2017 NBA Draft

Rush2112 · Post by **Rush2112** » Wed May 17, 2017 12:40 am

Johnnie wrote:LOL @ Brooklyn.

That trade has to be in the discussion for worst ever, right?

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Wed May 17, 2017 6:58 am

Rush2112 wrote:
Johnnie wrote:LOL @ Brooklyn.

That trade has to be in the discussion for worst ever, right?

I'm not sure of a worse trade off the top of my head. I'm trying to think, but the shear amount of assets involved plus how quickly the ones that went to Brooklyn degraded making the future end of it for Boston that much better puts this as an all timer.

And it's still not complete until the Celtics get their #1 next year. Huge laughs from me when the experts* on Reddit NBA came to that realization suddenly.

*read: not experts

Also, Ted Stepien needed to have a rule named after him for trading consecutive 1st rounders without regard. This trade, with that rule in place, found the pick swap "loophole" to allow it to happen. Twists the knife that much more.

But hey, sweet SI cover, bro:

Edit:

The Ricky Williams trade was very, very bad too.

Joe K · Post by **Joe K** » Wed May 17, 2017 7:33 am

At least the other two predictions on that SI turned out pretty well... Another really awful NBA trade that comes to mind is the Clippers throwing in their upcoming #1 pick when they dumped Baron Davis's contract on the Cavs at the 2011 trade deadline. That pick won the lottery for the Cavs, and turned into Kyrie Irving. (The Cavs had the second-worst record in the NBA that season, but their original pick slid to 4th and became Tristan Thompson.) Not only was Kyrie instrumental to the Cavs' title run last year, but I doubt LeBron would've come back without Kyrie in place there. The Pacers trading Kawhi Leonard for George Hill on Draft Day 2011 also turned out to be a terrible trade, although it got decent reviews at the time.

Johnny Carwash · Post by **Johnny Carwash** » Wed May 17, 2017 7:47 am

Rush2112 wrote:That trade has to be in the discussion for worst ever, right?

tennbengal · Post by **tennbengal** » Wed May 17, 2017 8:36 am

Johnny Carwash wrote:
Rush2112 wrote:That trade has to be in the discussion for worst ever, right?

That's awesome.

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Wed May 17, 2017 8:42 am

His on camera reaction...

The replies to that are great.

But look at the graphic that flashed. And then note what the final trade actually was.

http://www.nba.com/nets/news/nets-acqui ... ason-terry

The Brooklyn Nets have acquired Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Jason Terry and D.J. White from the Boston Celtics in exchange for Gerald Wallace, Kris Humphries, MarShon Brooks, Kris Joseph, Keith Bogans and three first round draft picks (2014, 2016 and 2018), as well as the right to swap first round picks in 2017, Nets General Manager Billy King has announced.

So...his excuse holds some water. But he's still wrong a lot of the time with revisionist history firmly in his corner.

Post by **brian** » Wed May 17, 2017 9:51 am

Whoever they pick, hope he doesn't decide to celebrate with some post-draft cocaine.

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Wed May 17, 2017 9:55 am

I mean...Tatum has to be the choice right? Why go with fultz when you've already got a ball dominant point guard? Are you convinced you can make Fultz your two man and roll with two guys who like the ball in their hands? Or are you picking fultz and letting Thomas go when he wants a huge deal?

tennbengal · Post by **tennbengal** » Wed May 17, 2017 10:11 am

A_B wrote:I mean...Tatum has to be the choice right? Why go with fultz when you've already got a ball dominant point guard? Are you convinced you can make Fultz your two man and roll with two guys who like the ball in their hands? Or are you picking fultz and letting Thomas go when he wants a huge deal?

The last part of your query. They may not want to spend $200 million on Thomas and therefore go with Fulz to replace him.

Rex · Post by **Rex** » Wed May 17, 2017 10:19 am

But Tatum figures to be a ball-dominant forward, so I'm not sure that concern over fitting with IT should be the deciding factor. I think no matter what, Boston has some tough decisions to make about Thomas. I would probably lean towards letting him go. Short of acquiring Lebron, you aren't winning the East for another 3-4 years.

