World Cup 2018 Qualification

[Rex]

The ball has looked like a regular soccer ball when Mexico plays it and a grocery store incrediball when the USA plays it.

[rass]

/Wood joke.

[mister d]

In match, I cared. Post match, I see reasons to be ok with the result.

[Joe K]

In match, I cared. Post match, I see reasons to be ok with the result.

If I were Marquez, I would've broken out the most disrespectful celebration of all-time after scoring that goal.

[mister d]

It would have involved masonry and it would have been objectively incredible.

[mister d]

Sooooooo ... that it for Jurgs or no changes mid-stream like the NFL?

[brian]

It's now or never. They have 4.5 months before the next meaningful match.

[tennbengal]

That should be the death knell, but it probably won't be. I am despondent. His decisions are non-sensical, bordering on insane. That he relyed on a 35-year old Jermaine Jones coming off a knee injury and not remotely in condition at the midfield is fucked up. The midfield combos he went with were slow and unfamiliar with each other. If he is going to emphasize Pulisic (which he did and should), then you need a midfield that can work at that pace and push, and Bradley/Jones ain't that. Klejscten should have been field to start both games. The defense was a joke, and it looked like they quit on the coach.

Down six goals in goal differential after two games is beyond a disaster.

Fuck this.

[wlu_lax6]

Klejscten should have been field to start both games.

I wonder if he had enough fitness (ability to breath) with the very broken nose he got 5 days before the Mexico game.

I have to believe Benny F and Mix are hoping for Jurgen getting canned. What is clear is that the tone from US Soccer has changed since the 4-0 beating. Before the game it was "US has never switched coaches in the hex since 1980-something". This morning is we will not make a decision tonight but step back, reflect, talk to Jurgen and go from there.

[wlu_lax6]

Oh and if you fire Jurgen...who do you replace him with?

[A_B]

Down six goals in goal differential after two games is beyond a disaster.

Well rest easy because we're only -5!

[tennbengal]

Down six goals in goal differential after two games is beyond a disaster.

Well rest easy because we're only -5!

Oh. Yeah. We got one against Mexico. Lost that in the slaughter last night.

[HaulCitgo]

Geez. Didnt wake up expecting that result. Theyve gotten their butts kicked at Saprissa before but they played it on regular grass right? I kinda like Klinsmann but hes underperforming his roster at this point. Its pretty clear theyre gonna need every last point by the end and really no one should be 4 goals better than the US. Been a good ride, but its time to hit the autobahn.

[P.D.X.]

Not making the WC would be the perfect icing for this shitcake.

[Nonlinear FC]

If you go scroll through the original JK experience thread, you'll see my early optimism morph into where I am today: Dude needs to go.

There are structural/systemic issues with US soccer, particularly on the men's side, that needed to be addressed. I think they've made some strides there with the academies and some of the edicts around youth soccer (most notably at the earlier ages where they are discouraging shitty win-at-all-costs tactics in favor of teaching possession).

But, obviously(!), the guy is a shitty in-game coach. You are down 1-0 after an incredibly listless first half and you make zero changes? Your first sub is in the 70th minute?

Dude needs to go. Put Arena back in there.

[The Sybian]

I forgot to tape the game, and seeing the score, I was too depressed to read about it. WTF happened? From the list of starters, it seems like Jurgen stuck with the 3-5-2 that clearly didn't work against Mexico. I can't begin to comprehend how Chandler got the start both games, especially with Yedlin on the bench. Similar players, but Yedlin is much more of a threat going forward, and less of a defensive liability. Chandler can serve a nice cross, but other than that, he has been terrible. Bradley has looked awful for the past year or so. So many horrible giveaways and bad passes. Interesting point about Klejstan's nose. The way Klejstan and Pulisic play together, you have to find a way to get them both on the field. We've all been saying it for years, but what is Jurgen's hangup with Wondo? Sure, he is a decent utility player. He can hold the ball up and poach a few goals, but why keep relying on old guys? We have so much young, goal scoring talent, why grab an over-the-hill average player over young guys with enormous potential? Wondo should never be above Jordan Morris.

[elflaco]

Brooks.

upside to the result, is that the 'highlights' make for a perfect demonstration on HOW NOT TO PLAY DEFENSE. i swear, it looked like my u12 boys out on defense on one of those days that 5th graders just decide they're more interested in the something else besides the game at hand.

