Godless III - Completing The Trinity

[Johnnie]

Called it.

[Jerloma]

This is high comedy. The FFRF had a 10 Commandments Monument moved from the front steps of a public junior high school, so as an act of revenge, this church put a 10 commandments monument on it's front lawn. They seem to think atheists would be upset by this.

Marietta urged the crowd “not to be afraid because the Lord, your God, is with you.”

“We must be strong and show courage,” Marietta said. “I'm not backing down. You're getting a call from God. Pick up God's call and answer it. The time is now to defend your faith.”

“Freedom from religion offends Christians,” Colatch said. “Christians don't believe that atheists should tell us what we can and cannot do. This monument is the free speech zone.

“They have wakened up people of this area,” Colatch said. “We decided to stand up for Freedom of religion — not from religion. No one is going to move this stone. We will not allow it. We've decided to stand up for this monument and to stand up for Jesus Christ.”

Isn't the fucking church already a religious symbol? No one's trying to move that.

[Scottie]

Although if one were to type out the numeral and all of its zeroes in a description of the odds on extraterrestrial life landing a spaceship on Earth the number would be so large as to be meaningless, given that it would be ten to the power of really fucking hugely enormous, I really hope they do show up in my lifetime, take a look around at all the awestruck Earthlings and declare . . . "You believe WHAT? Really? You have gotta be kidding me. Seriously. A guy who lives in the sky created the entire universe? Everything? Some guy? Bwahahahaha! No way! Hahahahaha (deep breath) Bwahahahahaha! Oh, man. Who had "idiots" in the pool? Zonktar? Did you have "idiots" in the "what will the Earthlings be like" pool? Yeah, you win, man. Big time. Good call. Fuck me, which one of you Doogs classified this place as having intelligent life? Anyway, dumbfucks, it happened like this . . . "

And even then, in the wake of being mocked by clearly superior space travellers, unquestionably advanced beings possessed of iron-clad science explaining all there is to explain, there would remain those so determined to live in a world of structured denied reality that Al Jeezizz would probably still not go the fuck away.

[The Sybian]

Although if one were to type out the numeral and all of its zeroes in a description of the odds on extraterrestrial life landing a spaceship on Earth the number would be so large as to be meaningless, given that it would be ten to the power of really fucking hugely enormous, I really hope they do show up in my lifetime, take a look around at all the awestruck Earthlings and declare . . . "You believe WHAT? Really? You have gotta be kidding me. Seriously. A guy who lives in the sky created the entire universe? Everything? Some guy? Bwahahahaha! No way! Hahahahaha (deep breath) Bwahahahahaha! Oh, man. Who had "idiots" in the pool? Zonktar? Did you have "idiots" in the "what will the Earthlings be like" pool? Yeah, you win, man. Big time. Good call. Fuck me, which one of you Doogs classified this place as having intelligent life? Anyway, dumbfucks, it happened like this . . . "

And even then, in the wake of being mocked by clearly superior space travellers, unquestionably advanced beings possessed of iron-clad science explaining all there is to explain, there would remain those so determined to live in a world of structured denied reality that Al Jeezizz would probably still not go the fuck away.

And don't forget that millions of people get killed due to having slightly different interpretations of this same Sky Guy.

[Jerloma]

Although if one were to type out the numeral and all of its zeroes in a description of the odds on extraterrestrial life landing a spaceship on Earth the number would be so large as to be meaningless, given that it would be ten to the power of really fucking hugely enormous, I really hope they do show up in my lifetime, take a look around at all the awestruck Earthlings and declare . . . "You believe WHAT? Really? You have gotta be kidding me. Seriously. A guy who lives in the sky created the entire universe? Everything? Some guy? Bwahahahaha! No way! Hahahahaha (deep breath) Bwahahahahaha! Oh, man. Who had "idiots" in the pool? Zonktar? Did you have "idiots" in the "what will the Earthlings be like" pool? Yeah, you win, man. Big time. Good call. Fuck me, which one of you Doogs classified this place as having intelligent life? Anyway, dumbfucks, it happened like this . . . "

And even then, in the wake of being mocked by clearly superior space travellers, unquestionably advanced beings possessed of iron-clad science explaining all there is to explain, there would remain those so determined to live in a world of structured denied reality that Al Jeezizz would probably still not go the fuck away.