HaulCitgo · Post by **HaulCitgo** » Wed May 17, 2017 10:30 am

Dunno about not winning the east for 3-4 years. But IT is fools gold. Id try to move him at the draft and if not, id probably hold and make a decision on a max contract after the 2018 draft. I like Lonzo Ball paired with Bradley/Smart at the 2 but just havent seen Fultz at all. No way you even think about your current roster when drafting. Take the best player period.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Wed May 17, 2017 10:32 am

They've got the potential to have some combination of 2 max guys and 2 top picks between now and next July. You'd have to actually be LeBron to be immune to position overlap on this roster.

Would they be in better shape if the next two draft classes were reversed(tons of versatile bigs in 2018)? Yes.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Wed May 17, 2017 10:47 am

Can't they just trade the Fultz pick for most any versatile big they want?

Joe K · Post by **Joe K** » Wed May 17, 2017 10:48 am

I think Boston would be crazy to let Thomas go. Guys who can score 29 ppg with a 62.5% true shooting percentage don't come along very often. In fact, I believe the only two active players who have ever had a season where they scored as much as Thomas with the same level of efficiency are Curry and Durant. Thomas is definitely a max player, regardless of his defensive shortcomings.

DSafetyGuy · Post by **DSafetyGuy** » Wed May 17, 2017 10:53 am

It's cherry-picking one defensive stat, but Isaiah Thomas ranked 468th out of 468 NBA players in defensive RPM.

He also ranked 40th in the league in wins at 8.07, which is behind luminaries Danilo Gallinari, Ricky Rubio, Robert Covington, Trevor Ariza, Gorgui Dieng, his teammate Jae Crowder, and Otto Porter.

It's very hard for me to imagine Thomas getting a max deal after next season from Boston (or anyone else with a competent front office), especially since turns 29 just before next year's All-Star Game.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Wed May 17, 2017 10:58 am

mister d wrote:Can't they just trade the Fultz pick for most any versatile big they want?

If there was one available, by doing that you're committing to the current Horford-Thomas window while LeBron is still around.

One scenario - trade the pick for George or Butler (neither of whom are said big), sign Hayward and try to win with a damn good starting 5 and a couple remaining bench pieces. Not a bad gamble and you still have next year's pick

Someone said this morning you could trade both picks and someone like Bradley or Crowder and get Anthony Davis

Joe K · Post by **Joe K** » Wed May 17, 2017 11:02 am

DSafetyGuy wrote:It's cherry-picking one defensive stat, but Isaiah Thomas ranked 468th out of 468 NBA players in defensive RPM.

He also ranked 40th in the league in wins at 8.07, which is behind luminaries Danilo Gallinari, Ricky Rubio, Robert Covington, Trevor Ariza, Gorgui Dieng, his teammate Jae Crowder, and Otto Porter.

It's very hard for me to imagine Thomas getting a max deal after next season from Boston (or anyone else with a competent front office), especially since turns 29 just before next year's All-Star Game.

This is where I'd like to point out that as recently as last year, RPM said that Dellevedova was better than Kyrie. So it can be a flawed metric. Thomas is definitely a weak defender but I'm sure his DRPM is skewed by Boston's other guards (Bradley and Smart) both being excellent defenders. Do you really think Thomas is less valuable than any of those guys you listed? The majority of PGs rate poorly in DRPM and, in my opinion, Thomas's offensive brilliance easily outweighs his defensive shortcomings.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Wed May 17, 2017 11:12 am

For some reason, despite watching damn near every Celtics game for 20 years without once seeing a guard who could get to the rim at will and light it up from 3, I'm not attached to Thomas in the slightest. Probably not accurate statistically, but I keep equating him with those random tweener guards in the early 80s who had huge scoring seasons.

If the Celtics added Russell Westbrook (read: possible future Markelle Fultz) at the trade deadline and Isaiah missed the rest of the season, I'd feel pretty good about giving Cleveland a run.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Wed May 17, 2017 11:17 am

Ryan wrote:For some reason, despite watching damn near every Celtics game for 20 years without once seeing a guard who could get to the rim at will and light it up from 3, I'm not attached to Thomas in the slightest.

Yeah, man. Total mystery how a Boston fan could feel this way. Someone call in the detectives to solve this case.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Wed May 17, 2017 12:09 pm

I do hate all things Seattle

HaulCitgo · Post by **HaulCitgo** » Wed May 17, 2017 12:11 pm

Yep. Dude is Vinnie Johnson but because the team isn't great he has the freedom to play like the real Isaiah and wants to be paid like it.

