Mother Fucking Nazis and the presidents who ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ them

[brian]

Don't these guys espouse a love of America first? Yet the statues that are in dispute are of traitors who tried to destroy the country.

Help me understand this.

There is no understanding it. The mainstream of the Republican Party is morally bankrupt and don't care a shit about the statues except as a wedge to sow distrust and hatred of people of color and liberals.

[Gunpowder]

Don't these guys espouse a love of America first? Yet the statues that are in dispute are of traitors who tried to destroy the country.

Help me understand this.

There is no understanding it. The mainstream of the Republican Party is morally bankrupt and don't care a shit about the statues except as a wedge to sow distrust and hatred of people of color and liberals.

The only reason I agree with this sentiment, and I mean only reason, is because MOTHERFUCKERS ARE ON RECORD AS HAVING SAID JUST THAT IT WHEN THEY MADE THE FUCKIN LAWS.

[Gunpowder]

And I agree with DSafe, the Jeffries segment was really good.

I don't get why some of these real men are so afraid of getting beat up by snowflake beta-cucks, many of whom have likely ironically lost their wives to other dudes. I guess maybe they were scarred by the iron-fisted reign of mom-jean wearing pusstyrant Obama.

[Pruitt]

I understand the Republican's embrace of this issue and these morons.

I just meant that isn;t the worship of these symbols, well, anti-American?

[brian]

I understand the Republican's embrace of this issue and these morons.

I just meant that isn;t the worship of these symbols, well, anti-American?

You would think. And you'd further think that at worst, it would just be a southern thing, which I could almost, maybe, sort of understand. So the embrace of these symbols by mainstream Republicans from the rest of the country is mystifying, but not really completely surprising when you look at the history of the GOP (Southern Strategy, dog whistles, etc.)

[Joe K]

I understand the Republican's embrace of this issue and these morons.

I just meant that isn;t the worship of these symbols, well, anti-American?

You would think. And you'd further think that at worst, it would just be a southern thing, which I could almost, maybe, sort of understand. So the embrace of these symbols by mainstream Republicans from the rest of the country is mystifying, but not really completely surprising when you look at the history of the GOP (Southern Strategy, dog whistles, etc.)

Yep. It makes perfect sense if you factor in how deeply ingrained white supremacy is in American history and how many right-wingers don't view racial minorities as fully "American."

[wlu_lax6]

Life was easier when schools were just numbered..
https://www.arlnow.com/2017/08/17/lette ... gh-school/

[Steve of phpBB]

I understand the Republican's embrace of this issue and these morons.

I just meant that isn;t the worship of these symbols, well, anti-American?

You would think. And you'd further think that at worst, it would just be a southern thing, which I could almost, maybe, sort of understand. So the embrace of these symbols by mainstream Republicans from the rest of the country is mystifying, but not really completely surprising when you look at the history of the GOP (Southern Strategy, dog whistles, etc.)

Yep. It makes perfect sense if you factor in how deeply ingrained white supremacy is in American history and how many right-wingers don't view racial minorities as fully "American."

I think this is the right angle. They have a sense of a "true America," which has not been bastardized by the inclusion of minorities etc. The real-life on-the-ground America is warped, in their view. So it is not disloyal for them to fight against the real-life America.

Also, the whole "treason" angle is overblown. Some of our favorite heroes are traitors. All of the Founding Fathers (and mothers). Dissidents in the Soviet Union. Members of the resistance in Germany during the war. To me, the Confederate heroes are bad not because they were traitors, but because they were traitors in the cause of slavery.

Folks like Washington committed treason to expand freedom and self-determination. They didn't expand it as far as we would like, since they kept slaves and did not allow women to vote. But they expanded freedom nonetheless, making further expansions possible. But Lee and Stonewall Jackson committed treason to restrict freedom and self-determination. So yeah, it's fun to call them traitors, but that isn't really the point.

[Jerloma]

Don't these guys espouse a love of America first? Yet the statues that are in dispute are of traitors who tried to destroy the country.

Help me understand this.

How they think it's compatible with patriotism? It's because their dumb rednecks with the critical thinking skills of a wombat.

[Joe K]

Don't these guys espouse a love of America first? Yet the statues that are in dispute are of traitors who tried to destroy the country.

Help me understand this.