Apropos of nothing, the names you come up with for the Jewish carpenter slay me.

The irony of the above scenario of course is that if these creatures have mastered physics so much where they could travel billions of light years through time and space...they probably already mastered biology to the point where they've already made themselves immortal ages ago.

[Johnnie]

Apropos of nothing, the names you come up with for the Jewish carpenter slay me.

Absofuckinglutely. Al-Jeeziz is excellent. I'd have to steal that to make "Muhammad Al-Jeeziz" if I were to ever dress as a Muslim, yet closeted Christian, for Halloween or something.

And I too have previously hoped that there was some way some form of judgment (non-Biblical) would happen to the lot of overly religious individuals. I once asked my Bible thumping ex-gf "What if some other form of life is discovered on a distant planet? Wouldn't every religious person feel awkward and silly?" And her answer was some mixture of "It would be cool and wouldn't phase me" mixed with "obviously there's a greater reason for that life to be there." Why did I ever think there were long terms plans with that one? Oh yea. I'm an idiot.

[Jerloma]

Christian tweeters offended by the term "Royal Baby."

[brian]

Went and saw Reza Aslan speak about his new book "Zealot" at the public library last night and it was great. Talked about a lot of stuff I didn't know about Jesus or which I hadn't put the pieces together on before. Fortunately there were no creepy Christians there asking stupid questions or anything like that.

[ZMan]

Mingya. We jokingly call my Aunt "Ned Flanders" because of her thumping, but even she doesn't have a jesus fetish to that degree.

[Jerloma]

The more that biblical scholars dig into the historicity of Jesus and the authenticity of the bible as well as the external sources that people point to like Josephus...the more it appears as if though this person never actually existed.

[brian]

I think it's incredibly likely that Jesus existed, but the interesting part of the talk was the fact that there were dozens if not hundreds of self-proclaimed messiahs at the time who insisted they could do miracles, etc. etc. so what was the difference between those guys and Jesus and essentially it comes down to the fact that Jesus' followers were better at PR post-crucifixion. Most of the followers of those others guys just took their balls and went home after they were staked to a tree.

[Jerloma]

I think it's as likely that he existed as any of the other man-god figures invented by man throughout history that we now call myths. If you look at all of these pagan messiahs that came before Jesus (Dionysius, Osiris, Hercules, and like a shitload of others), they all share most of the same characteristics. They were the son of God, their mother was a human virgin, their birth was prophesized by a star, they turned water to wine at a wedding, they walked on water, their followers were baptized with water, they had disciples, they were accused of heresy, they were executed by the state, they were resurrected into heaven 3 days after their death where they would judge humanity alongside dear old Pop. The whole thing is such an obvious forgery of a pre-existing model.

[P.D.X.]

I think it's as likely that he existed as any of the other man-god figures invented by man throughout history that we now call myths. If you look at all of these pagan messiahs that came before Jesus (Dionysius, Osiris, Hercules, and like a shitload of others), they all share most of the same characteristics. They were the son of God, their mother was a human virgin, their birth was prophesized by a star, they turned water to wine at a wedding, they walked on water, their followers were baptized with water, they had disciples, they were accused of heresy, they were executed by the state, they were resurrected into heaven 3 days after their death where they would judge humanity alongside dear old Pop. The whole thing is such an obvious forgery of a pre-existing model.

Jesus comes in 5th.

[Jerloma]

I think it's as likely that he existed as any of the other man-god figures invented by man throughout history that we now call myths. If you look at all of these pagan messiahs that came before Jesus (Dionysius, Osiris, Hercules, and like a shitload of others), they all share most of the same characteristics. They were the son of God, their mother was a human virgin, their birth was prophesized by a star, they turned water to wine at a wedding, they walked on water, their followers were baptized with water, they had disciples, they were accused of heresy, they were executed by the state, they were resurrected into heaven 3 days after their death where they would judge humanity alongside dear old Pop. The whole thing is such an obvious forgery of a pre-existing model.

Jesus comes in 5th.

I totally banged Robin Hood's mom.

[Jerloma]

Brian, did he talk about Constantine choosing Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire in like 400 and the Council of Nicea? That's considered by most historians to be the biggest reason for the spread of Christianity.

