Game of Thrones....

[tennbengal]

Well it doesn’t because that’s fucking stupid.


I’m telling you. That was a bad episode. Visually, narratives, it was not good. They compared it to helms deep and they shouldn’t have. It was not good and I will be vindicated. The dragon shit was top level bad.

Spoiler alert - as cool as Helm’s deep was - that battle also didn’t make sense. At some point , one needs to just go with the flow on these kind of pieces.

[rass]

Holy shit, The Ringer has no less than five article (one might be a video) available this morning about last night's episode. What are they going to do in a month?

[rass]

Pretty racist (and probably dumb) to use the Dothraki and Unsullied as cannon fodder (metaphorically).

[tennbengal]

On the Dothraki - the better move would have been not to have them there at all. Not their fight - too many numbers against them for them to survive - the horses are useless inside the walls which was the only place they should have defended. Maybe scouting the numbers against the north was impossible due to the wall of snow etc - but that was an unwinnable fight no matter how they planned it unless the NK was killed.

[rass]

This series shouldn’t end fighting Cersei. The first shot of the first season was the white walkers. They should have flipped the battles. Duck this.

I am apoplectic. This is a travesty. There are no stakes. Who gives a fuck at this point.

But it was pretty clear this was the way it was going to go since the end of last season when Cersei didn't send any help North, right? And the Lannisters killed the Hand of the King and tried to kill a Stark in the first episode, too. They made a choice to call the TV series Game of Thrones and not A Song of Ice and Fire.

[rass]

Was there a better plan for the good guys here? They were likely outnumbered to start (even without the NK's ability to raise the dead), and in no position for a long siege. If they were unwilling to abandon WF and flee South, then what was the better option than a desperate last stand and "hope to get an open shot at the NK and hope dragon fire kills him"? And because they had a 2-1 dragon advantage and because the NK took them on in the air anyway, they got that shot.

And for once I don't think Jon can be criticized much. Once Dany took off and the storm front hit what was he supposed to do? Once on the ground and that close going after the NK made sense. Once he lost the NK but made it inside, going for Bran made sense. And he did that, ignoring Sam and anything else that might have diverted him along the way. He needed to get across that courtyard to get to Bran and the big zombie dragon was in the way. Whatcha gonna do?

If anyone fucked up, it was the NK. If you want to say it was shitty story telling to have him get involved so early rather than letting his army grind out a win on the ground, and for him to be so arrogant to expose himself then maybe I guess.

I don't get why the didn't cull the cast a little more. Having Theon or Ser Friendzone be the biggest character to die out of the small handful of named characters they offed seemed a little soft at this point.

[EdRomero]

Not much of an army left to battle the Lannisters and the Golden Company and the Iron Fleet.

[Jerloma]

That was unquestionably one of the worst episodes of the whole series.

I really really hated it. Made no sense on so many levels.

What didn’t make sense? I liked the episode, not the best ever, but certainly not the worst or one of the worst of the series IMO.

How did people end up where they did? Oooh Jorah saves Dany! Oooh Arya shows up at last second! It was bad. This series shouldn’t end fighting Cersei. The first shot of the first season was the white walkers. They should have flipped the battles. Duck this.

You want them to show every step these characters take? Jorah sees a dragon with no mother on it flying from the battle field trying to shake a bunch of wights off him. Logically, goes to the battle field to save his Queen. That's kind of what knights do, right?

They showed Arya walking out of the grounds. The fact that you forgot about her is what actually makes it good film making. You got hung up on everyone else. That was exactly what they wanted. She's stealthy and knows that place like the back of her hand. What do you mean, where did she come from?

[Jerloma]

She's a fucking superhero assassin, basically.

[Johnnie]

She's a fucking superhero assassin, basically.

Thinking on it this morning, I got a bit annoyed that the Night King had all of his generals around him at the Godswood but she came out of nowhere. I'll fall bad on this plus your previous post to be like "Nah, she knows her shit."

[Johnnie]

[bfj]

She's a fucking superhero assassin, basically.

Good points above. As soon as Melisandre mentioned meeting blue eyes on the way, you knew where she was going, to protect Bran and get her shot at the Night King.

[rass]

She's a fucking superhero assassin, basically.

Good points above. As soon as Melisandre mentioned meeting blue eyes on the way, you knew where she was going, to protect Bran and get her shot at the Night King.

Yup. I for one was happy I had forgotten about her by the end.

This is for the most part harsher than how I feel, but will make AB happy.