How they think it's compatible with patriotism? It's because their dumb rednecks with the critical thinking skills of a wombat.

I know you're just being glib, but I wish it were as simple as a lack of education. A lot of prominent white supremacists are from affluent backgrounds and attended really good schools. Spencer and Miller went to Duke; Bannon is a very wealthy Harvard Business School grad; and the guy who organized the Charlottesville march is a UVA grad. The Charlottesville murderer is also from a fairly affluent Cincinnati suburb. So it's not like these are all dumb rednecks.

[degenerasian]

Crazy to think that a violent protest in an American city is bringing down the Canadian Breitbart
https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/201 ... arper.html

[Jerloma]

Don't these guys espouse a love of America first? Yet the statues that are in dispute are of traitors who tried to destroy the country.

Help me understand this.

How they think it's compatible with patriotism? It's because their dumb rednecks with the critical thinking skills of a wombat.

I know you're just being glib, but I wish it were as simple as a lack of education. A lot of prominent white supremacists are from affluent backgrounds and attended really good schools. Spencer and Miller went to Duke; Bannon is a very wealthy Harvard Business School grad; and the guy who organized the Charlottesville march is a UVA grad. The Charlottesville murderer is also from a fairly affluent Cincinnati suburb. So it's not like these are all dumb rednecks.

I think you can be educated and still be dumb. There's a major difference between intelligence and intellectual honesty.

[Shirley]

Don't these guys espouse a love of America first? Yet the statues that are in dispute are of traitors who tried to destroy the country.

Help me understand this.

The racism angle is easily understood, so I'll skip that.

The other part is simply regional pride. I think most people are proud of, or at least have some attachment to wherever we were born or grew up. If you're somewhere else and you run into someone from your hometown, it makes you happy and the two of you talk about things you have in common.

While the south seceded from the US and technically were traitors to the US, they were still citizens of those states. I grew up in Virginia. My kids are growing up in North Carolina. That's part of our identity. We're southerners. The confederates literally fought a war over being southerners. Yes, it was mostly about slavery, but regionalism was a factor as well. The vast majority of people who fought didn't own slaves. The fought because their home was at war, just like soldiers in WWII or Vietnam.

Then you can add in the fact that the south has always been the poorer part of the country. Not as wealthy, fancy, or important as the north. If anything southern showed up on TV or in the movies, it was mostly likely being mocked. That creates a pretty deep sense of Fuck You to the rest of the country. Those roots run deep.

[duff]

Don't these guys espouse a love of America first? Yet the statues that are in dispute are of traitors who tried to destroy the country.

Help me understand this.

The racism angle is easily understood, so I'll skip that.

The other part is simply regional pride. I think most people are proud of, or at least have some attachment to wherever we were born or grew up. If you're somewhere else and you run into someone from your hometown, it makes you happy and the two of you talk about things you have in common.

While the south seceded from the US and technically were traitors to the US, they were still citizens of those states. I grew up in Virginia. My kids are growing up in North Carolina. That's part of our identity. We're southerners. The confederates literally fought a war over being southerners. Yes, it was mostly about slavery, but regionalism was a factor as well. The vast majority of people who fought didn't own slaves. The fought because their home was at war, just like soldiers in WWII or Vietnam.

Then you can add in the fact that the south has always been the poorer part of the country. Not as wealthy, fancy, or important as the north. If anything southern showed up on TV or in the movies, it was mostly likely being mocked. That creates a pretty deep sense of Fuck You to the rest of the country. Those roots run deep.

Only to a degree. I would guess that most of those marching were not from the South. But then again, there are times we have to move on from our ugly history and flaunt it and believe that it is the best thing ever. There is a difference from being a Southerner and being a dipshit racist.

I knew a guy that after we graduated high school he got a tattoo of the confederate flag with the words "the South is gonna rise again". I called him out on it as to why he got it. He said he just liked it and thought it was cool looking. I proceeded to call him a fucking liar and haven't talked to him since. No lose on my part. The dumbass has never lived outside of central Indiana.

[Pruitt]

Don't these guys espouse a love of America first? Yet the statues that are in dispute are of traitors who tried to destroy the country.

Help me understand this.

The racism angle is easily understood, so I'll skip that.