(Along side the inconvenience of being killed for not saying you believed it)

[howard]

…so what was the difference between those guys and Jesus and essentially it comes down to the fact that Jesus' followers were better at PR post-crucifixion.

I think power of the message. A loving, forgiving creator. But that's just me.

[Jerloma]

…so what was the difference between those guys and Jesus and essentially it comes down to the fact that Jesus' followers were better at PR post-crucifixion.

I think power of the message. A loving, forgiving creator that would torture you for eternity for not believing in him. But that's just me.

FTFY

[brian]

Brian, did he talk about Constantine choosing Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire in like 400 and the Council of Nicea? That's considered by most historians to be the biggest reason for the spread of Christianity.

(Along side the inconvenience of being killed for not saying you believed it)

The scope of the book and the discussion was Jesus and his time, so that wouldn't have really have been germane.

[howard]

…so what was the difference between those guys and Jesus and essentially it comes down to the fact that Jesus' followers were better at PR post-crucifixion.

I think power of the message. A loving, forgiving creator that would torture you for eternity for not believing in him. But that's just me.

FTFY

That message was an improvement. Over a creator who would fuck with you here on Earth (Lot, Job, Sodom, 40 years in the desert, et al.)

[Scottie]

…so what was the difference between those guys and Jesus and essentially it comes down to the fact that Jesus' followers were better at PR post-crucifixion.

I think power of the message. A loving, forgiving creator that would torture you for eternity for not believing in him. But that's just me.

FTFY

A loving, forgiving, creator with his own personal dungeon and eternal torture chamber, yes.

Anyway, the plagiarism, as it were, goes back much further than the McGod protagonist. If you look at ancient religions, and there is no shortage of them, one ever-occurring event is the flood myth. The Book of Genesis is derivative from top to bottom; the flood which Yahweh Joe inflicted on Earth to wipe out humanity because humans were such a disappointment (hey, you created them, fuckwit) is common through countless examples. The Maya had a flood myth, the Mesopotamians beat the Christians to it as well. Heck, even The Epic Of Fucking Gilgamesh features the world being destroyed by a flood as one of its central special effects. Greece, India, China, name it; the flood myth is de rigeur to gimcrack religions.

The Creation Myth is also heavily plagiarized and rebooted. Even primitive man saw the rains as seed inseminating the soil thus giving life. They assumed this was their particular deity's doing and, since it rained regularly, struck them as eternal. This is still being reimagined in myriad ways. Consider T.S. Eliot's The Waste Land; right from the start you'll see the cyclical creation myth in action. At least foliage and rain is an obvious explanation and one more visible than the outlandishly bizarre claim that some guy made it all up for kicks.

Also ceaselessly reinvented is McGod, son of Joe Skydude, fashioned to be contemporary hither and yon. I've offered my thoughts on this before but it's worth revisiting. To complement Jerloma's character sketch, we typically see a child of obscure origins, raised by those other than his mysteriously absent (or killed in some tragic way) natural parents who are perhaps relatives or kindly mentors, his true identity remains unknown to even him for a while, he's an idealist, smarter than your average bear, picks up a sidekick or two, falls in love with some chick who will turn out to be beyond what he imagined, goes off on a quest, overcomes hardships and symbolic challenges, eminently chivalrous, bravely fights evil despite great odds in a supernatural way beyond mere fellow mortals, defeats evil, returns home a hero, becomes lawgiver unto his people, dies brilliantly. That's Jeezer. It's also Ulysses, Odysseus, Beowulf, Gilgamesh, Sir Gawain does the Green Knight, and countless others. It's also Luke Skywalker and Harry Potter. That construct sells today and it sold 2000 years ago when a particularly successful snakeoil salesman (who seems to have been born to a spinster impregnated by a pigeon sent from Skydude), the proto-hippie, formed his Ur-commune.

In keeping with the human capacity for getting everything that is philosophical backwards is that contemporary thrift-store-couture stinky-feet hippies are given to Atheism whereas the Conservative crowd, whose forebearers actually murdered the hippie Jahbooger character, worship the fuck out of him, inflicting idealism while despising idealists. The misinterpretation runs deep.

[Jerloma]

That's why Klozmodius would have made one hell of a pope, right there.

[DSafetyGuy]

I think I still have a Joe Skydude rookie card in a box at my mom's house.

