpBB
The Dude
Posts: 8514
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:44 am
Location: Feeling gravity's pull

Re: War on Abortion

Post by Steve of phpBB »

While I generally fall on the pro-choice side of these things, I have a hard time justifying opposition to parental notification bills. I can't help feeling that parents have a right to be informed about their underage children's medical procedures. I'm pretty sure that if my son went to a doctor for an operation, they would tell me about it.

Howard, what do you think are the best justifications for opposing parental notification requirements?
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
howard
Karl Hungus
Posts: 9467
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:00 pm

Re: War on Abortion

Post by howard »

Because children belong to The State, not to the parents.

(Did I type that outloud?)

I'm not gonna try to craft an argument. Others have much better than I possibly could. My dismay is that this is a big step backward; parental notification has not been required in most (all?) states/jurisdictions for decades. I would defer to the case law supporting those prior statutes, than attempt my lame case.

ETA: Just quickly reviewed the history. I forgot how important PP v Casey 1992 was.

The court has consistently held that parental notification/consent serve to make abortion more difficult; however, only beyond some abstract degree of difficulty does a regulation become unconstitutional.

That threshold of difficulty has been moving over the years.

In 1976, (PP v Danforth) court ruled requirement of parental consent was unconstitutional due to universal enforcement/extreme obstacle beyond the threshold of constitutionality.

Casey, in 1992, ruled that parental involvement did not place an 'undue burden' upon the minor woman seeking an abortion.

How'd I do, professor?
Who knows? Maybe, you were kidnapped, tied up, taken away and held for ransom.

Those days are gone forever
Over a long time ago
Oh yeah…
User avatar
Steve of phpBB
The Dude
Posts: 8514
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:44 am
Location: Feeling gravity's pull

Re: War on Abortion

Post by Steve of phpBB »

Yikes. Way impressive, doc.

I was actually hoping for your personal moral justification for this kind of thing, rather than the legal stuff. I'm way too jetlagged for constitutional law.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
howard
Karl Hungus
Posts: 9467
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:00 pm

Re: War on Abortion

Post by howard »

My personal ethics/moral justification is pretty damn weak, on this issue, but it stems as a secondary conclusion from my more thoroughly explored views on other issues. Like place of government, as far away as possible from individual conduct. And like government staying away from determination of when the interest of a fetus draws equal with that of a pregnant woman. It is not for the government to say. Sure, the government should have a say in restricting certain activities of minors; this is not one of them.

And, my personal view on when the interests/rights of the fetus clearly biases me. As much as I like to distance my ethical view that 'it is none of govt's business', I acknowledge this bias.

I really try to avoid judgmental discussions on parenting (other than with my closest friends), as I have no experience as a parent. On this, and again the disclaimer that I'm just talking and I recognize I might behave 180˚ different if I ever spawn kids, I would not want the government to force my hypothetical 17 yo daughter to submit to my consent/notification. OTOH, I would kinda appreciate it for my hypothetical 13 yo daughter.

Children do not become adults overnight. They gradually acquire rights relative to their personal freedom. It is necessary for government to draw lines. I suppose in the end, I want this line drawn younger than 18 yo.
Who knows? Maybe, you were kidnapped, tied up, taken away and held for ransom.

Those days are gone forever
Over a long time ago
Oh yeah…
User avatar
Pruitt
The Dude
Posts: 18105
Joined: Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:02 am
Location: North Shore of Lake Ontario

Re: War on Abortion

Post by Pruitt »

Johnnie wrote:This happened the other day:

You know, the science-deniers, the religious fundamentalists, the delusional nostalgists, the anti-choicers...

They will always win. And the reason is that they work hard at getting themselves into a position where they can enact laws. Where they can ram their beliefs down everyone else's throats. And the reason is this: while they create organizations, while they lobby, while they peddle influence and work at selling their distortions of reality, their opponents are sitting back and releasing anger as tweets and facebook posts.

Disclaimer: (Not intended as a comment against Johnnie who posted this)

No fewer than a dozen of my Facebook friends posted this shocking video. I will bet you that no more than one or two of those people bothered following up on their momentary anger before moving on to posting pictures of what they ate for lunch.

Most North Americans are like Dug the Dog from the movie Up, well intentioned but easily distracted.

Whereas the "true believers" in our society will stop at nothing to get their agendas across.

