2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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It's all made up, Brian.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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brian wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:56 am (All that said, I thought before he was going to win Nevada in a walk and I'd still put him as about a 60 percent favorite at this point, but the rank and file Culinary members don't like people shitting on their union. And like it or not, that's the message that's getting sent here. You guys are on Twitter. Are you really doubting that there wasn't some kind of vitriolic response from his supporters about the one sheeter?)
brian wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:52 am Look.

I get that Bernie can't fail, he can only be failed, but at some point he's going to have to have a come to Jesus moment with his most rabid supporters or risk blowing everything in November. I've said all along he's got no chance against Trump in November and I very much hope I'm wrong, but at this point I doubt he'd even win the popular vote against Trump.
Well color me skeptical when the very same union leader worked with Podesta and Tanden back in 2016 to try to denigrate Sanders:



I would also argue that candidates who constantly whine to the refs about Bernie Bros are in for a rude awakening if and when they get to the General Election. Good luck dealing with all the bullshit that Trump and his backers will throw at you if you think Sanders’ supporters are too mean.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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I gotta say though, that seems like a pretty shitty flyer from the Culinary folks.

As JoeK and I were going on about last week, these health care proposals are a starting point in negotiations. Getting super bent out of shape about what amounts to policy nuance seems a little short-sighted... Or perhaps there are other things at play, because it seems weird for the union to stake out that kind of position at this point in the process.

I'll also point out, unions have often been key players in maintaining the status quo. They aren't some band of angels. Never have been. I support the union effort when it comes to workplace issues, I'm a lot less enthused by how they are often used, or allow themselves to be used, politically.

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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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FWIW, I agree it was at best dumb and worst abhorrent for the Culinary to throw a wrench a week before the caucus. At what point here I backed the Culinary?

I'm just telling you guys that there was a way to handle this and it was handled the wrong way and it might cost him Nevada next week. I like to think I have a pretty good handle on Nevada politics and it's not like a lot of other places. The unions still draw a lot of water and the rank and file doesn't do the bidding of the union leadership, but they DO NOT LIKE people shitting on their union.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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brian wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:48 am
mister d wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:43 am Lots of good examples in that article of real supporters of Sanders and their vicious attacks.
So you dispute they're receiving lots of calls and Tweets from Sanders supporters?
Major change asking the question, huh?
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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brian wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:06 pmI'm just telling you guys that there was a way to handle this and it was handled the wrong way and it might cost him Nevada next week. I like to think I have a pretty good handle on Nevada politics and it's not like a lot of other places. The unions still draw a lot of water and the rank and file doesn't do the bidding of the union leadership, but they DO NOT LIKE people shitting on their union.
Send some real world examples of vicious attacks on the Nevada culinary union?
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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mister d wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:11 pm
brian wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:06 pmI'm just telling you guys that there was a way to handle this and it was handled the wrong way and it might cost him Nevada next week. I like to think I have a pretty good handle on Nevada politics and it's not like a lot of other places. The unions still draw a lot of water and the rank and file doesn't do the bidding of the union leadership, but they DO NOT LIKE people shitting on their union.
Send some real world examples of vicious attacks on the Nevada culinary union?
Do you think I'm getting the fucking phone calls?
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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Tweets are usually public?
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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Spoken like a true Bernie Bro. That's literally the majority of responses to people who complain about this. "I don't see the Tweets, so obviously you're lying!"
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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You guys cracked the case. Bernie's supporters are definitely not fucking loons. Thanks for proving my point.

JoeK is one step away from insisting that the Illuminati and the Rothschilds are conspiring against Bernie, but it's impossible for his supporters to take things a little far online.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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Set aside for a minute whether or not you guys believe it to be true. Sadly, that ship has sailed. You have a journalist actually talking to people who say they're being turned off by the Bernie Bots and you all still don't think there's an issue. Bernie could actually address this but either he wants to encourage it, doesn't care or doesn't think it's potentially an issue.