[brian]

I give the showrunners, etc some credit because frankly there was an extremely high degree of difficulty for that episode considering they spent the entire show building up how unstoppable the NK's army was, so even if you knew the "good guys" were going to prevail in the end, making what amounted to the entire length of a short movie all about one specific battle was never going to be easy or check everyone's boxes.

I could go into a list of stuff I didn't like as well, but to be honest I'm glad they wrapped it up in one episode, even if there's a bit of a letdown that the entire show spent an entire season building up how fucked mankind was just to have the threat dispatched with one dagger from a teenager (though at least it was a teenager trained as a faceless assassin).

ETA: I read Sepinwall's review after I posted the above and think we're on the same page, he and I. All in all, a "meh" episode, but I was never all that excited about the zombies anyway. On to more interesting battles...

[Jerloma]

She's a fucking superhero assassin, basically.

Good points above. As soon as Melisandre mentioned meeting blue eyes on the way, you knew where she was going, to protect Bran and get her shot at the Night King.

Yeah, that's the thing. Melisandre pretty much foreshadowed it for us, and yet I still was thinking Bran had something up his sleeve. What was the whole point of him warging into a raven and flying into battle?

[A_B]

I've slept on it, read some articles. And still, not a good episode. I will agree that they had to make some tough choices about timing, and with two enemies on either side, I guess you err on the side of letting one of the shows main characters get the ending battle instead of the existential dread.

I think the whole thing was too dark (don't @me with your brightness on the TV takes) to know what was going on for long stretches. Was that intentional to disorient and/or give a sense of the craziness of battle? Maybe, and if so it nailed it. But you couldn't tell with 100 percent certainty what characters were on screen in melee scenes. And then the fog rolls in and it's even worse.

[A_B]

She's a fucking superhero assassin, basically.

Good points above. As soon as Melisandre mentioned meeting blue eyes on the way, you knew where she was going, to protect Bran and get her shot at the Night King.

Yeah, that's the thing. Melisandre pretty much foreshadowed it for us, and yet I still was thinking Bran had something up his sleeve. What was the whole point of him warging into a raven and flying into battle?

That was just so the viewers could get a different viewpoint, IMO.

[brian]

I've slept on it, read some articles. And still, not a good episode. I will agree that they had to make some tough choices about timing, and with two enemies on either side, I guess you err on the side of letting one of the shows main characters get the ending battle instead of the existential dread.

I think the whole thing was too dark (don't @me with your brightness on the TV takes) to know what was going on for long stretches. Was that intentional to disorient and/or give a sense of the craziness of battle? Maybe, and if so it nailed it. But you couldn't tell with 100 percent certainty what characters were on screen in melee scenes. And then the fog rolls in and it's even worse.

That would have been dark as fuck on the best, most expensive TV in the world, so I have to assume it was intentional (if I'm being cynical I wonder how much was for atmosphere/fog of war vs. trying to keep down CGI costs). It was so dark I honestly expected at least one major character to be killed off by "friendly fire".

[Jerloma]

Yeah, I could have sworn I saw Tormund die but I guess not.

How does this sound for a theory...Arya kills Jamie, perhaps mercifully or in some sort of self-sacrifice, and takes his face to get to Cersei?

[brian]

Put it this way though. There were two episodes of TV on HBO last night featuring episode-long battles and Game of Thrones was the second best.

[TT2.0]

Am I the only one that thought Arya left and took Brans face to get close enough to kill the night king?

[Rush2112]

They have zero dragons though.

One came back to comfort Daenerys as she held Jorah.

(Pretty stupid for her to land after she saved Jon there though, sets up the hero's death for Jorah, but still stupid. Speaking of stupid, only having the Iron Born protect Bran when they know the NK and his posse are riding for him was also very stupid.)

[A_B]

They have zero dragons though.

One came back to comfort Daenerys as she held Jorah.

(Pretty stupid for her to land after she saved Jon there though, sets up the hero's death for Jorah, but still stupid. Speaking of stupid, only having the Iron Born protect Bran when they know the NK and his posse are riding for him was also very stupid.)

I think Brian meant that Cersei's armies have zero dragons, so the superiority in numbers is mitigated. I think both dragons survived, though again, you could be forgiven for not knowing!

Dany and Jon were bad in battle. But they almost always are.

[Rush2112]

Yeah, that's the thing. Melisandre pretty much foreshadowed it for us, and yet I still was thinking Bran had something up his sleeve. What was the whole point of him warging into a raven and flying into battle?