[Nonlinear FC]

I forgot to tape the game, and seeing the score, I was too depressed to read about it. WTF happened? From the list of starters, it seems like Jurgen stuck with the 3-5-2 that clearly didn't work against Mexico. I can't begin to comprehend how Chandler got the start both games, especially with Yedlin on the bench. Similar players, but Yedlin is much more of a threat going forward, and less of a defensive liability. Chandler can serve a nice cross, but other than that, he has been terrible. Bradley has looked awful for the past year or so. So many horrible giveaways and bad passes. Interesting point about Klejstan's nose. The way Klejstan and Pulisic play together, you have to find a way to get them both on the field. We've all been saying it for years, but what is Jurgen's hangup with Wondo? Sure, he is a decent utility player. He can hold the ball up and poach a few goals, but why keep relying on old guys? We have so much young, goal scoring talent, why grab an over-the-hill average player over young guys with enormous potential? Wondo should never be above Jordan Morris.

He actually reverted back to the 442, but as you mention even in a 442, you want your outside backs getting forward and this lot just sucks at it.

Apparently Yedlin is in the doghouse for some fucking reason. I will straight up admit, I don't know if Nagbe is hurt or something, but I don't understand why he or Feilhaber or someone who can possess in the midfield and be a nuisance out of the midfield isn't out there. You've got slow, broke down Bradley and Jones who just shells of their former selves. You can't win against Mexico, Costa Rica... Shit, Honduras and probably Panama, if you rely solely on hoofing shit up to Altidore.

There's no acknowledgement of what is plain for all to see - this team is not playing to full potential. Klinsmann is unprepared or unwilling to make adjustments.

He needs to be gone.

[DC47]

I share most of the ideas expressed above about Klinsman's tactics. As I recall, he wasn't considered good at this. His assistant Low was said to be the guy who really was providing direction. Obviosly he's had some success in Germany on his own after Klinsman departed. I wonder if the USA men lack an assistant who's got the tactical goods?

But the USA men failing badly is no shock to me. Talent is the primary factor. So many of the (only) moderately talented players who have made up the core of the team have gotten old. Obviously Donovan is long gone. But Howard, Dempsey, and Jones aren't what they were. Bradley is old for an attacking midfielder who largely relies on his work rate. They have some young players with potential. But they're not this good yet.

I agree with those who say American soccer is improving at the elite level in the youth ranks. Klinsman appears to have something to do with this, but it's primarily a higher-level initiative. This is good. But this improvement is from a very low level of quality by international standards, and it's not really that big a move from an organizational point of view.

It will take a long time to get away from relatively low-skill, win-at-all-costs soccer even in the most elite youth ranks. Edicts alone don't do it. Coaching skills, coaching career concerns, clueless parents, lack of desperation born of poverty, club team costs -- these things and others work against progress. And development academies, even when done right, don't provide the motivation for kids aged 5 to 12 to obsessively work on their technical skills and to do this in the right way. They can improve the context for older kids, but they kick in too late to made an impact at this important stage i the development of elite players.

And yes, I saw Pulisic play up close when he was very young. He's wonderful now, plays soccer the right way, and has got a big upside. I was a consultant to the professional soccer team where his dad worked, so I watched him train as a kid in that context. I've enjoyed following him since then. But the US needs 5 to 10 players with his commitment and skill, in every age group, to yield a decent men's team in 10 years. I don't see anything like this in the US pipeline now. It's going to take a very long time, if indeed it ever even happens. Klinsman staying or going has nothing to do with this. Unless his replacement uses his leverage to revert the USA style to the historic retrograde version that isn't consistent with developing young talent to play some version of sophisticated modern soccer.

[P.D.X.]

Klinsman staying or going has nothing to do with this.

I guess if you don't value the WC as an important development tool.

[DC47]

First, they're not out of it. Second, I don't think the coach makes that much of a difference in a small number of games. A new coach is not going to revolutionize a deeply mediocre team. Third, the current players are going to have to be almost entirely turned over before this team is relevant in the WC.

[Nonlinear FC]

We've butted heads occasionally DC, but I agree with all of that 100 percent. We've both, respectively, made a lot of those points in these threads. I particularly want to highlight this:

Coaching skills, coaching career concerns, clueless parents, lack of desperation born of poverty, club team costs -- these things and others work against progress.

The bolded part in particular. It's nuanced, so a lot of folks glaze over when you try to explain it. The guys who make it out of S. America and Europe... Those guys aren't coming from upper or even upper middle class situations. They are playing for the same reasons poor kids in Americas inner city or tough rural areas gravitate toward basketball and football... A way out of a shitty situation.

That's just never going to happen here. It's a major, inherent obstacle that we just have to swallow and move on.

[Nonlinear FC]

First, they're not out of it. Second, I don't think the coach makes that much of a difference in a small number of games. A new coach is not going to revolutionize a deeply mediocre team. Third, the current players are going to have to be almost entirely turned over before this team is relevant in the WC.

We're talking about just making it, at this particular point. And JK has built up a book of business that is enough to see him shown the door.

My vote would be to see if he wants to stay on in some kind of organizational advisory role, but get him and Low off the bench.

