2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Joe K »

Steve of phpBB wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:03 pm
mister d wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:55 pm When I voted on Tuesday at the elementary school down the street, a mom came up to me. She said she has two small children, and they have a nightly ritual. After the kids have brushed teeth and read books and gotten that last sip of water and done all the other bedtime routines, they do one last thing before the two little ones go to sleep: Mama leans over them and whispers, “Tastes great.” And the children together reply, “Less filling.”
Lol.

For what it's worth, I didn't even hear of the Dream Big Fight Hard slogan until I was at a Warren meeting. So I don't think it was a rousing success.

Speaking of (alleged) campaign mismanagement, I'd like to hear from the Bernie stans on whether they agree with the facts Kos lays out here:

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/3 ... e-that-way
It’s funny to me that Bernie’s campaign strategy is being criticized when he’s in much better shape now than he was at the same stage in 2016. He needs like 54% of the remaining pledged delegates to win outright. That’ll be challenging for sure. But it’s not a bad position to be in when many of the same people criticizing him now were convinced he had no chance against the likes of Warren, Harris and O’Rourke. (See below for just one example.)

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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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degenerasian wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:03 pm You guys think the letter is too long? She did raise millions worth of your money and time. They shouldn't be short-changed on an explanation.
It's not so much that the letter is too long. It's that the length of the letter reveals a political approach that the masses will tune out. (Or, did tune out, I guess.)
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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Steve of phpBB wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:03 pmSpeaking of (alleged) campaign mismanagement, I'd like to hear from the Bernie stans on whether they agree with the facts Kos lays out here:
I started to go point by point but I stopped to just post this instead.

Image

Kos' inability to understand Bernie's refusal to go/stay inside the party is just far too on the nose.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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Joe K wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:23 pmIt’s funny to me that Bernie’s campaign strategy is being criticized when he’s in much better shape now than he was at the same stage in 2016. He needs like 54% of the remaining pledged delegates to win outright. That’ll be challenging for sure. But it’s not a bad position to be in when many of the same people criticizing him now were convinced he had no chance against the likes of Warren, Harris and O’Rourke. (See below for just one example.)

Is there a single 2020 primary where Bernie even equalled his 2016 performance?

Has he even reached 40 percent in any primary other than Vermont?
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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mister d wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:25 pm
Steve of phpBB wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:03 pmSpeaking of (alleged) campaign mismanagement, I'd like to hear from the Bernie stans on whether they agree with the facts Kos lays out here:
I started to go point by point but I stopped to just post this instead.

Image

Kos' inability to understand Bernie's refusal to go/stay inside the party is just far too on the nose.
So it's not about the facts laid out, but who the messenger is?
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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Seemed equally or more opinion than a layout of facts, but I'm willing to agree/disagree if there's a specific one you liked.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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Steve of phpBB wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:29 pm
Joe K wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:23 pmIt’s funny to me that Bernie’s campaign strategy is being criticized when he’s in much better shape now than he was at the same stage in 2016. He needs like 54% of the remaining pledged delegates to win outright. That’ll be challenging for sure. But it’s not a bad position to be in when many of the same people criticizing him now were convinced he had no chance against the likes of Warren, Harris and O’Rourke. (See below for just one example.)

Is there a single 2020 primary where Bernie even equalled his 2016 performance?

Has he even reached 40 percent in any primary other than Vermont?
For the millionth time, there have been at least 4 viable candidates in every race this time. And do you seriously not see the irony in a pundit who predicted Sanders wouldn’t crack 12% now claiming he’s underperforming?
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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degenerasian wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:03 pm You guys think the letter is too long? She did raise millions worth of your money and time. They shouldn't be short-changed on an explanation.
I'm a communications professional, including a significant time in politics.

