NCAA Basketball 2017/18

Rex · Post by **Rex** » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:36 am

That sounds like death penalty to me.

Joe K · Post by **Joe K** » Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:15 am

Shirley wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:09 am
Joe K wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:47 am
tennbengal wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:35 am Xavier (!) mentioned too. That one surprises me. I guess nothing should surprise me.
A takeaway for me is that any program, regardless of size and history, likely has these issues if it has pro prospects (and not just future lottery picks) on its roster. Miller was apparently paying Fred Van Vleet when he was at Wichita State, and he's only like the 9th man on the Raptors. I was also impressed that Miller was apparently giving money or benefits to Malcolm Brogdon. Brogdon was a good player at UVA, but has been a much better pro than anyone expected. That's some nice scouting by Miller. (I guess there's a reason NBA teams have started hiring agents to run their front offices.)
It looks like the agent had dinner with Brogdon's mom in March, 2016. Brogdon was a fifth-year senior at the time already playing in the NCAA Tournament. Hard to really claim that as a benefit to his college career. It was a $64 dinner. Brogdon's mom is a college professor, while his dad is a lawyer. I'm pretty sure a single $64 dinner wasn't any sort of incentive to modify anyone's behavior.

Yeah, looking closer at the underlying documents it’s pretty bullshit for Forde and Thamel to play up some of the names on this list in the article itself. I’m thinking specifically of the current players like Bridges, Carter and Knox who at most got just a few hundred dollars. Does anyone really want to see Michigan State’s season torpedoed because Bridges’ mother was having trouble paying rent and took an extra $400? But then again, Forde is probably bitter that his buddy Pitino ate it hard, and Thamel has always tried to do the NCAA’s dirty work and expose players for small potatoes stuff.

(As an aside, I sat one table over from Thamel at a bar in Boston about 5 years ago and he actually had his buddy pull out a copy of Sports Illustrated to show a woman an article Thamel had written. It didn’t work.)

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:16 am

Rex wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:36 am That sounds like death penalty to me.

Yep. Classic #1-ranked school behavior.

Rex · Post by **Rex** » Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:28 am

Virginia's Pomeroy ratings for 2016 should be taken down.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:33 am

Add a sternly-worded plaque to the Jefferson Memorial

Post by **brian** » Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:39 am

Not a good month for Tom Izzo. When he's forced out at the end of the year, promoting a culture of rape and paying off players and vacating games will be his legacy.

HaulCitgo · Post by **HaulCitgo** » Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:40 pm

Agree. Seems insignificant in certain cases. BUT I am always surprised how low the dollar threshold is to get others to break laws and act immorally.

Post by **Shirley** » Fri Feb 23, 2018 2:16 pm

Rex wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:28 am Virginia's Pomeroy ratings for 2016 should be taken down.

Cold, dead fingers

DSafetyGuy · Post by **DSafetyGuy** » Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:42 pm

Joe K wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:15 am(As an aside, I sat one table over from Thamel at a bar in Boston about 5 years ago and he actually had his buddy pull out a copy of Sports Illustrated to show a woman an article Thamel had written. It didn’t work.)

Total Syracuse J-school move.

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:53 pm

Sean Miller is John Calipari if John Calipari was stupid as shit.

Joe K · Post by **Joe K** » Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:34 am

Yeah, but Miller got a good price on Ayton. $100K seems like a bargain for a Wooden Award caliber player who may be a top-3 draft pick.

DSafetyGuy · Post by **DSafetyGuy** » Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:36 am

Joe K wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:34 am Yeah, but Miller got a good price on Ayton. $100K seems like a bargain for a Wooden Award caliber player who may be a top-3 draft pick.

And, he has some interesting contract structuring:

If Miller is fired for cause, his contract is written in such a way that he would still receive more than 85 percent of the money he is owed through May 31, 2022.

Miller's contract provides that even if he is fired with cause, the university would have to pay his base salary. The contract defines his base salary as his salary plus his peripheral salary. That adds up to roughly $10.3 million through May 2022. The only part that Miller wouldn't be entitled to is $1.7 million from Nike and IMG that is due to him if he completes his contract.

