Breaking Bad

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:46 am

Wait, you still saw Walt as the protagonist after he poisoned Brock? Or after he took the kid's body that Todd shot after the train heist and threw it in a vat of hydrochloric acid?

Post by **brian** » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:49 am

Jerloma wrote:Wait, you still saw Walt as the protagonist after he poisoned Brock? Or after he took the kid's body that Todd shot after the train heist and threw it in a vat of hydrochloric acid?

But many (most) viewers are still rooting for Walt in some ways. Even though you knew the last 8 episodes wasn't going to be him and Skyler getting to spend all their money, after everything that happened it's hard not to root for him at times.

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:09 am

brian wrote:
Jerloma wrote:Wait, you still saw Walt as the protagonist after he poisoned Brock? Or after he took the kid's body that Todd shot after the train heist and threw it in a vat of hydrochloric acid?
But many (most) viewers are still rooting for Walt in some ways. Even though you knew the last 8 episodes wasn't going to be him and Skyler getting to spend all their money, after everything that happened it's hard not to root for him at times.

Yeah, I guess when someone owns a role like that, it doesn't matter what they do...you're already on their side. It's like the way you have to root for Michael Corleone.

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:11 am

Jerloma wrote:Wait, you still saw Walt as the protagonist after he poisoned Brock? Or after he took the kid's body that Todd shot after the train heist and threw it in a vat of hydrochloric acid?

Protagonist doesn't imply good guy. He's still the main character.

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:17 am

Freddy Kruger is the main character in Nightmare on Elm Street. You wouldn't call him the protagonist.

Rams Fanny · Post by **Rams Fanny** » Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:37 am

My thoughts on a few different things:
Mexican Restaurant: This show loves to mirror (call-back) scenes. I took this scene to be a mirror of when Walt used to go see Gus. Walt used to be the frustrated, upset party and Gus used to calmly explain how things were going to work. Now Walt's in charge and he calmly explains (and ultimately shows through the video) that HE will be the one in charge and it will be done HIS way. I thought the waiter was a clear nod to Office Space but also mirrored how the help had no idea how powerful their customers were or what was going on in front of them (counter help at Gus' s place). Actually wait staff come in frequently at inappropriate moments (Walt/Lydia, Skyler/Hank, Todd/Uncle).
Desert scene: Another great mirror, this time within a scene. Jesse starts his monologue telling Walt he doesn't want him to pull the 'concerned dad' bit but in the end that's exactly what he does. As far as the actor's performance goes he conveyed frustration, anger, desperation, defiance, the desire to be left alone, the need to be loved, the need to for once have the upper hand while knowing this is once again part of a plan he doesn't understand, and finally resignation in under 90 seconds. Acting.
Jeese/house: I think Jesse will realizes just doing damage to his property isn't enough because really anyone could burn the place down but that wouldn't bring the fear and intimidation Jesse wants him to have. He wants Walt to feel hunted, desperate, and not in control....like he has. We know 'Heisenberg' gets spray painted on the wall of the house so I think he would rather convey to Walt that he'll never fully be in charge or safe. I have no idea where it goes from there but I like the idea of Flynn coming in.

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:21 am

Jerloma wrote:Freddy Kruger is the main character in Nightmare on Elm Street. You wouldn't call him the protagonist.

Well, in each iteration of NOES, there is a new protagonist, yes. Freddy happens to be consistent across all of them making him the main character by default, but I believe in each case he ends up losing. Admittedly I haven't watched the last couple of installments.

Antagonists exist only because of the presence of a protagonist. If Walt doesn't break bad, then there's no need for Hank. Or Tuco. Or Skyler. Or whomever. You are confusing the word antagonize with the dramatic principle of antagonist. Yes, Walt does some antagonizing things by definition. That does not make him the antagonist.

If you really want to argue that Walter White is not the protagonist of Breaking Bad, I'm pretty sure that I will go full Jerloma-on-irony mode, because you will be epically wrong no matter what your argument entails.

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:34 am

Hey, quit being a dick. I don't claim to be an authority on this shit...just asking some questions. I thought it was a relative term. Like, if you get to the point where you want Hank to die, doesn't he cease to be your protagonist?