The other part is simply regional pride. I think most people are proud of, or at least have some attachment to wherever we were born or grew up. If you're somewhere else and you run into someone from your hometown, it makes you happy and the two of you talk about things you have in common.

While the south seceded from the US and technically were traitors to the US, they were still citizens of those states. I grew up in Virginia. My kids are growing up in North Carolina. That's part of our identity. We're southerners. The confederates literally fought a war over being southerners. Yes, it was mostly about slavery, but regionalism was a factor as well. The vast majority of people who fought didn't own slaves. The fought because their home was at war, just like soldiers in WWII or Vietnam.

Then you can add in the fact that the south has always been the poorer part of the country. Not as wealthy, fancy, or important as the north. If anything southern showed up on TV or in the movies, it was mostly likely being mocked. That creates a pretty deep sense of Fuck You to the rest of the country. Those roots run deep.

Thanks for this. I kind of thought that this was the case, but you've explained it well.

The "fuck you" to the rest of the country - in the context that you give - kind of makes sense.

[sancarlos]

That's awesome. Like the scene in In & Out where everyone in the auditorium is gay.

Or, for the older folks, like "I am Spartacus!"

[P.D.X.]

That's awesome. Like the scene in In & Out where everyone in the auditorium is gay.

Or, for the older folks, like "I am Spartacus!"

Just like in the movie! (lol)

[Shirley]

I would guess that most of those marching were not from the South.

Yeah, for those guys, it was 98% racism. But there are a TON of otherwise not racist (at least no more than any of us) southerners who feel some pride in those confederate monuments. As a young country, we don't have that much history. For the vast majority of towns in the south (hell, the north too), the Civil War was by far the most significant event in their history.

Take Richmond as an example. Remove it's pride in one time being the capital of the confederacy (ostensibly a pretty significant country), and what history does it have to go on? If you don't know what it signifies to many people, Monument Avenue in Richmond is really pretty and impressive. But ... there's no getting around the negative aspects of those monuments. They need to figure out some way to deal with that.

One more thing about that - I think an argument can be made that Richmond should have some confederate statues. At least there was real history and relevance there. Durham, Charlottesville, and most other southern towns with monuments don't have that kind of specific claim. Those monuments are about 85% due to racism.

[brian]

I would guess that most of those marching were not from the South.

Yeah, for those guys, it was 98% racism. But there are a TON of otherwise not racist (at least no more than any of us) southerners who feel some pride in those confederate monuments. As a young country, we don't have that much history. For the vast majority of towns in the south (hell, the north too), the Civil War was by far the most significant event in their history.

Take Richmond as an example. Remove it's pride in one time being the capital of the confederacy (ostensibly a pretty significant country), and what history does it have to go on? If you don't know what it signifies to many people, Monument Avenue in Richmond is really pretty and impressive. But ... there's no getting around the negative aspects of those monuments. They need to figure out some way to deal with that.

One more thing about that - I think an argument can be made that Richmond should have some confederate statues. At least there was real history and relevance there. Durham, Charlottesville, and most other southern towns with monuments don't have that kind of specific claim. Those monuments are about 85% due to racism.

I think the solution is pretty easy. Relocate the monuments to private lands or a museum of some kind. That's what Budapest did after the Iron Curtain fell. The museum/park (it's in a park but I'm pretty sure it's a "private" park) is pretty badass too.

[bfj]

That's awesome. Like the scene in In & Out where everyone in the auditorium is gay.

Or, for the older folks, like "I am Spartacus!"

I AM RADIO REBEL!!! #disneychannel

[EnochRoot]

Don't these guys espouse a love of America first? Yet the statues that are in dispute are of traitors who tried to destroy the country.

Help me understand this.

The racism angle is easily understood, so I'll skip that.

The other part is simply regional pride. I think most people are proud of, or at least have some attachment to wherever we were born or grew up. If you're somewhere else and you run into someone from your hometown, it makes you happy and the two of you talk about things you have in common.

While the south seceded from the US and technically were traitors to the US, they were still citizens of those states. I grew up in Virginia. My kids are growing up in North Carolina. That's part of our identity. We're southerners. The confederates literally fought a war over being southerners. Yes, it was mostly about slavery, but regionalism was a factor as well. The vast majority of people who fought didn't own slaves. The fought because their home was at war, just like soldiers in WWII or Vietnam.