That was just so the viewers could get a different viewpoint, IMO.

My wife watches the Watch the thrones Ringer show afterwards and they were hypothesising that we'll find out in the next episode or two what he was doing. Perhaps getting more info on Jon's birthright? Doing something in the past to change some history? etc. etc.

The initial warg was to find out where the NK was or at least reveal him to the viewer.

[brian]

They have zero dragons though.

One came back to comfort Daenerys as she held Jorah.

(Pretty stupid for her to land after she saved Jon there though, sets up the hero's death for Jorah, but still stupid. Speaking of stupid, only having the Iron Born protect Bran when they know the NK and his posse are riding for him was also very stupid.)

I meant Cersei has zero dragons, so that will make up for the lack of manpower against Cersei's army.

[Johnnie]

I'd very much like to see a legit Pentagon strategist's gameplan given the circumstances.

It's part of my job in logistics to craft contingency plans and crisis action plans for war gaming. I've been a part of exercises (think LARPing, but military flavored) and ROC (Rehearsal of Concept) drills and I've done the CWPC (Contingency Wartime Planning Course). So it eats me up to see the Dothraki just get across a huge field to be extinguished.

I feel like Benioff and Weiss could've had some outside consulting leading up to the eventual Arya awesomeness.

[Steve of phpBB]

To me, it felt like they wasted half (or more) of their few remaining episodes. A 70-minute battle just doesn't interest me that much, especially when you can't see anything. I think they could have moved the story just as far with only half as much time, and then used that time for something else - hell, more songs around the fire.

(I think I read today that if you were watching on HBO Go, with good internet, the picture was better.)

Am I misremembering, or did Jon and Dany and whoever say last week that a frontal assault would be dumb against the Walker, so they'd have to be lured in and attacked from the flanks? The Dothraki certainly proved that part right.

And if Bran can warg into ravens and fly around a battlefield, it sure would have been helpful for him to do that before the battle, and in the presence of the commanders, so they could get some recon.

[Johnnie]

(I think I read today that if you were watching on HBO Go, with good internet, the picture was better.)

This is my set up on a 55" HDTV I bought in 2013. It's next to my front window in my living room. Seemed fine. Glare was more of an issue than dark colors.

[Rush2112]

I meant Cersei has zero dragons, so that will make up for the lack of manpower against Cersei's army.

Ya, read that wrong, and think I was crossing it with someone else saying that all the dragons were dead somewhere else. I think that every non-Lannister banner is going to flock to Team J/D now though, so the manpower will get slightly more even.

[Rush2112]

So it eats me up to see the Dothraki just get across a huge field to be extinguished.

The lighting of the swords and then having them extinguished suddenly was pretty visually stunning though.

[Johnnie]

True.

Also, Rusillo's takes are pretty good here.

[DaveInSeattle]

I'd very much like to see a legit Pentagon strategist's gameplan given the circumstances.

Here ya go...

THE BATTLE OF WINTERFELL: A TACTICAL ANALYSIS

[Johnnie]

I'd very much like to see a legit Pentagon strategist's gameplan given the circumstances.

Here ya go...

THE BATTLE OF WINTERFELL: A TACTICAL ANALYSIS

Niiiice. Thanks, Dave.

[Johnnie]

This was very much the same reaction in my house too.

[Johnny Carwash]

Look at those hipster fucks not watching the Sports Frogs game

[Nonlinear FC]

She's a fucking superhero assassin, basically.

Good points above. As soon as Melisandre mentioned meeting blue eyes on the way, you knew where she was going, to protect Bran and get her shot at the Night King.

Yeah, that's the thing. Melisandre pretty much foreshadowed it for us, and yet I still was thinking Bran had something up his sleeve. What was the whole point of him warging into a raven and flying into battle?

I am SO CONFLICTED about this episode, but this part of the episode really bugged me. I don't like when movies/shows put stuff out that's obviously only accessible/understandable to a tiny fraction of the audience OR is only understandable after the showrunner/director explains shit. Kind of like half of Inception. That movie bugged the shit out of me. A bunch of people praised that shit, even though they didn't understand most of what was going on, because they didn't want feel stupid by saying "what the fuck was that all about?"

[Nonlinear FC]

I'd very much like to see a legit Pentagon strategist's gameplan given the circumstances.

It's part of my job in logistics to craft contingency plans and crisis action plans for war gaming. I've been a part of exercises (think LARPing, but military flavored) and ROC (Rehearsal of Concept) drills and I've done the CWPC (Contingency Wartime Planning Course). So it eats me up to see the Dothraki just get across a huge field to be extinguished.