That letter is ridiculous.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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Sounds like something a chauvinistic BERNIE BRO(tm) would say.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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I guess the 300 publishing companies trying to get a hold of her right now are going to be pretty pissed when they find out her targeted supporters wouldn't want to read a free e-mail in less time than a commercial break.
he’s a fixbking cyborg or some shit. The

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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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Joe K wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:31 pmFor the millionth time, there have been at least 4 viable candidates in every race this time. And do you seriously not see the irony in a pundit who predicted Sanders wouldn’t crack 12% now claiming he’s underperforming?
I dunno. Those other candidates are from the center, which I am told is a completely different thing from the left. They're pro-corporate, basically Republican. And they have major flaws.

Bernie has been campaigning for five years. He's spent more than anyone except Bloomberg and Steyer. He has a great ground game. His opponents all have major flaws. He's participating in every debate. If, despite all that, people who voted for Bernie in 2016 are choosing other candidates this time, isn't that a problem?

And no, I don't see the irony in a pundit using math.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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Co-sign.

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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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I assume this is a separate issue, but if I believed Warren's progressive convictions anywhere close to where I believe Sanders', I would have absolutely chosen her.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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mister d wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:08 pm I assume this is a separate issue, but if I believed Warren's progressive convictions anywhere close to where I believe Sanders', I would have absolutely chosen her.
It's not separate, you woke bastard.*

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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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mister d wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:31 pm Seemed equally or more opinion than a layout of facts, but I'm willing to agree/disagree if there's a specific one you liked.
Sure. Here are the facts I was thinking of. I know that Markos is a pundit and thus will phrase things to support his point. And he's fought like hell for the Democratic Party for nearly twenty years, so of course he's going to be biased against Sanders. I just don't know if these facts are accurate and wondered what you thought.

Sanders' campaign was predicated on taking 30% of the delegates into the convention.

He (or they) hasn't done enough to win minority support. (This obviously includes a large element of opinion. Sanders is doing better with minority voters this time, right? At least the young ones?)

Youth turnout on Super Tuesday was abysmal.

Sanders skipped Selma and didn't try for Jim Clyburn's endorsement.

Sanders didn't make enough effort to build beyond the youth vote. (Maybe that's not answerable.)

Sanders focused on Obama-to-Trump white working class voters instead of focusing on Democrats.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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Steve, my unified theory of 2016 v. 2020 is that the 2016 primary was largely a policy debate while for many voters, 2020 is all about stopping Trump. In 2016, voter preferences weren’t focused too much on abstract electability issues. So it was more of a concrete, policy driven choice. Ultimately Hillary won that debate although Sanders did quite well given the gap in name recognition coming in.

The 2020 cycle is different in that for many voters, beating Trump is the overwhelming concern. For right or wrong, Biden has emerged as the consensus “electability” candidate. If it were about articulating policy or voter outreach, there’s no way Biden would beat Buttigieg, Harris or Klobuchar, let alone Sanders or Warren.

In fact, I want to take this discussion away from Sanders for a second because you obviously dislike him. Your preferred candidate, Warren, was hurt by this dynamic more than anyone. There’s a lot of anecdotal evidence that voters really liked her proposals but just didn’t think she can beat Trump. There’s not a single way in which Biden out-argued her on the issues and she also had a more robust campaign organization. And you can’t fault her for NOT BEING A DEMOCRAT, which you insist is a major problem for Sanders.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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Joe K wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:29 pm Steve, my unified theory of 2016 v. 2020 is that the 2016 primary was largely a policy debate while for many voters, 2020 is all about stopping Trump. In 2016, voter preferences weren’t focused too much on abstract electability issues. So it was more of a concrete, policy driven choice. Ultimately Hillary won that debate although Sanders did quite well given the gap in name recognition coming in.

The 2020 cycle is different in that for many voters, beating Trump is the overwhelming concern. For right or wrong, Biden has emerged as the consensus “electability” candidate. If it were about articulating policy or voter outreach, there’s no way Biden would beat Buttigieg, Harris or Klobuchar, let alone Sanders or Warren.