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:34 am

The best way to look at Walt might be as an "anti-villain." At the outset, He didn't really have all of the characteristics that we have come to expect in our villains, though, like the anti-hero who develops morality (or whatever) despite his initial inclinations, Walt went the other way.

Post by **Shirley** » Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:49 am

Jerloma wrote:Hey, quit being a dick. I don't claim to be an authority on this shit...just asking some questions. I thought it was a relative term. Like, if you get to the point where you want Hank to die, doesn't he cease to be your protagonist?

No, a protagonist doesn't imply good or bad. The protagonist is simply the main character in the story. In the vast majority of stories out there, the protagonist is the "good guy" and we like him/her.

Part of what makes Breaking Bad interesting is that the protagonist changes over time and we sort of change with him. We like Walt. We want him to win, but yet he keeps doing these awful things. So, in essence, we are breaking bad as well, because we finds ways to justify our sticking by him. We learned to like this nebbish school teacher who took an extreme chance to try to give his family a way to survive his death. And now we are rooting for (I think) a complete fucking sociopath who will bulldoze anyone who stands in his way.

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:52 am

Shirley wrote:
Jerloma wrote:Hey, quit being a dick. I don't claim to be an authority on this shit...just asking some questions. I thought it was a relative term. Like, if you get to the point where you want Hank to die, doesn't he cease to be your protagonist?
No, a protagonist doesn't imply good or bad. The protagonist is simply the main character in the story. In the vast majority of stories out there, the protagonist is the "good guy" and we like him/her.

Part of what makes Breaking Bad interesting is that the protagonist changes over time and we sort of change with him. We like Walt. We want him to win, but yet he keeps doing these awful things. So, in essence, we are breaking bad as well, because we finds ways to justify our sticking by him. We learned to like this nebbish school teacher who took an extreme chance to try to give his family a way to survive his death. And now we are rooting for (I think) a complete fucking sociopath who will bulldoze anyone who stands in his way.

Why you gotta be a dick, Rerun?

howard · Post by **howard** » Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:54 am

Shirley wrote:Lastly, I wonder what stops Jesse. We know he doesn't actually burn the house down. Does he flinch before lighting the match? Does Flynn come in on him? Does Hank come in on him (remember, Hank went for "a walk")?

Hank, yes. He quickly told Gomez, his second-in-command at the DEA office to take the men off the following Jessie detail. 'Cuz he could/would follow Jessie himself.

Giff · Post by **Giff** » Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:00 pm

Gomez! A complete turd on an otherwise near-perfectly acted show. He's just awful.

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:06 pm

AB_skin_test wrote:
Shirley wrote:
Jerloma wrote:Hey, quit being a dick. I don't claim to be an authority on this shit...just asking some questions. I thought it was a relative term. Like, if you get to the point where you want Hank to die, doesn't he cease to be your protagonist?
No, a protagonist doesn't imply good or bad. The protagonist is simply the main character in the story. In the vast majority of stories out there, the protagonist is the "good guy" and we like him/her.

Part of what makes Breaking Bad interesting is that the protagonist changes over time and we sort of change with him. We like Walt. We want him to win, but yet he keeps doing these awful things. So, in essence, we are breaking bad as well, because we finds ways to justify our sticking by him. We learned to like this nebbish school teacher who took an extreme chance to try to give his family a way to survive his death. And now we are rooting for (I think) a complete fucking sociopath who will bulldoze anyone who stands in his way.
Why you gotta be a dick, Rerun?

Because he can answer me without acting as if I'm challenging his intellect?

Yeah Dave...so it's basically like the Tony Soprano thing. What is a good example of a protagonist that we root against vehemently? Like a Mike Myers type of thing?

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:08 pm

You'll have to forgive me if it isn't my fault you're being especially sensitive today.

I guess you didn't notice that rerun said THE EXACT same thing I did earlier.

Post by **Shirley** » Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:16 pm

Jerloma wrote:What is a good example of a protagonist that we root against vehemently? Like a Mike Myers type of thing?

Tough question. In those horror series, there was usually a different protagonist in the early films (e.g. Jamie Lee Curtis in Halloween). Eventually, they became all about the killer, but by then people were probably pulling for him anyway.