HaulCitgo · Post by **HaulCitgo** » Wed May 17, 2017 12:15 pm

Dana Barros put up some stats too.

Joe K · Post by **Joe K** » Wed May 17, 2017 12:21 pm

HaulCitgo wrote:Dana Barros put up some stats too.

Remind me when Barros was named to the All-NBA 2nd Team, as Thomas will be, while playing on a 53-win team that made the Conference Finals. Thomas is one of the best offensive players in the NBA and the Celtics got markedly better as soon as they traded for him, and you're ready to cast him off? This is total insanity.

Joe K · Post by **Joe K** » Wed May 17, 2017 12:26 pm

HaulCitgo wrote:Yep. Dude is Vinnie Johnson but because the team isn't great he has the freedom to play like the real Isaiah and wants to be paid like it.

By this logic, there's like 3 guys in the entire NBA who "deserve" a big contract. Every team other than Golden State, Cleveland and San Antonio "isn't great," yet plenty of players on other teams have gotten max deals because that's the way the NBA works now.

HaulCitgo · Post by **HaulCitgo** » Wed May 17, 2017 12:50 pm

If cast him off means trading for someone better, then cast him off it is. I wouldnt blow my cap for him because he doesnt impact the defensive side and isnt an off the ball contributor. Same way I wouldnt blow my cap for AI and he isnt AI in any form. Dont get me wrong, I want him to be Vinnie Johnson in Boston. The guy can win you games but he needs to be a 6th man and I cant pay max money for a 6th man.

HaulCitgo · Post by **HaulCitgo** » Wed May 17, 2017 12:55 pm

And I take that Anthony Davis deal all day. In that case I would re-up IT play for a title. Davis/Horford/Brown/Bradley/Thomas is good enough to play straight up with LeBron. No way they offer him for Crowder and the 2 picks. But id do IT and the 18 pick.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Wed May 17, 2017 2:15 pm

What about 1st overall for Carmelo and Noah? That seems like a really good trade.

Johnny Carwash · Post by **Johnny Carwash** » Wed May 17, 2017 2:17 pm

"Lavar Ball won't be a distraction in the pros" = "Trump will start acting presidential once he takes office"

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Wed May 17, 2017 2:23 pm

mister d wrote:What about 1st overall for Carmelo and Noah? That seems like a really good trade.

Nah, son. Porzingis.

Those two dude have ridiculous contracts.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Wed May 17, 2017 2:25 pm

Gotta agree with you on that one!

DSafetyGuy · Post by **DSafetyGuy** » Wed May 17, 2017 2:27 pm

Joe K wrote:
DSafetyGuy wrote:It's cherry-picking one defensive stat, but Isaiah Thomas ranked 468th out of 468 NBA players in defensive RPM.

He also ranked 40th in the league in wins at 8.07, which is behind luminaries Danilo Gallinari, Ricky Rubio, Robert Covington, Trevor Ariza, Gorgui Dieng, his teammate Jae Crowder, and Otto Porter.

It's very hard for me to imagine Thomas getting a max deal after next season from Boston (or anyone else with a competent front office), especially since turns 29 just before next year's All-Star Game.
This is where I'd like to point out that as recently as last year, RPM said that Dellevedova was better than Kyrie. So it can be a flawed metric. Thomas is definitely a weak defender but I'm sure his DRPM is skewed by Boston's other guards (Bradley and Smart) both being excellent defenders. Do you really think Thomas is less valuable than any of those guys you listed? The majority of PGs rate poorly in DRPM and, in my opinion, Thomas's offensive brilliance easily outweighs his defensive shortcomings.

I just think it would be very foolish to give a max contract to someone who contributes on only one end of the floor and will be past the peak of his career, especially because you can get a similar level of production for a lot less money because it comes in a different form.

Right behind Thomas in RPM wins is Jeff Teague, separated by one-hundredth of a win. If Patrick Beverley had played a similar number of games, he would have likely exceeded Thomas' RPM win production (Beverley played 67 games to Thomas' 76). Teague is eight months older than Thomas while Beverley is seven months older. Do either of those players merit a max contract?

On a side note, "RPM takes into account teammates, opponents and additional factors."

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Wed May 17, 2017 2:37 pm

Johnnie wrote:Nah, son. Porzingis.

Like ... "in theory" ... there's something that could be done here w/ a Boston add, right? Probably not with Jackson, but say a new young smart hotshot GM stepped in.