There's a lot of people who really do think it's an issue and believe me, it's going to be MORE pronounced when you're trying to win over white middle-class moderates who are going to be scared by a "socialist" label come November and horror stories (most of which untrue) about single-payer in Canada and the UK.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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If you have dyed in the wool liberals like me and Giff and Steve (and I don't want to throw any other names out there, but I know we're not the only ones) who think maybe the online vitriol is a bit much how are they going to do trying to win over people who actually historically vote Republican but don't like Trump or who can be swayed by the right policy argument?
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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JFC you guys. They made an extraordinary claim...that they were being "viciously attacked." All D is doing is asking for evidence. Not saying he doesn't believe it.

Also, the only people who are going to buy the socialism attacks are people who would already never vote Democrat. I saw a rally last week where Biden was using that very tactic while talking to a bunch of fire fighters and apparently nobody saw the irony.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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Why is it whenever there was anything that Hillary did wrong in 2016, it was her fault but whenever there's anything that Bernie does wrong, it's the fault of his "haters" or the "media" or a "Democratic conspiracy"?

ETA: Get ready for a lot of that come November if he's the nominee. But in the end it will never be his fault.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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What did Bernie do wrong? A union doesn't like his healthcare plan so he'll have to defend that. Do you think he sicked his "bros" on them or something? What is happening?
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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Jerloma wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:59 pm What did Bernie do wrong? A union doesn't like his healthcare plan so he'll have to defend that. Do you think he sicked his "bros" on them or something? What is happening?
I'm not talking about this specifically, it's more of a general comment.

There's always a lot of excuses for why he lost the nomination in 2016 but none of them have anything to do with him or his shortcomings. And if he loses Nevada or South Carolina or struggles on Super Tuesday it'll be because of some external reason, but not because he did anything wrong.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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It's one thing to build a movement. Good for Bernie, he did that.

Then you have to be able to steer the movement in the right direction and I very much think he's incapable of that.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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is the app good to go in Nevada or will there be more problems?
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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degenerasian wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:16 pm is the app good to go in Nevada or will there be more problems?
No one knows. Sounds like they're going to be using Google Docs, but I think there's still going to be some tabulating delays because of the way the caucus works. This is also the first time they're doing early voting, so you have to rank the candidates 1 to 5 if you vote early like I'm going to on Saturday (for the record - Warren, Sanders, Mayor Pete, Klobuchar, Biden), so it will likely depend on how large the turnout is on the day of the caucus.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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I didn't miss the posting of those vicious tweets, right? Been a little tied up.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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mister d wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:37 pm I didn't miss the posting of those vicious tweets, right? Been a little tied up.
Hey, we only talk about my sex life here.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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mister d wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:37 pm I didn't miss the posting of those vicious tweets, right? Been a little tied up.
I went through and saw a few. If you'd really like I can post them here, but nothing on the order of dozens or hundreds. Not sure what your point is? That it didn't happen? That's not true. That it was overblown? Perhaps, even probably. That Bernie Bots are incapable of being dicks to anyone who doesn't drink Bernie's Kool-Aid? LOL at that one, bro.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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Things escalating quickly here. Lots of anger from rank and file at the union leadership over the M4A issue. Culinary was expected to NOT make an endorsement before the caucus (again, JoeK's conspiracy theories aside, Bernie has a lot of supporters among UNITE HERE and the Culinary leadership and a few weeks ago he even toured the Culinary's physical plant for health care including a city block that includes clinics, pharmacies, etc.) but that has apparently changed.

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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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(Believe it or not, there's a definite non-zero chance they still endorse Bernie.)
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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Jerloma wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:59 pmDo you think he sicked his "bros" on them or something?
I am not aware of anything ever suggesting that Bernie ever sicced anyone on anyone.

However, I do think he bears a little responsibility for some of his followers, for a couple of reasons. He employs people like David Sirota as senior advisers. Sirota has been vicious (and not particularly honest) against folks he deems insufficiently liberal. Plus after years of attacking the Democratic Party and DNC, it's not surprising that rabid angry online followers will get rabid and angry online.