Good for this woman for standing up for her beliefs. We'll see how many of her supporters get off their asses and do something other than shake their heads in disgust.
"beautiful, with an exotic-yet-familiar facial structure and an arresting gaze."
User avatar
kranepool
Bunny Lebowski
Posts: 575
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:46 am

Re: War on Abortion

Post by kranepool »

Image
mediamattersforamerica:

After Texas Senate passed a bill severely restricting access to abortion, former CNN/now Fox News contributor Erick Erickson celebrates by telling women to stock up on hangers.
mini puke to 1,558
Johnnie
The Dude
Posts: 16809
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:31 pm
Location: TUCSON, BITCH!

Re: War on Abortion

Post by Johnnie »

Wow. I can't even...just, wow.
mister d wrote:Couldn't have pegged me better.
EnochRoot wrote:I mean, whatever. Johnnie's all hot cuz I ride him.
User avatar
Steve of phpBB
The Dude
Posts: 8514
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:44 am
Location: Feeling gravity's pull

Re: War on Abortion

Post by Steve of phpBB »

howard wrote:My personal ethics/moral justification is pretty damn weak, on this issue, but it stems as a secondary conclusion from my more thoroughly explored views on other issues. Like place of government, as far away as possible from individual conduct. And like government staying away from determination of when the interest of a fetus draws equal with that of a pregnant woman. It is not for the government to say. Sure, the government should have a say in restricting certain activities of minors; this is not one of them.

And, my personal view on when the interests/rights of the fetus clearly biases me. As much as I like to distance my ethical view that 'it is none of govt's business', I acknowledge this bias.

I really try to avoid judgmental discussions on parenting (other than with my closest friends), as I have no experience as a parent. On this, and again the disclaimer that I'm just talking and I recognize I might behave 180˚ different if I ever spawn kids, I would not want the government to force my hypothetical 17 yo daughter to submit to my consent/notification. OTOH, I would kinda appreciate it for my hypothetical 13 yo daughter.

Children do not become adults overnight. They gradually acquire rights relative to their personal freedom. It is necessary for government to draw lines. I suppose in the end, I want this line drawn younger than 18 yo.
I think I agree with all of this. Although if you listen to 17-year-old girls, you'll find they aren't as mature as they might look.

From a medical perspective, is there any justification for parental approval? I'm thinking about medical risks and/or things like allergies a kid might not think about. E.g., I'm allergic to penicillin; would something like that be relevant?
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
howard
Karl Hungus
Posts: 9467
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:00 pm

Re: War on Abortion

Post by howard »

Medical justification? I don't think so. What you mention, parent having information the teenager is unaware of or doesn't remember is certainly possible, but extremely rare that such a scenario would make a difference, like one in a million rare.

One more thing on my thoughts on this issue. With most things, medical, political and philosophical, I tend to try to weigh a balance between opposing ideas or actions. Weighing the risks/benefits of one action or decision against the other. Same when I am considering immature, sexually active and pregnant 17yo girls.

On the other side of an abortion (and the various obstacles/impediments to such action) are the risks and benefits of a teenaged mother raising a child.

And my beginning assumptions (that the fetus has very limited claims to human rights while it is a parasite upon another human within her body) are very different that those of anti-abortion people (that a fetus has full human rights, equal to or greater than those of Mom). With such vastly different starting points, my risk/benefit equations are going to be null and void to someone starting from the other side.

Hence my evaluation of my personal ethics as not real important. I understand quite well why my views, no matter how logical, well-considered or beautifully constructed will never be persuasive (and vice versa). I love my opinions and I love to express them (in case no one has noticed), but i recognize they are worth even less than usual when it comes to abortion ethics.

To me the argument is who gets to decide, the individual, the community, the state, and in what balance/measure. Rather than what the decision should be. But I do enjoy the opportunity to indulge in deeper, broader considerations of what the decision should be.
Who knows? Maybe, you were kidnapped, tied up, taken away and held for ransom.

Those days are gone forever
Over a long time ago
Oh yeah…
User avatar
degenerasian
The Dude
Posts: 12346
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:22 pm

Re: War on Abortion

Post by degenerasian »

Chile's Abortion Debate
The case of a pregnant 11-year old girl who was raped by her mother’s partner has reignited a push to legalize abortion in Chile.