A real protagonist we cheer against? ... I'm sure there are some, but I'm drawing a blank. The best example I can think of is from a book, not a movie - Ignatius J Reilly from A Confederacy of Dunces. He was impossible to like.

I think the problem is rooted deep in human nature. We can't help but divide by Us and Them. By definition, the protagonist is pretty much always part of Us. So, even if he's a dick, we pull for him. It's like that friend you had in school who everyone knew was a complete dick, but he was YOUR complete dick. If someone's on our team, we pull for him unless he betrays us somehow.

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:19 pm

In the book Gone Girl, you have zero problem rooting against the protagonist.

Pruitt · Post by **Pruitt** » Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:42 pm

Shirley wrote:
BTW, did anyone else wonder if Skyler really knew what was on that CD? I wonder if he didn't record two different "confessions." It's hard to imagine her going along with such an incredibly evil plan. I guess Walt's justification could have been it was like the USA and USSR pointing nukes at each other - mutual destruction as a means to uneasy peace. Damn.

Lastly, I wonder what stops Jesse. We know he doesn't actually burn the house down. Does he flinch before lighting the match? Does Flynn come in on him? Does Hank come in on him (remember, Hank went for "a walk")? I really hate to see Jesse go down before this is all over, but it's starting to look like that's the only way it can end.

I love this show.

Don't forget that Marie just tried to take Skyler's baby away from her. That was the point of no return for her, she is all in on this because if Hank gets some traction with his story, Skyler loses everything - children, money, freedom. She doesn't have a choice anymore.

I think that Jesse will have trouble lighting the match and may just see something in the house that will spur him to take a step back and re-evaluate how he is going to get at Walt.

Todd is the wild card here. Such awesome writing - Todd is the devoted "son" to Walt. He will seemingly do anything to please him, even calling him with an update when he didn't need to. Jesse on the other hand is the "son" who (completely justified) has turned his back on the man who made him what he is. So while Walt is spending a great deal of effort in trying to keep Jesse under his thumb, Todd has bought in to everything that Walt is selling. He will follow Walt no matter how nasty things will get.

BSF21 · Post by **BSF21** » Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:34 pm

Giff wrote:Gomez! A complete turd on an otherwise near-perfectly acted show. He's just awful.

Awww. I like Gomey. Quezada is a fine actor. I think they could have used him a lot more than they have.

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Wed Aug 28, 2013 2:00 pm

His problem is that he isn't used frequently enough to develop much of a persona. But they couldn't let him do too much with Hank, otherwise the shit that just went down wouldn't have been a problem. Too many easy alibis. Not sure if that was the plan or if it just worked out that way in hindsight.

Edit: PLus this:

Pruitt · Post by **Pruitt** » Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:55 pm

It's become the new "Hitler Reacts To..." meme.

howard · Post by **howard** » Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:21 pm

As deep as I can be during an episode of Breaking Bad, invariably Cranston will use some mannerism that will jar me out of the episode and remember his first starring role. No, Tim Whatley doesn't count.

howard · Post by **howard** » Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:20 pm

"We're wondering if maybe this isn't an 'Old Yeller' type situation"

howard · Post by **howard** » Sun Sep 01, 2013 9:05 pm

Granted, he came up with a winner with 'magnets', but I don't think this Jesse plan is gonna work out so well.

howard · Post by **howard** » Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:06 pm

First four and a half seasons--as a comic book

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Mon Sep 02, 2013 5:54 am

Oooh. Unfortunately Jesse is never going to know that he just started a war because he saw a guy that looked like the dude from Pawn Stars as some sort of muscle for Walt.

And I have to stop looking at Reddit and every other place trying to solve this series before it ends. Between wires and oddball theories, the viewers are basically figuring out what's happening.

Pruitt · Post by **Pruitt** » Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:42 am

An amazing scene with Walt and Walt Jr. at the hotel pool. Walt looked stunned at his son's pure love and devotion - the only person on the face of the earth who actually likes or cares about him. And as soon as he left, on the phone to Jesse.

Post by **Shirley** » Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:41 pm

It's getting a bit repetitive to say so, but I'm loving this final season. This last episode was a bit of a breather from a tension standpoint, but they kept the storylines moving along nicely.