I just know that the women politics writers I follow consistently report a lot of harassment from purported Sanders supporters. I imagine some of that is exaggerated, but I can't just dismiss it.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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brian wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:53 pmI went through and saw a few. If you'd really like I can post them here, but nothing on the order of dozens or hundreds. Not sure what your point is? That it didn't happen? That's not true. That it was overblown? Perhaps, even probably. That Bernie Bots are incapable of being dicks to anyone who doesn't drink Bernie's Kool-Aid? LOL at that one, bro.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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mister d wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:34 pm
brian wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:53 pmI went through and saw a few. If you'd really like I can post them here, but nothing on the order of dozens or hundreds. Not sure what your point is? That it didn't happen? That's not true. That it was overblown? Perhaps, even probably. That Bernie Bots are incapable of being dicks to anyone who doesn't drink Bernie's Kool-Aid? LOL at that one, bro.
How much is just the right amount of harassment online or via telephone for disagreeing with a political policy?
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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I don't know, Brian? How much is just the right amount of harassment online for liking a different hockey team? Every large group has a segment of shit at the bottom, not every large group gets defined by that segment.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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mister d wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:52 pm I don't know, Brian? How much is just the right amount of harassment online for liking a different hockey team? Every large group has a segment of shit at the bottom, not every large group gets defined by that segment.
The sports team analogy is actually a good one. I don’t spend any time on hockey Twitter but shitposting is a ubiquitous part of NBA Twitter. But no one asks LeBron or Curry to disavow the lunatics who support their teams. And going back to politics, it’s not just Bernie fans who can be nasty online. Female Bernie supporters like Liz Bruenig (NYT columnist) or Briahna Joy Grey (press secretary) get plenty of vitriol from people who dislike Sanders. As you said though, people don’t typically blame other candidates *personally* when that happens.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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mister d wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:52 pm I don't know, Brian? How much is just the right amount of harassment online for liking a different hockey team? Every large group has a segment of shit at the bottom, not every large group gets defined by that segment.

I am being harassed online by 100% of the Astros fans I know for being a grizzlies fan.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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Well, I feel like we're finally having the right conversation though. Isn't it theoretically possible then for a fanbase (be it sports or political) to generally be so toxic as to be reflective of the fanbase as a whole?

Like at what point is it the responsibility of the base to police its most extreme members. Because the answer to that question isn't "never".
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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tennbengal wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:09 pm
mister d wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:52 pm I don't know, Brian? How much is just the right amount of harassment online for liking a different hockey team? Every large group has a segment of shit at the bottom, not every large group gets defined by that segment.

I am being harassed online by 100% of the Astros fans I know for being a grizzlies fan.
I thought it was a Boston fan harassing you.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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tennbengal wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:09 pm
mister d wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:52 pm I don't know, Brian? How much is just the right amount of harassment online for liking a different hockey team? Every large group has a segment of shit at the bottom, not every large group gets defined by that segment.

I am being harassed online by 100% of the Astros fans I know for being a grizzlies fan.
Dayum, TT. BURN.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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brian wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:11 pm Well, I feel like we're finally having the right conversation though. Isn't it theoretically possible then for a fanbase (be it sports or political) to generally be so toxic as to be reflective of the fanbase as a whole?

Like at what point is it the responsibility of the base to police its most extreme members. Because the answer to that question isn't "never".
You just parroted the "bernie bros are vicious online" shit despite admitting you think it was "probably" overstated! Does this whole episode not prove how effective these tactics are?
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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You didn't answer the question. A lot of this started four years ago with rhetoric that pretty well basted in sexism and misogyny and I personally at least haven't seen a lot of evidence that any lessons were learned since then.

What I have learned is that when a Bernie supporter online discovers you support another candidate you get ad hominem attacks against said candidate at worst and concern trolling at best and it's pretty tiring frankly.

But if you and Joe think that's the way to convert people over to your side come July through November, go off and let's see how it turns out.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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Concern trolling like posting about the horrific viciousness of a group of people relating to an incident you yourself believe was probably overstated?
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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Stuff like this -- completely not helpful :



And I don't think this guy is being hyperbolic to prove a point. The Bernie True Believers really believe that being more moderate than them means that you're a racist. It's a big turnoff.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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Or ad hominem like claiming a person would applaud the rape of their grade schooler because they said:
mister d wrote: Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:35 pm I could be very wrong and I’m willing to be, but I thought Kobe’s had a lot of gray area.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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Tanden is vocally pro-Bloomberg and was outraged by the booing, where's the issue with Geier's comp?
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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mister d wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:33 pm Tanden is vocally pro-Bloomberg and was outraged by the booing, where's the issue with Geier's comp?
"...the entire class of Beltway liberals..."
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