Then you can add in the fact that the south has always been the poorer part of the country. Not as wealthy, fancy, or important as the north. If anything southern showed up on TV or in the movies, it was mostly likely being mocked. That creates a pretty deep sense of Fuck You to the rest of the country. Those roots run deep.

All the points you just made are some of the main reasons as to why the generals along with the CSA president Jefferson Davis should've been hung in their home town squares. The fact they weren't allowed for the continued disrespect the south has shown the United States of America since.

[EnochRoot]

Don't these guys espouse a love of America first? Yet the statues that are in dispute are of traitors who tried to destroy the country.

Help me understand this.

How they think it's compatible with patriotism? It's because their dumb rednecks with the critical thinking skills of a wombat.

I know you're just being glib, but I wish it were as simple as a lack of education. A lot of prominent white supremacists are from affluent backgrounds and attended really good schools. Spencer and Miller went to Duke; Bannon is a very wealthy Harvard Business School grad; and the guy who organized the Charlottesville march is a UVA grad. The Charlottesville murderer is also from a fairly affluent Cincinnati suburb. So it's not like these are all dumb rednecks.

I think you can be educated and still be dumb. There's a major difference between intelligence and intellectual honesty.

The intellectual dishonesty going on in the United States right about now is off the fucking charts.

[Giff]

I know this is the whole point of this idiocy, but it's so infuriating white people tell blacks to forget slavery because that's in the past and no one's a slave now, but how dare anyone tell them to forget their past.

[Sabo]

https://twitter.com/NewYorker/status/898270023537508353

[Rex]

I have lived in the South for a long time and I do not know anybody who takes pride in Confederate monuments. For the most part, people don't notice them or care about them if they do notice them. But one thing does make them care, and that's people shaming them. I'm not saying that this makes it a bad idea to shame them (personally I think it is a good idea to do that), just trying to explain the mentality.

[Giff]

I have lived in the South for a long time and I do not know anybody who takes pride in Confederate monuments. For the most part, people don't notice them or care about them if they do notice them. But one thing does make them care, and that's people shaming them. I'm not saying that this makes it a bad idea to shame them (personally I think it is a good idea to do that), just trying to explain the mentality.

Yup.

https://twitter.com/CoreyStewartVA/stat ... 4907367424

[Joe K]

I have lived in the South for a long time and I do not know anybody who takes pride in Confederate monuments. For the most part, people don't notice them or care about them if they do notice them. But one thing does make them care, and that's people shaming them. I'm not saying that this makes it a bad idea to shame them (personally I think it is a good idea to do that), just trying to explain the mentality.

I honestly wonder how much of the reaction is really shame as opposed to just latent white resentment. The St. Louis mayor removed a Confederate monument from the big public park earlier this summer and there was a big hubbub about it. The monument itself was barely noticeable, and Missouri wasn't even a Confederate state. Yet a lot of people -- most of which likely weren't from a true Southern state or descended from any Confederate soldiers or anything -- bitched about its removal, despite not having any personal reason to feel offended or shamed. I think that was most likely latent anger from the Ferguson protests, and the idea that we were doing too much to accommodate the "thugs" in Black Lives Matter.

[Rex]

Yup.

https://twitter.com/CoreyStewartVA/stat ... 4907367424

Now that guy is talking some sense! I'll have to give him a follow.

I have a concentric circles view of the South, not unlike Dante's vision of hell. The one in the middle--the Klan types--should get no attention at all. There are literally only hundreds or thousands of them left. The SPLC estimates national Klan membership at 7,000. In the outer circles (which number in the millions), you have people who can and should be talked to. But I'm afraid our friend from the Commonwealth has a point--even the folks in the outer circles feel a pull back towards the center when a Yankee starts talking.

Peel the onion, and make it a Vidalia please.

[Joe K]

Corey Stewart is odious; and he's not even a Southerner.

Stewart was fired by the Trump campaign in October of last year, for, as he put it, standing up against “establishment pukes” at the Republican National Committee. He was canned after taking part in a protest outside the committee’s headquarters as part of a warning to the RNC not to abandon Trump after the Access Hollywood tape came out. At the time, Stewart staunchly defended Trump’s admitting to groping women on tape, saying he had “acted like a frat boy, as a lot of guys do.”