State television reported on Friday that the girl, identified only as “Belen,” is 14 weeks pregnant. Doctors say the pregnancy is high-risk, but abortion is illegal under all circumstances in the socially conservative country.
Kung Fu movies are like porn. There's 1 on 1, then 2 on 1, then a group scene..
User avatar
The Sybian
The Dude
Posts: 18966
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:36 am
Location: Working in the Crap Part of Jersey

Re: War on Abortion

Post by The Sybian »

The Satanic Temple of Detroit showed up to oppose(?) the protest of a Planned Parenthood office. They dressed up in baby bondage outfits, because...? Starts around 45 seconds in.


An honest to God cult of personality - formed around a failed steak salesman.
-Pruitt
User avatar
Jerloma
The Dude
Posts: 7130
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:10 pm

Re: War on Abortion

Post by Jerloma »

Missouri house votes 112-36 to ban abortion in all cases.

Money quote comes from this despicable piece of shit...
"Do you believe that it's just or compassionate to force a woman who's been raped to have the child of the man who raped her?" said Kansas City Democratic Rep. Lauren Arthur.

Dexter Republican Rep. Tila Hubrecht said she asked her doctor "to save the baby, no matter the cost" before she received an emergency cesarean section. She also said she's met people conceived by rape and that "there's a reason for their life."

"Sometimes bad things happen, and they're horrible things," she said. "But sometimes God can give us a silver lining through the birth of a child."
And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness. - God
howard
Karl Hungus
Posts: 9467
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:00 pm

Re: War on Abortion

Post by howard »

Jerloma wrote:Missouri house votes 112-36 to ban abortion in all cases.

Money quote comes from this despicable piece of shit...
Sounds like 112 despicable pieces of shit
Who knows? Maybe, you were kidnapped, tied up, taken away and held for ransom.

Those days are gone forever
Over a long time ago
Oh yeah…
tennbengal
The Dude
Posts: 12009
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:07 pm

Re: War on Abortion

Post by tennbengal »

Jerloma wrote:Missouri house votes 112-36 to ban abortion in all cases.

Money quote comes from this despicable piece of shit...
"Do you believe that it's just or compassionate to force a woman who's been raped to have the child of the man who raped her?" said Kansas City Democratic Rep. Lauren Arthur.

Dexter Republican Rep. Tila Hubrecht said she asked her doctor "to save the baby, no matter the cost" before she received an emergency cesarean section. She also said she's met people conceived by rape and that "there's a reason for their life."

"Sometimes bad things happen, and they're horrible things," she said. "But sometimes God can give us a silver lining through the birth of a child."
I know Roe v. Wade has been gutted, but it is still illegal to completely ban abortion.
User avatar
sancarlos
The Dude
Posts: 18254
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:46 pm
Location: NorCal via Colorado

Re: War on Abortion

Post by sancarlos »

tennbengal wrote:I know Roe v. Wade has been gutted, but it is still illegal to completely ban abortion.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking. So, what exactly is going on here?
"What a bunch of pedantic pricks." - sybian
User avatar
brian
The Dude
Posts: 27873
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:52 am
Location: Downtown Las Vegas

Re: War on Abortion

Post by brian »

In some cases, it's just symbolic, like how the U.S. House voted 8723 times (or whatever it was) to kill Obamacare even though they knew the Senate would never pass the bill and even if they did, Obama would veto it.

I think it's also possible that the pro-lifers think they can get another turn at the bat if Trump wins and appoints a conservative judge to the Supremes.
Bandwagon fan of the 2023 STANLEY CUP CHAMPIONS!
User avatar
Jerloma
The Dude
Posts: 7130
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:10 pm

Re: War on Abortion

Post by Jerloma »

brian wrote:In some cases, it's just symbolic, like how the U.S. House voted 8723 times (or whatever it was) to kill Obamacare even though they knew the Senate would never pass the bill and even if they did, Obama would veto it.

I think it's also possible that the pro-lifers think they can get another turn at the bat if Trump wins and appoints a conservative judge to the Supremes.
That's what I was thinking too. Scary shit.
And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness. - God
User avatar
Pruitt
The Dude
Posts: 18105
Joined: Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:02 am
Location: North Shore of Lake Ontario

Re: War on Abortion

Post by Pruitt »

"beautiful, with an exotic-yet-familiar facial structure and an arresting gaze."
Post Reply