I feel like Benioff and Weiss could've had some outside consulting leading up to the eventual Arya awesomeness.

Random Ass Question: You ever been to Fort A.P. Hill in Fredericksburg? I know that makes almost zero sense, but they have an asymmetrical war gaming center there. (Weirdly, my in-laws can rent cabins on the base, and I've been there a dozen times or so, the center is relatively new.)

[Shirley]

I just watched it a bit ago and I thought the episode was pretty damn great. I can't recall watching something with that much sustained intensity since maybe when I first watched Aliens in the theater.

Did the good guys make some serious strategic mistakes? Sure, but that's to be expected. Not a lot of battle-hardened leaders out there. Maybe only Jaime? And I'm not sure he's really in a position to be taking over.

To me, the biggest potential mistake is not using the dragons earlier. Way earlier. I think they should have flown them out hours earlier, if only for recon. But then, possibly for a few quick guerilla strikes to cook up masses of wights long before they reached Winterfell. The reason why I typed "potential" up there though is the real concern that the Night King not only killed a dragon last time he saw one, but he then raised that one and now has one of his own. So, maybe they were afraid to expose their two good dragons too soon.

Either way, sending the Dothraki out in a blind charge was pretty dumb, even if it looked cool. That said, the Dothraki are known for eschewing any sort of strategy in battle and may have prefered doing exactly what they did. At least up until they hit a wall of the dead and realized their mistake.

Again, all in all, I loved it. I love that Arya got to deliver the final blow. I do think it's a bit anti-climactic that this happened in Ep 3 though. I figured the NK wouldn't be defeated until nearer the end.

[Nonlinear FC]

Overall, I'm going to say I thought that was a pretty fantastic episode. I understand how people can disagree, but I really thought it was an amazing ride and I was on the edge of my seat (for mostly good reasons.)

1) I have a pretty nice TV, not the best but only a couple years old and decent cable for most shows. Netflix is sharp as shit, for example. That shit was dark as fuck and large stretches were almost unwatchable. I really think they did something technologically that backfired on them. I'm not exaggerating when I say I couldn't see about 30 percent of that show. My wife was pissed. I got over it, but I listen to a lot of podcasts so I'm used to just listening to audio and being entertained.

2) I think we're going to have trouble getting a finale that tops this, BUT I have a little more faith that these guys will have two more epic set up episodes and then bring it home. The zombie/white walker thing was amazing, but I have to say... I'm kind of over zombie shit. I mean, say something and earn your fucking place Night King.

3) Rule of thumb: If they don't show a character dying, that character is not dead. That includes Drogons. And Rhaegyl (sp?).

4) Fucking Lyanna Mormont. Fuckin' A. This show is probably still trying to make up for the shit it ate over rape and general misogyny issues, but I'll take it all day. That was fucking bad ass.

5) I think an under-rated aspect of this episode is the mix of battle, fighting, hiding and poignant moments mixed in. We get these Dothraki weapon lighting/extinguishing and then the close in craziness, and then Ayra sneaking around in that crazy scene, and then the crypt... The aerial dragon fighting. I still want to revert back to point #1, because it was damn near impossible to tell what was going on for so much.

6) While I agree it was kind of a bad look to have the "brown people" to be the vanguard and rear guard, but man... Fuckin' A. Grey Worm was amazing in this episode. I really thought they were going to kill him off, after his (for him), somewhat saccharine moment with Missandei about traveling the world after their down up in The North. What a ride with that guy.

7) The whole sequence connecting the Red Witch and Arya and the Blue Eyes was so fucking cool. And that assassin move... That's just an epic way to kill the Night King... Jaime, Brienne, Jon.. They all would've charged in like a swordsman and he would've fucked them up. Ayra is the hero assassin for that moment.

If that shit had worked out better digitally, this would've been on of my top 5 episodes. I do agree that at times the waves of weights and the fact that everything was so overwhelming made it feel like there was zero percent chance of anyone living. It just felt like more of them should've died, frankly. Not super complaining about it, but the way that battle "progressed" at least one of Brienne, Jaime or Tormund should be dead right now.

[Shirley]

I actually watched this one on my computer instead of my TV, and I think that helped a lot. I noticed that if I put my monitor a bit below my eyes, the screen lightened and I could see much better. I'm sure if I'd tried on my TV, especially if I tried while it's light out any my room is bright, it would have been frustrating. I actually had that problem some in the previous two episodes.