Stewart went on to call his opponent in the gubernatorial race a “cuckservative” during a Reddit AMA (Ask Me Anything) session in which he also said he thought Bill Clinton was a rapist. . . .

Stewart, born in Minnesota, attempted to capitalize in recent weeks on the city of Charlottesville’s plan to remove a statue of Confederate Gen. Robert E. Lee from a local park. “Nothing is worse than a Yankee telling a Southerner that his monuments don’t matter,” Stewart tweeted in April. It gained him notoriety and subsequently a group of torch-wielding protesters, including white nationalist Richard Spencer, protested the planned removal.

[Giff]

Just to be clear, I was posting that Tweet to make fun of him.

[Joe K]

Just to be clear, I was posting that Tweet to make fun of him.

Right; and the reason I brought up the monument issue we had in St. Louis, which isn't even a Southern state, is because I really don't think this is about resistance to "Yankees" bossing around Southerners. Anyone think that the people defending these monuments would be any more receptive to arguments from bona fide Southerners like Jimmy Carter, John Lewis, or MLK's kids?

[sancarlos]

https://twitter.com/bethanyshondark/sta ... 3958936577

[Shirley]

I have lived in the South for a long time and I do not know anybody who takes pride in Confederate monuments. For the most part, people don't notice them or care about them if they do notice them. But one thing does make them care, and that's people shaming them. I'm not saying that this makes it a bad idea to shame them (personally I think it is a good idea to do that), just trying to explain the mentality.

I honestly wonder how much of the reaction is really shame as opposed to just latent white resentment. The St. Louis mayor removed a Confederate monument from the big public park earlier this summer and there was a big hubbub about it. The monument itself was barely noticeable, and Missouri wasn't even a Confederate state. Yet a lot of people -- most of which likely weren't from a true Southern state or descended from any Confederate soldiers or anything -- bitched about its removal, despite not having any personal reason to feel offended or shamed. I think that was most likely latent anger from the Ferguson protests, and the idea that we were doing too much to accommodate the "thugs" in Black Lives Matter.

I actually think a bigger reason for folks who seemingly shouldn't care is this issue has very clearly been framed as liberal/Democrats vs conservatives/Republicans. And once that line is drawn - and it seems like it always is on every issue these days - it no longer matters whether an issue "should" matter to one side or the other. I think the vast majority of Americans have picked their team and greatly resist anything their team is against.

I guarantee there are Fox News watchers all across the country who are now outraged about taking down Confederate monuments regardless of how they otherwise feel about the south.

[degenerasian]

What about street names? or even city names?

In East Germany first they had kaiser street names, then nazi street names, then western street names and now commie street names. When it went back to western in 1990 they were too lazy to switch back.

i'm sure there are many Robert E Lee streets.

[Steve of phpBB]

I have lived in the South for a long time and I do not know anybody who takes pride in Confederate monuments. For the most part, people don't notice them or care about them if they do notice them. But one thing does make them care, and that's people shaming them. I'm not saying that this makes it a bad idea to shame them (personally I think it is a good idea to do that), just trying to explain the mentality.

I honestly wonder how much of the reaction is really shame as opposed to just latent white resentment. The St. Louis mayor removed a Confederate monument from the big public park earlier this summer and there was a big hubbub about it. The monument itself was barely noticeable, and Missouri wasn't even a Confederate state. Yet a lot of people -- most of which likely weren't from a true Southern state or descended from any Confederate soldiers or anything -- bitched about its removal, despite not having any personal reason to feel offended or shamed. I think that was most likely latent anger from the Ferguson protests, and the idea that we were doing too much to accommodate the "thugs" in Black Lives Matter.

Think of how angry people get at the thought of the Washington NFL team changing their name. It's bad enough that we can't say "n----r" anymore. And we can't tell Polack jokes anymore. And we can't grab women's asses walking down the hallway anymore.

Woe is us.

[Joe K]

I have lived in the South for a long time and I do not know anybody who takes pride in Confederate monuments. For the most part, people don't notice them or care about them if they do notice them. But one thing does make them care, and that's people shaming them. I'm not saying that this makes it a bad idea to shame them (personally I think it is a good idea to do that), just trying to explain the mentality.