[howard]

You forgot Batman

[sancarlos]

Changing the subject a bit - Jerloma (and, you others), how do you handle religion with your daughter? (Or whatever you have?) I'm still technically a Catholic, albeit a very skeptical semi-agnostic one. My wife is much the same. But, we both grew in religious households and have close relatives who are super-religious, so we try to at least expose my daughter to religion, so that she'll have enough facts and differing points of view to make her own decisions as she matures. Which means occasionally dragging her to Mass, and explaining as much of the dogma as I understand myself. My 12 year-old is very sharp and she makes many of the skeptic arguments back to me that one reads in this thread. She's hell in an argument. So when I try to debate with her, I generally give in to her points and suggest she discuss it further with grandma. Of course, she knows better than to try that. You can't debate against blind faith.

[Jerloma]

SC, I never had any problem exposing them to religion but when they ask me questions about how the world works, I've always given them real answers. Audrey has a better understanding of evolution than 90% of the people in this country. She'll look at animals and constantly try to figure out what evolutionary advantage any given features provided for them. She's in awe of it. They always went to church with my wife, although she doesn't even go any more. I told them 3 things about church:

1. The pastor is just sharing an opinion. She has no more insight into the origins or purpose of life than me or you. If you think it sounds reasonable...believe it. If you don't, form your own opinion. Also, they have no authority over you except in the adult-child aspect.

2. There's nothing magical about that book. It's just a book like any other. If you think it sounds reasonable, believe. If you don't...don't.

3. There's no such thing as hell. Anyone who tries to threaten you with eternal damnation for not thinking as they do is trying to control you and they should not be trusted.

So this makes the indoctrination process challenging to say the least. If they grow up to be religious, it's not because they would have been scared into it. That was always my biggest fear...the social engineering with fear as the tool.

Audrey told me she was an atheist a couple months ago. I kind of knew...she asked too many questions. She's actually Pastafarian now though. He boiled for her sins.

For the record...you said you were agnostic. Just wanted to point out that atheist and agnostic aren't mutually exclusive. One speaks to belief and the other to knowledge. I'm both. I'd never claim to know that there isn't a God but I don't believe there is either. A lot of people think that agnosticism is like a step before atheism.

I think everyone should be agnostic about God, whether they are religious or not. It's really the only intellectually honest position to have.

[howard]

3. There's no such thing as hell.

Boy, are you in for a big surprise.

[Jerloma]

I totally have a plan if I'm wrong. I just need like 3 minutes with Joe Skydude. If he doesn't accept my answer, I don't want to spend eternity with him anyway.

[P.D.X.]

"Since you're omnipotent, you already know my case. BFF's?"

[Shirley]

So, I read (listened to) The Da Vinci Code a year or two ago. Before the book got silly, it had a lot of interesting stuff about early Christianity - how the Bible was put together and also a lot about the frequent repurposing of older religions into the stories of the Bible. It was pretty fascinating.

Coincidentally, I visited the Louve just a few days ago and, of course, saw the Mona Lisa. Couldn't help but think of that book. The next day, we went into Notre Dame and then Sainte Chapelle - two amazingly impressive and beautiful cathedrals. It's interesting for a non-believer like myself to go into these incredible buildings and wonder at the power of the myth. Truly remarkable.

[The Sybian]

The next day, we went into Notre Dame and then Sainte Chapelle - two amazingly impressive and beautiful cathedrals. It's interesting for a non-believer like myself to go into these incredible buildings and wonder at the power of the myth. Truly remarkable.

Word. That was exactly what I was thinking the entire time I strolled the Vatican. That, and all of the peasants from the Middle Ages on who gave the Church all of it's money under the threats of eternal damnation. Hundreds of Millions of people could have lived better lives, but for the lies. Then again, a few men couldn't have lived nearly as well, so maybe it was a good thing?

J-Lo, I love your approach. My almost 7 yo is still gullible as all get out. He still argues with me that there is an episode of Barney (the purple dinosaur) where he kills a boy and goes to jail. A classmate's older brother told her, who in turn told him. This same girl proselytizes all the time to him as well. So far I deflect his comments about Jesus. I will wait until he is old enough to think critically before exposing him to indoctrination.