Random thoughts:

- It was very interesting how Hank showed that while he could be kind to Jesse - buckling his seatbelt - he really doesn't care about him at all. He'd have been ecstatic if Walt had killed Jesse in the quad. I think he actually thought that might happen.

- I was thinking through the show that Walt's one last shred of humanity - that despite it all, he cares for Jesse and won't consider killing him - could be the thing that brings him down. But the last scene of the episode pretty strongly hinted that Walt's letting go of that. Maybe Skyler's coldhearted "what's one more" speech got to him.

- So, what is Jesse going to hit. Where does Walt truly live? It's gotta be his family. Jesse probably knows that Skyler is in on it by now, but not Walt Jr. That's where Jesse is headed. That's why we got the tender Walt-Jr scene at the pool. Also Jesse seeing the pic of Skyler and Walter Claus. Family. That's what got Walt into the whole thing to begin with - to take care of his family. Over and over in the show, Walt has yelled at Jesse whenever he's called the house or come by the house. Well, I think Jesse's going to try to blow that whole cover. Although maybe he can't find the Whites?

- Todd. Last episode, when he placed that call to Walt, I took it as a sign of panic. Todd knows now that the Lydia is fucking dangerous and she demands pure meth. Todd has said he can make it, but we know he can't. He just couldn't learn it the way Jesse did. Also, now he's brought his murderous uncle and boyz into the deal and he HAS to be feeling a ton of pressure. He NEEDS Walt to come back to help him.

Maybe that's the tradeoff that will result from Walt's call. Walt wants a favor - rub out Jesse. Todd wants Walt to cook in return. That's when things will get messy (OK, they are already pretty fucking messy) with Lydia and the gang.

- Lastly, I still wonder about the giant vacuum in the local meth/drug world. Gus rubbed out the cartel and their operation. Walt rubbed out Gus and his operation. Walt then started sending his stuff to Croatia and then he quit. Finally, Meth Damon and the Fourth Reich (I stole that from reddit) killed Declan and his gang, so now there's no big operation in Arizona either. Who's going to fill this void? Will the show deal with this? It's gotta be the Mexican cartels coming back hard, right? Surely the stupid, but good-at-killing, Nazi boys can't handle that operation.

I can't wait to see how they wrap this all up. I still don't know who I think is getting rubbed out first - Hank? Marie? Jesse? Flynn? Skyler?

howard · Post by **howard** » Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:07 pm

You don't think Badger and Skinny Pete can step up and become the new meth distribution network of the ABQ?

I small nitpick, Rerun. Hank is all cop, all the time. I love his character because he is so consistently a cop; it dictates everything he does. Yeah, there are a couple of wobbles here and there, but the consistency of his cop nature is what makes him great.

He did not buckle that seat belt because he cared about Jesse; he did it because he is a cop, and the seat belt is supposed to be buckled before you drive off. He cares about the law that sez buckle up.

You know, we're all assuming Walt wants Meth Damon's uncle to kill Jesse. This is just the kind of plot point Vince loves to twist us around. I am expecting the contract is gonna be for Hank. I am not even convinced Walt has decided to kill Jesse. But I've been known to overthink this kind of stuff.

Post by **Shirley** » Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:15 pm

howard wrote:You know, we're all assuming Walt wants Meth Damon's uncle to kill Jesse. This is just the kind of plot point Vince loves to twist us around. I am expecting the contract is gonna be for Hank. I am not even convinced Walt has decided to kill Jesse. But I've been known to overthink this kind of stuff.

No, I think you're absolutely right. Remember, Walt spent a long time staring at the pool the night before - just like he did a season or two earlier when he came up with the Lily of the Valley plan. He has an plan and it's not what we expect.

It's certainly possible that Jesse's threat changed things and Walt IS calling in the Nazis on Jesse, but I suspect it's much more complicated than that. Remember what Jesse told Hank and Gomie. Mr. White is smarter than you and whatever you think will happen, it will be the exact opposite.

howard · Post by **howard** » Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:40 am

The nitpick was the seat belt. The other stuff is just some speculation, not meant to counter anything you said.

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:25 am

Shirley wrote:....and whatever you think will happen, it will be the exact reverse opposite.

FIFY.

Pickin' them nits once again!