Keeping such a percentage on a firing for cause would be unprecedented. Most coaches who are fired for cause receive no additional money past their employment date. But the contract has no provision that waives the university's obligation to pay Miller what is owed based on an NCAA violation. The contract makes no mention of the university's recourse if criminality is involved.

The contract also provides that if Miller commits an NCAA violation, he would have to pay up to $300,000 in damages to the university's coffers for the price of defending itself. If an NCAA violation occurs, Arizona has the right to claw back bonuses given to Miller during the time of the violation.

L-Jam3 · Post by **L-Jam3** » Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:45 pm

Did Luca Brasí negotiate that deal? Nice work if you can get it.

DSafetyGuy · Post by **DSafetyGuy** » Sat Feb 24, 2018 4:36 pm

L-Jam3 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:45 pm Did Luca Brasí negotiate that deal? Nice work if you can get it.

It's almost like he got it structured that way so that he need not worry about a show-cause penalty for something he was doing.

Post by **brian** » Sat Feb 24, 2018 4:48 pm

DSafetyGuy wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2018 4:36 pm
L-Jam3 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:45 pm Did Luca Brasí negotiate that deal? Nice work if you can get it.
It's almost like he got it structured that way so that he need not worry about a show-cause penalty for something he was doing.

Which from Miller's side you can almost respect. Hard to imagine Arizona didn't have a clue when they're structuring a deal like that. Even guys with insanely squeaky clean reps like Beilein and Brey don't get clauses like that.

wlu_lax6 · Post by **wlu_lax6** » Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:36 pm

So Pitt only scored 7 in the first half against UVA tonight. Wow.

I was surprised that there were lower numbers than that. Northern Illinois in 2013 scored 4 against Eastern Michigan. And that broke Eastern Michigan's record of 5 points in n the shot clock era.

Rex · Post by **Rex** » Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:03 pm

Yes, if you would like to know more about the worst ever D1 college game that is actually recorded on modern stat sites, here you go:

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/bo ... higan.html

My favorite thing about this game is the stat line of Akeem Springs: 17 minutes, 0 points, 0-10 shooting, 0-7 from three. He would go on to play major minutes for a Minnesota team that won 11 conference games. #B1G

wlu_lax6 · Post by **wlu_lax6** » Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:16 am

Jordan Bohannon from Iowa is a class act.

tennbengal · Post by **tennbengal** » Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:55 pm

This Mark Titus piece in the Ringer is excellent:

https://www.theringer.com/2018/2/27/170 ... ean-miller

Post by **Shirley** » Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:07 pm

tennbengal wrote: ↑Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:55 pm This Mark Titus piece in the Ringer is excellent:

https://www.theringer.com/2018/2/27/170 ... ean-miller

Agreed. That does a good job organizing some of the thoughts I've had about these reports.

I will say that, with the Sean Miller wiretaps, I'm actually surprised ESPN went with that story. I mean, I don't expect ESPN to be any bastion of journalistic morality, but they're pretty heavily invested in college basketball. And their coverage of college basketball has always been heavily slanted toward the big programs like Arizona. Whey would they want to burn Arizona based on somebody's description of wiretap transcripts that ESPN hasn't actually seen? That just doesn't make sense to me.

Post by **brian** » Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:26 pm

Shirley wrote: ↑Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:07 pm
tennbengal wrote: ↑Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:55 pm This Mark Titus piece in the Ringer is excellent:

https://www.theringer.com/2018/2/27/170 ... ean-miller
Agreed. That does a good job organizing some of the thoughts I've had about these reports.

I will say that, with the Sean Miller wiretaps, I'm actually surprised ESPN went with that story. I mean, I don't expect ESPN to be any bastion of journalistic morality, but they're pretty heavily invested in college basketball. And their coverage of college basketball has always been heavily slanted toward the big programs like Arizona. Whey would they want to burn Arizona based on somebody's description of wiretap transcripts that ESPN hasn't actually seen? That just doesn't make sense to me.