Post by **brian** » Wed May 17, 2017 2:40 pm

Am I crazy or are some of the same people who slag on Westbrook for being a one-way player going out of their way to praise Thomas.

Joe K · Post by **Joe K** » Wed May 17, 2017 3:09 pm

brian wrote:Am I crazy or are some of the same people who slag on Westbrook for being a one-way player going out of their way to praise Thomas.

I've been a Westbrook skeptic but there is no doubt whatsoever that he's a max contract player. And the same is true of Thomas. The fact that a guard is a one-way player doesn't mean they can't deserve a max contract if they are as good offensively as Thomas is. Defense is way more important for big men who have to protect the rim than for point guards.

Joe K · Post by **Joe K** » Wed May 17, 2017 3:13 pm

DSafetyGuy wrote:
Joe K wrote:
DSafetyGuy wrote:It's cherry-picking one defensive stat, but Isaiah Thomas ranked 468th out of 468 NBA players in defensive RPM.

He also ranked 40th in the league in wins at 8.07, which is behind luminaries Danilo Gallinari, Ricky Rubio, Robert Covington, Trevor Ariza, Gorgui Dieng, his teammate Jae Crowder, and Otto Porter.

It's very hard for me to imagine Thomas getting a max deal after next season from Boston (or anyone else with a competent front office), especially since turns 29 just before next year's All-Star Game.
This is where I'd like to point out that as recently as last year, RPM said that Dellevedova was better than Kyrie. So it can be a flawed metric. Thomas is definitely a weak defender but I'm sure his DRPM is skewed by Boston's other guards (Bradley and Smart) both being excellent defenders. Do you really think Thomas is less valuable than any of those guys you listed? The majority of PGs rate poorly in DRPM and, in my opinion, Thomas's offensive brilliance easily outweighs his defensive shortcomings.
I just think it would be very foolish to give a max contract to someone who contributes on only one end of the floor and will be past the peak of his career, especially because you can get a similar level of production for a lot less money because it comes in a different form.

Right behind Thomas in RPM wins is Jeff Teague, separated by one-hundredth of a win. If Patrick Beverley had played a similar number of games, he would have likely exceeded Thomas' RPM win production (Beverley played 67 games to Thomas' 76). Teague is eight months older than Thomas while Beverley is seven months older. Do either of those players merit a max contract?

On a side note, "RPM takes into account teammates, opponents and additional factors."

The fact that RPM rates Teague and Beverley as comparable to Thomas is pretty good evidence that it's a flawed metric. Again, the creator of RPM, Jerry Engelmann, said after last year's Finals, that the Cavs should trade Kyrie because he wasn't as good as Delly. That's about as big an indictment of the merits of taking RPM at face value as I can think of.

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Wed May 17, 2017 3:18 pm

The wall just got 10 feet taller. Or a zillion, rather.

LaVar Ball wants $3B for shoe deal, sees no need to market to women

"Now that Lonzo's headed to Los Angeles, what they should have done is give me a billion dollars and let me be on my way."

This dude. Yikes.

Edit:

Oh, come the fuck on...

Post by **Shirley** » Wed May 17, 2017 4:43 pm

"give me a billion dollars"

Yeah, I'm pretty sure they're more interested in your son.

As for Isaiah Thomas, I think he's great and worthy of mention among the best players in the league, but his age has to be a big concern. To succeed at 5'9", he has to be quick and aggressive as well. Any loss of speed or quickness will torpedo his career in a hurry. That said, I don't think Tatum would be a bad choice. He's immensely talented and would fit in on that team right away.

sancarlos · Post by **sancarlos** » Wed May 17, 2017 5:34 pm

DaveInSeattle · Post by **DaveInSeattle** » Wed May 17, 2017 6:40 pm

Ryan wrote:I do hate all things Seattle

Easy there....

Joe K · Post by **Joe K** » Wed May 17, 2017 6:50 pm

DaveInSeattle wrote:
Ryan wrote:I do hate all things Seattle
Easy there....

If the Celtics draft Fultz, they'll have quite a number of Pacific Northwest ties between him, Thomas, Bradley and Olynyk. They were saying during the Draft Lottery show that Thomas and Jamal Crawford have played pickup games with Fultz back in the Sea-Tac area, and are convinced he could be a superstar caliber player.