Pruitt · Post by **Pruitt** » Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:21 am

It's just great to watch where the writers are taking us.

I mean, after 60 episodes or so and with just 4 left, there are still so many things that COULD happen.

Anyone else have the thought that maybe, just maybe, Saul's buddy who makes people disappear will be back to take Skyler, Jr and the baby far, far away from this mess?

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:45 am

When Walt is trying to lie in the kitchen about the gas pump looks like terrible acting, but I think it may have been tremendous acting. To seem so stilted and obviously lying can't be easy when you basically lie for a living but try to make it seem real.

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:41 am

I small nitpick, Rerun. Hank is all cop, all the time. I love his character because he is so consistently a cop; it dictates everything he does. Yeah, there are a couple of wobbles here and there, but the consistency of his cop nature is what makes him great.

See, I think Hank finally just had his Breaking Bad moment when he didn't take Jesse in and then put him in a situation where he could have been killed. These are actions inspired by a vengeful maniac...not a cop. This is really what we've all been waiting for with Hank.

Pruitt · Post by **Pruitt** » Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:59 am

Jerloma wrote:
I small nitpick, Rerun. Hank is all cop, all the time. I love his character because he is so consistently a cop; it dictates everything he does. Yeah, there are a couple of wobbles here and there, but the consistency of his cop nature is what makes him great.
See, I think Hank finally just had his Breaking Bad moment when he didn't take Jesse in and then put him in a situation where he could have been killed. These are actions inspired by a vengeful maniac...not a cop. This is really what we've all been waiting for with Hank.

And when Jesse tells him his plan to get at Walt, Hank will be VERY receptive. Amazing stuff.

Post by **Shirley** » Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:03 am

howard wrote:The nitpick was the seat belt. The other stuff is just some speculation, not meant to counter anything you said.

Yeah, I gotcha. We're all just talking here. I agreed with your cop observation as well. I think it can actually be both. Hank is a straight-laced cop, so he buckled Jesse's seat belt. At the same time, it was very fatherly, and not a little creepy. Jesse has two dads.

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:21 am

Jerloma wrote:
I small nitpick, Rerun. Hank is all cop, all the time. I love his character because he is so consistently a cop; it dictates everything he does. Yeah, there are a couple of wobbles here and there, but the consistency of his cop nature is what makes him great.
See, I think Hank finally just had his Breaking Bad moment when he didn't take Jesse in and then put him in a situation where he could have been killed. These are actions inspired by a vengeful maniac...not a cop. This is really what we've all been waiting for with Hank.

Agree. Goes with my thought that everyone will end up breaking bad at some point. I'm thinking that Jesse's deal will end up being - "help me catch walt" and then you get to go free. So instead of Hank letting Walt skate, he let's Jesse skate and that's how he breaks bad.

And the kid that Todd shot - his family is going to end up getting the cash as part of Hank letting Jesse disappear.

Post by **brian** » Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:44 am

AB_skin_test wrote:
Jerloma wrote:
I small nitpick, Rerun. Hank is all cop, all the time. I love his character because he is so consistently a cop; it dictates everything he does. Yeah, there are a couple of wobbles here and there, but the consistency of his cop nature is what makes him great.
See, I think Hank finally just had his Breaking Bad moment when he didn't take Jesse in and then put him in a situation where he could have been killed. These are actions inspired by a vengeful maniac...not a cop. This is really what we've all been waiting for with Hank.
Agree. Goes with my thought that everyone will end up breaking bad at some point. I'm thinking that Jesse's deal will end up being - "help me catch walt" and then you get to go free. So instead of Hank letting Walt skate, he let's Jesse skate and that's how he breaks bad.

And the kid that Todd shot - his family is going to end up getting the cash as part of Hank letting Jesse disappear.

Jesse's skating no matter what he does or doesn't give Hank. They have less evidence on him than they do on Walt. Whatever he's doing now to help bring down Walt is based on his own motives, not out of any need to avoid prosecution.

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:57 am

brian wrote:
Jesse's skating no matter what he does or doesn't give Hank. They have less evidence on him than they do on Walt. Whatever he's doing now to help bring down Walt is based on his own motives, not out of any need to avoid prosecution.

I got the impression he admitted to killing Gale and cooking like a mofo.