Especially at a multi-billion dollar company like ESPN it has to be based ultimately on actual, real reporting above and beyond the leaks. The liability on an incorrect report on that level would go into 9 figures possibly. ESPN isn't going to go out on that kind of financial limb to fuck over Sean Miller.

Post by **Shirley** » Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:58 pm

You're right. The potential libel lawsuit could be huge. That article could very well have ended Sean Miller's coaching career. How many millions of dollars would that be?

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:02 am

Shirley wrote: ↑Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:07 pmAnd their coverage of college basketball has always been heavily slanted toward the big programs like Arizona.

I’m just going to point out they did a big fluff piece on Villanova like two weeks ago and left them out of all scandal recaps despite the “Villanova coaches” and specific players being listed.

testuser2 · Post by **testuser2** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:53 am

Is there an article that researched the names on the spreadsheet and shows which ones go beyond acceptable agent behavior? For example the only name I really know on that list is DJ Newbill and based on the timing it looks like he was loaned $2K to get his pro career started in Europe? I don't follow basketball closely enough to know if the list is comprised mostly of those valid cases or if it's mostly payoffs.

Post by **Shirley** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:30 am

testuser2 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:53 am Is there an article that researched the names on the spreadsheet and shows which ones go beyond acceptable agent behavior? For example the only name I really know on that list is DJ Newbill and based on the timing it looks like he was loaned $2K to get his pro career started in Europe? I don't follow basketball closely enough to know if the list is comprised mostly of those valid cases or if it's mostly payoffs.

The main article and spreadsheet offered little more than names and numbers. Some payments were listed as loans, while most others were just meals and the like. There's nothing else. No details, other than notes scribbled in the margins that imply some loans were "bad." There's already some evidence that even the supposed meals aren't necessarily true - probably the result of this guy padding his expense reports.

And, of course, you can assume most of the "loans," if they were even actually made, were really investments with little hope of possible repayment some day.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:12 am

What's the possible logic of a $6K loan to $12MM per season Kyle Lowry?

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:32 am

mister d wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:12 am What's the possible logic of a $6K loan to $12MM per season Kyle Lowry?

to try to get him to sign with your agency to get a cut of the 12 million?

wlu_lax6 · Post by **wlu_lax6** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:01 pm

Okay so I know we don't cover too much DIII hoops but for the first time in school history we have a team dancing. They have had a team for 85 years and are heading to York college. Yes Yeshiva Maccabees won the Skyline Conference and play Friday 1PM (had to move the game from Saturday at 1 and work practice around Purim which kicks off tonight).

http://abc7ny.com/sports/yeshiva-univer ... e/3149707/

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:15 pm

A_B wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:32 am
mister d wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:12 am What's the possible logic of a $6K loan to $12MM per season Kyle Lowry?
to try to get him to sign with your agency to get a cut of the 12 million?

$6K?

Post by **brian** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:17 pm

wlu_lax6 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:01 pm Okay so I know we don't cover too much DIII hoops but for the first time in school history we have a team dancing. They have had a team for 85 years and are heading to York college. Yes Yeshiva Maccabees won the Skyline Conference and play Friday 1PM (had to move the game from Saturday at 1 and work practice around Purim which kicks off tonight).

http://abc7ny.com/sports/yeshiva-univer ... e/3149707/

Mazel tov!

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:20 pm

mister d wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:15 pm
A_B wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:32 am
mister d wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:12 am What's the possible logic of a $6K loan to $12MM per season Kyle Lowry?
to try to get him to sign with your agency to get a cut of the 12 million?
$6K?

Lowry wasn't a lottery pick - he was 24th, so for him to be as good as he is is defeinitely outperforming his draft position - so the price would have been lower. And I'm not saying it was a smart loan, just that could be the reasoning.

Also, he's making 28 million this year!