I honestly wonder how much of the reaction is really shame as opposed to just latent white resentment. The St. Louis mayor removed a Confederate monument from the big public park earlier this summer and there was a big hubbub about it. The monument itself was barely noticeable, and Missouri wasn't even a Confederate state. Yet a lot of people -- most of which likely weren't from a true Southern state or descended from any Confederate soldiers or anything -- bitched about its removal, despite not having any personal reason to feel offended or shamed. I think that was most likely latent anger from the Ferguson protests, and the idea that we were doing too much to accommodate the "thugs" in Black Lives Matter.

I actually think a bigger reason for folks who seemingly shouldn't care is this issue has very clearly been framed as liberal/Democrats vs conservatives/Republicans. And once that line is drawn - and it seems like it always is on every issue these days - it no longer matters whether an issue "should" matter to one side or the other. I think the vast majority of Americans have picked their team and greatly resist anything their team is against.

I guarantee there are Fox News watchers all across the country who are now outraged about taking down Confederate monuments regardless of how they otherwise feel about the south.

The flipside to this is that very recent public opinion polling shows that 62% of adults oppose removing the monuments. That's a much higher percentage of people than are Republicans, Trump voters, or Fox viewers. I suspect a lot of it could be explained by white people who vote Democratic but feel uncomfortable "accommodating" or "making concessions to" black people and/or leftist activists.

[Jerloma]

Tina Fey at 13:15...awesome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDxxo8Tg5p8

[Johnnie]

https://twitter.com/CoreyStewartVA/stat ... 4907367424

Slavery. Slavery is worse. But I get his attitude.

As a Yankee, who was literally told "Yankee go home" while living in Louisiana and Mississippi, I got to see how people from the south react around people from the north and visa versa.

The most I knew of the south while growing up was what I learned in school, what stereotypes I saw on television, and so forth. My mom lived in Texas for a time, but that is a different flavor of the south. I had an inkling about differences, but not a lot. I just knew the food was delicious.

What I learned was that we Northern elitest types, usually liberal and most certainly know-it-all, just immediately dismiss southerners. Their culture, their ideas, their way of life..etc. And that in turn makes southerners dismiss us right back, but with a bit more of an edge. And it devolves from there.

Though once you deploy with everyone and you see each other every single day and chat and work and hang out, you realize it's just a regional difference. I'm now going to learn more about hunting and fishing and local cuisine and, holy shit, college football than ever before. And they'll learn about, well whatever boring elitest stuff we like like gentrification of cities or reading or some shit.

When elitest Obama the Kenyan Muslim socialist said, "They get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations," he's stating a fact. But it's that he's stating that fact so in turn he's demonizing because he's already the demon and this further proves his demonhood.

But it's fucking true. Disagreement with a northerner, "Yankee go home. We don't need your elitest liberal anti god and gun attitude here!" I dealt with that. Being disregarded due to my experiences and opinions. But it goes both ways, and that's what I learned in those moments. That's what they feel they're already experiencing before they've met a northerner. You have to prove you aren't like the rest.

The problem is the identity most southerners have revolves around things that have been made taboo by an outside entity who knows better than you. And when you've lived your life going along and experience it and you've done nothing wrong, it's an attack on you as a person. So you find common ground in an outlet like Fox News and bam! Those evil others are wrong! You're right! Believe us, we're all college educated elitests who live in New York and make multi millions a year, but we agree with you. Seems very cult like.

That's my 2 cents.

[Steve of phpBB]

In all honesty, the resistance Southerners feel to being told what to do by Yankees is completely understandable.

However, there is also a large group of Southerners left out of this analysis - the descendants of slavery's victims. In the abstract, I have no problem with Southerners wanting to remember a significant time in their past, or people in Richmond remembering when they were the capital of a purported country. But it is appalling that the black residents of the South have to see every day the glorification of slavery and the folks who tried to perpetuate it.

Someone upthread made the point that most of the soldiers who fought for the South did not own slaves and were fighting solely out of a sense of duty to their peers (or under threat of violence). Which is a legitimate point. But (I'm genuinely curious), how many of the monuments are to those guys, versus the generals and politicians and other aristocrats?

[Rex]

There's one other thing about the South that I need to be absolutely clear about, and that is that grits are disgusting.