On a tangent, my 4yo daughter asked some doozies at bed time. She is obsessed with animals and people "being made of blood," and asked about her pet fish. Fine. Then she asks what light is made out of. That one had me a little stumped, and she wasn't letting me weasel out. Light waves wasn't acceptable to her.

[P.D.X.]

Light waves wasn't acceptable to her.

Try photons then.

[howard]

Hundreds of Millions of people could have lived better lives, but for the lies. Then again, a few men couldn't have lived nearly as well, so maybe it was a good thing?

Just like our economy of the last three decades.

[The Sybian]

Hundreds of Millions of people could have lived better lives, but for the lies. Then again, a few men couldn't have lived nearly as well, so maybe it was a good thing?

Just like our economy of the last three decades.

That explains the Reagan worship.

[Jerloma]

J-Lo, I love your approach. My almost 7 yo is still gullible as all get out. He still argues with me that there is an episode of Barney (the purple dinosaur) where he kills a boy and goes to jail. A classmate's older brother told her, who in turn told him. This same girl proselytizes all the time to him as well. So far I deflect his comments about Jesus. I will wait until he is old enough to think critically before exposing him to indoctrination.

Yeah, I think the greatest gift that you can give a child is the confidence to just say "I don't fucking know." For as much as we know relative to the people who invented the major monotheistic doctrines...we really still don't know shit. That's the great fuel of progress though, isn't it? Tell a child what to think, and what reason do they have to keep thinking? Teach them how to think, and anything is possible.

Full disclosure though...I have no idea what's going on in this scenario. Is this all tied together?

He still argues with me that there is an episode of Barney (the purple dinosaur) where he kills a boy and goes to jail. A classmate's older brother told her, who in turn told him. This same girl proselytizes all the time to him as well. So far I deflect his comments about Jesus. I will wait until he is old enough to think critically before exposing him to indoctrination.

Wut?

[Johnnie]

I want to see this episode of Barney.

I love you; you love me, my ass. That's one cold muthafucka right there.

[The Sybian]

Full disclosure though...I have no idea what's going on in this scenario. Is this all tied together?

He still argues with me that there is an episode of Barney (the purple dinosaur) where he kills a boy and goes to jail. A classmate's older brother told her, who in turn told him. This same girl proselytizes all the time to him as well. So far I deflect his comments about Jesus. I will wait until he is old enough to think critically before exposing him to indoctrination.

Wut?

My point in that story is that he believes everything he is told, even if it is third party and ridiculous. I told him the Barney story wasn't true, and his response was, "but Megan's brother said it was true!" If that is going to persuade him, a guy on an alter in robes is really going to persuade him, so I think I'll wait to expose him to attending services.

[Jerloma]

Yeah, well that's really the whole reason that the church is so interested in children, isn't it? Get them before they're old enough to be skeptical. Tell them they're depraved. Tell them they're in need of salvation. Tell them they can't be good without you. Tell them you have all the answers. Throw a little fear into the mix. What reason does a child really have to think that these people that their parents have provided with authority over them would be lying to them? They don't know anything power and greed yet.

[howard]

Yeah, well that's really the whole reason that the church is so interested in children, isn't it? Get them before they're old enough to be skeptical. Tell them they're depraved. Tell them they're in need of salvation. Tell them they can't be good without you. Tell them you have all the answers. Throw a little fear into the mix.

Heh. My dad took me to a Billy Graham Crusade once. No, he did not abuse me, then or otherwise. He loved exposing me to a wide variety of things. It was a beautiful day, it was at the LA Coliseum, (my third favorite place in the world at that time, after Dodger Stadium and Disneyland), it was a short walk from home, and it was free. I was eight or nine.

Billy started preaching about H-E-double hockey sticks. About sin. About damnation. I did not like it. I started crying. I said that man was mean and wrong. And I demanded we go home right now, 'cause I wasn't gonna hear any more. I literally covered my ears so I would not have to hear any more negativity.

This seemed to greatly amuse Dad, judging by his frequent re-tellings of this story. I think he got exactly his desired response.

[Jerloma]

I don't really know where to put this but since it's Islamic culture related I guess this will work. Watch this awesome Yemeni kid tear into her parents for trying to marry her off at age 11.

[howard]

She clearly does not understand the principle of not holding a depreciating asset too long. Sell early, mo' money!