Their roster choices and lack of ability to adjust tactics during games have been recurring issues for some time now. They got away with it in high profile games, sometimes in near miraculous scenarios. They have also shit the bed fairly spectacularly on a number of occassions that weren't the WC, so they skated.

They have now put up the worst WCQ loss since 1980, after ending the dos a cero run of something like 4 games in a row.

Done.

[HaulCitgo]

Coaching skills, coaching career concerns, clueless parents, lack of desperation born of poverty, club team costs -- these things and others work against progress.

The bolded part in particular. It's nuanced, so a lot of folks glaze over when you try to explain it. The guys who make it out of S. America and Europe... Those guys aren't coming from upper or even upper middle class situations. They are playing for the same reasons poor kids in Americas inner city or tough rural areas gravitate toward basketball and football... A way out of a shitty situation.

You don't have to be broke to be great at soccer. This isn't football. The talent level keeps going up and is higher than any point in history. If anything they need huevos and that's the problem with the foreigners. They don't give a shit beyond their careers. You don't lose 4-0 in an important game out of pride. They need em to compete talent wise with the best but they seem to have lost the stones. All else equal I take talent but they've got to marry the two and one or the other won't cut it. Back against the wall and they gave in. Why you have to make a coaching move but apparently they've decided otherwise or else it would be done already. Gonna be too late after the next two. Bring in an American and kick some ass, one way or another, on the field or in a fight. Better than 4-0.

[The Sybian]

You don't have to be broke to be great at soccer. This isn't football. The talent level keeps going up and is higher than any point in history. If anything they need huevos and that's the problem with the foreigners. They don't give a shit beyond their careers. You don't lose 4-0 in an important game out of pride. They need em to compete talent wise with the best but they seem to have lost the stones. All else equal I take talent but they've got to marry the two and one or the other won't cut it. Back against the wall and they gave in. Why you have to make a coaching move but apparently they've decided otherwise or else it would be done already. Gonna be too late after the next two. Bring in an American and kick some ass, one way or another, on the field or in a fight. Better than 4-0.

You don't need to be broke to be good at soccer, but having middle class parents and upbringing dramatically decreases your chances of being put in a position to become elite. Check out the book Soccernomics, it is astounding the percentage of players throughout Europe and South America who grew up working class or poor. Middle class and wealthy parents push their kids towards academics or a well-rounded mix of activities. In the US, it is extremely difficult to get a middle class or wealthy parent to send their 12 year old kid to live at a soccer academy full time, and give up a traditional education, and ship their kids off. In most of the world, the most talented kids are living and training full time in academies. The US has what, 40 kids in each age group at the academy in Bradenton? Players going to college is a borderline career killer. The college years are prime development for professional players, and spending 3 or 4 months a year in season, while studying and living the college life sets these players back tremendously. I just can't see too many American parents putting all of their eggs in the soccer development basket. One injury, and the kid never makes a living at soccer, and they are fucked.

The other socioeconomic factor is how kids play. Middle class and wealthy kids play in organized leagues, with maybe 2 structured practices a week. This doesn't allow kids to develop creativity and soccer intelligence. Take a look at a video of kids playing in the favelas of Brazilian slums. These kids are playing in tiny squares of space, being creative and using the traditional Brazilian flair to keep the ball away from their friends. Kaka is about the only Brazilian team member who didn't grow up in poverty. Soccernomics went through the list of England's national team at the time, and all but a handful of the player's fathers' worked in factories, or as laborers. I remember seeing a piece during the 1998 World Cup (I think), about Zidane and his childhood neighborhood. Algerian immigrants were poor, stuck in ghettos segregated from society, and had nothing. Soccer was the way out for them, and they had no other options but to go outside and play on their own. If you look at most of the European teams, they have a huge number of immigrants, and this is why.

To DC's post, I agree that the US youth development is starting to take a step in the right direction. My daughter is playing U-8. They play 5v5, including the goalie. This gives kids a lot more time on the ball, and the much smaller field calls for more ball control and dribbling. You can't just bomb it up to the fasted kid cherry picking up front. Next year moves to 7v7. When I played, it was always 11v11. We play in the Eastern Development Program, and they don't do throwins at this age. They pass the ball in, and the other team has to back up and wait until the pass is received. I love the new innovation of the "take out line" on goal kicks. Kids have to stay behind a line well outside the box to allow the goal kicking team to control the ball and try to work the ball upfield, rather than having the strongest foot boot the ball indiscriminately down field. Hopefully this will help us develop a player who is comfortable on the ball. Reyna and Ramos are about the only players we've had who could possess the ball.