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:01 pm

This was a 12-31-15 balance sheet saying there was still a $6K loan outstanding. I totally get the pre-draft or college stuff or if it was a guy who never made it, but there's no reason to be carrying a Lowry loan at that stage. Its weird on some level.

DSafetyGuy · Post by **DSafetyGuy** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:05 pm

mister d wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:01 pm This was a 12-31-15 balance sheet saying there was still a $6K loan outstanding. I totally get the pre-draft or college stuff or if it was a guy who never made it, but there's no reason to be carrying a Lowry loan at that stage. Its weird on some level.

Loaned him $6K years ago, still hoping he'll finally pay it off while Kyle has a stance of "fuck it, I made it as a max player on my own, why should you get any cut of the work that got me to a contract that needed no negotiation"?

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:06 pm

mister d wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:01 pm This was a 12-31-15 balance sheet saying there was still a $6K loan outstanding. I totally get the pre-draft or college stuff or if it was a guy who never made it, but there's no reason to be carrying a Lowry loan at that stage. Its weird on some level.

Maybe he had a really low interest rate and was trying to pay his house off...

Post by **Shirley** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:16 pm

I never thought I'd leave Ken Pomeroy, but I have a new love.

http://barttorvik.com/

He's got pretty much everything Pomeroy has, and so much more. I've always wanted Ken to put trend data on his site so I could see how a team's changed over the season, but he never did it. Bart Torvik has it and it's awesome.

Oh, and it's free. Check it out.

wlu_lax6 · Post by **wlu_lax6** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:49 pm

Shirley wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:16 pm I never thought I'd leave Ken Pomeroy, but I have a new love.

http://barttorvik.com/

He's got pretty much everything Pomeroy has, and so much more. I've always wanted Ken to put trend data on his site so I could see how a team's changed over the season, but he never did it. Bart Torvik has it and it's awesome.

Oh, and it's free. Check it out.

I think Ken Pom is not real happy with this guy. There was an interview on the Sports Junkies yesterday with Ken Pom and a passing shot early in the conversation (think it has to do with a perception that this guy basically stole some stuff directly off Ken Pom's site).

Rex · Post by **Rex** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:20 pm

It's a straight up copy of the look and feel. I agree it's a great site, but I feel a little dirty looking at it.

Post by **Shirley** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:48 pm

Yeah, I agree with that. However, Ken has essentially stopped adding new features to his site. I can't remember the last one I actually cared about. This guy has a LOT of things Ken doesn't. Pomeroy has also stopped adding to his blog. He instead posts behind a paywall at The Athletic.

And Ken didn't invent the kind of stats he publishes. He just popularized them.

That said, I'd probably be a bit angry too, especially since this guy's giving it away. Honestly, I'm not sure I'll pay for kenpom.com next year with this one available. I'm guessing I'm not the only one. This will cost Ken some money unless he reinvests in his site to make it worthwhile again.

EnochRoot · Post by **EnochRoot** » Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:32 pm

Shirley wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:48 pm Yeah, I agree with that. However, Ken has essentially stopped adding new features to his site. I can't remember the last one I actually cared about. This guy has a LOT of things Ken doesn't. Pomeroy has also stopped adding to his blog. He instead posts behind a paywall at The Athletic.

And Ken didn't invent the kind of stats he publishes. He just popularized them.

That said, I'd probably be a bit angry too, especially since this guy's giving it away. Honestly, I'm not sure I'll pay for kenpom.com next year with this one available. I'm guessing I'm not the only one. This will cost Ken some money unless he reinvests in his site to make it worthwhile again.

Hiding behind a paywall without any proprietary info is weak / lazy. I mean, unless he was being paid (well) to do that.

Rex · Post by **Rex** » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:28 pm

Ken's own ratings are proprietary, and he does a few other things that are his own. It's just that there is nothing special about coming up with your own rating system. I like the site design and that's mostly what I pay for, especially since the price charged is more in the category of "support my hobby" than "help me meet my Q2 revenue targets." It has been going up I think, so that bears watching.