I disagree with DC in that I think we have the best batch of young talent we've ever had. There seems to be much fewer Americans in the top leagues in Europe, other than the German guys with American servicemen fathers, but we have more American kids in European academies than ever before. Lyndon Gooch came through Sunderland's academy, we have a kid in Madrid's academy, Pulisic came out of Dortmund's academy, Zelalem went to Arsenal as a kid... Someone posted a fantastic article about the making of Pulisic and why there has never been a superstar to come out of the US. The amount of pieces that had to fall into place with Pulisic, primarily his parents both being star collegiate players and his father coaching professional teams and bringing him along to training as a little kid played a huge part. Plus, they made the huge decision to send him to Germany as a young kid. I recently saw a list of the top young prospects around the world, put out by a British publication, and out of the top 20, I think 3 were Americans.

As for Jurgen, my understanding is he is very involved in building the youth system in the US, and has shown some success. He is just a terrible man manager and ingame decision maker. He doesn't match his players strengths to the formation and game plan, he doesn't make substitutions or tactical changes quickly enough, and players don't seem to like him. There is just huge swings in results. One weekend we beat the Netherlands and Germany away, with amazing performances, then we turn around and shit the bed at the Gold Cup. I go from being totally psyched about how good the team is, then we lose to Mexico in Columbus and get thrashed in Costa Rica. This better turn around, I can't handle missing the world Cup.

[Shirley]

Reyna and Ramos are about the only players we've had who could possess the ball.

FWIW, both of those guys played college soccer for at least 3 years. Pretty much all of the US players of that era did (Meolo, Harkes, Pope, McBride, etc.) played college soccer and those teams were every bit as competitive internationally as we are now. Maybe more so.

[Shirley]

[degenerasian]

at least he didn't lose to Canada (2 wins 2 draws0

[Nonlinear FC]

I would just like to say, Facebook reminded that I said pretty much the same thing about JK in a post in 2014 after a 4-1 loss to IRL.

[DC47]

I'm not very concerned about whether the USA men's team plays mediocre or a little worse in the WC and its run-up. Replace Klinsman and the upside is mediocre.

I'd be more concerned about whether replacing him ends the pipeline to young European players who qualify to play for USA based on parentage. I'd also be concerned if his replacement is less committed to the generally positive -- if not overwhelmingly so -- changes in elite youth soccer in America.

Absent a replacement who would be better tactically but still as good on the two factors above -- a very tall order -- I'd keep Klinsman. I'd pay some attention as to whether teaming him up with a strong tactician as an assistant would be a productive move. But ultimately, it's dramatically improved talent that will move the team to something resembling 'good' (say, top 10 in the World). Not just better tactics, including in this player use.

The current elite youth ranks may be the best ever. I don't know all of the best. But I would certainly be playing Zelalem and Pulisic virtually every minute in order to develop them, and the team around their style. To a somewhat lesser extent Yedlin, Green, Gooch, Wood, Morris, Nagbe, Hindman, and Horvath (admittedly I have seen little of a few of these players in a pro soccer setting). However, 'best ever' group of young players for the USA is using a very low hurdle. Dramatic player development is possible and could change my assessment. But other countries have superb young players who aren't yet featured on their national teams. So even though they are quite good by historic American standards, the current ~U23 crop is not likely to be good enough to get USA into the top 10 in the next 5-8 years in my view.

[Sabo]

Gold Cup 2017 locations were announced today. The USMNT will play in Nashville on July 8, Tampa on July 12 and Cleveland on July 15.

I'm almost certain to go to the Cleveland game in case anyone wants to do a Swamp meet up.

[P.D.X.]

Interesting they're playing Group C at Mile High and not at the Dick.

[wlu_lax6]

Interesting they're playing Group C at Mile High and not at the Dick.

Gold cup is CONCACAF. They like big venues and NFL owners.

[Sabo]

Gold Cup 2017 locations were announced today. The USMNT will play in Nashville on July 8, Tampa on July 12 and Cleveland on July 15.

I'm almost certain to go to the Cleveland game in case anyone wants to do a Swamp meet up.

I also won a spot in the presale, so I can get tickets before the general public on Feb. 22. I searched seats about 10 minutes ago, and $50 tickets results in second-row club-level seating near midfield.

[wlu_lax6]

So sponsors shying away from 2018 World Cup. Wonder why?


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... draws-near

[wlu_lax6]

World Cup 2018....Hooliganism as a sport
http://www.businessinsider.com/a-russia ... ort-2017-3

[wlu_lax6]

The Deuce is loose...need points. Like the squad
http://www.espnfc.us/united-states/stor ... qualifiers

[wlu_lax6]

Man the US are not going into these really important games as walking wounded.

Morris is day-to-day with an ankle injury
No Wood
No Johnson
No Yedlin
Boyd got dinged up
Had to add Wondo
Deuce is just coming back from the Heart issue
Altidore will pull a hamstring

Friday night is going to be a tough

[rass]

I believe I'll fall asleep!

[The Sybian]

Soooo, anyone going to play out on the wings tonight?