In fact, I want to take this discussion away from Sanders for a second because you obviously dislike him. Your preferred candidate, Warren, was hurt by this dynamic more than anyone. There’s a lot of anecdotal evidence that voters really liked her proposals but just didn’t think she can beat Trump. There’s not a single way in which Biden out-argued her on the issues and she also had a more robust campaign organization. And you can’t fault her for NOT BEING A DEMOCRAT, which you insist is a major problem for Sanders.
I'm pretty sure I agree with your unified theory 100%.

I agree that if we were talking about policy, candidates like Harris Buttigieg Klobuchar would come out ahead of Biden. But I also think they would probably come out ahead of Warren or Sanders. I guess it's possible they would eke out a win in the Democratic Primary, but then they'd lose in the fall. The ideological spectrum is real.

I'm not sure I "dislike" Sanders. But I'm angry at him for how (and how long) he ran his 2016 campaign. And I'm not real thrilled with the fact that he decided to run again despite his age and didn't get out when he lost half his 2016 support, leaving us with Joe Fucking Biden as the candidate.

If Sanders stays in it again past the point where he's clearly lost, then I will probably hate him. But God I hope it doesn't come to that.

Sanders' not being a Democrat is mostly relevant to me when it comes to people getting chagrined at the idea that the Democratic Party would favor other candidates who are Democrats. I don't think the Democrats And if he somehow does get the nomination, he will have a credibility problem when it comes to telling voters they should vote for Democrats in every race up and down the ballot.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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So I guess Bloomberg won't be funding Sanders if he wins after all.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... ics&wpmk=1
The promise of help has been welcomed by Biden, but advisers to Sanders have said they do not want any general election assistance from Bloomberg if the Vermont senator wins the nomination.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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degenerasian wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:03 pm You guys think the letter is too long? She did raise millions worth of your money and time. They shouldn't be short-changed on an explanation.
It's 1134 words and took me 4 minutes to read. That's what we're critiquing? We need everything boiled down to a fucking tweet now? People deserve what they're getting. So sorry it might take 5 minutes to explain overhauling a broken healthcare system and 200+ years of racial inequality. Let me boil it down to a couple bullet points.

We're fucked. That letter is half the length of the last dribble of piss that was written about 2 English people moving to Canada. We're so fucked if that the reaction to a letter like that.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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Yup. And this is a discussion amongst intelligent people. It's only going to get worse "out there".
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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No way I'm gonna vote for her now!
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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Steve of phpBB wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:15 pmSanders' campaign was predicated on taking 30% of the delegates into the convention.
Its a quote from a year ago, I have no idea if it was a strategy driver.
Steve of phpBB wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:15 pmHe (or they) hasn't done enough to win minority support. (This obviously includes a large element of opinion. Sanders is doing better with minority voters this time, right? At least the young ones?)
I think he doesn't pander and change his speech for his audience like a typical politician. His policies implicitly and explicitly help every non-wealthy demographic but he doesn't perpetually tie it together. Probably to a fault.
Steve of phpBB wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:15 pmYouth turnout on Super Tuesday was abysmal.
[strikethrough]on Super Tuesday[/[strikethrough]
A lot of my hopes were and are pinned on the vote getting younger and it didn't bear out. I think this is factual.
Steve of phpBB wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:15 pmSanders skipped Selma and didn't try for Jim Clyburn's endorsement.
If Clyburn's endorsement was legitimately there for the taking, its a huge misstep. If Sanders knows Clyburn was never going to endorse him, it would have been a waste of time and the story is just a way to imply negligence. I have no idea.
Steve of phpBB wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:15 pmSanders didn't make enough effort to build beyond the youth vote. (Maybe that's not answerable.)
This is where my twitter bubble comes in. Maybe he didn't, but it sure seems like he's addressing them more than any other candidate.
Steve of phpBB wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:15 pmSanders focused on Obama-to-Trump white working class voters instead of focusing on Democrats.
I think this goes back to point two, they're inside the brackets but not the explicit target.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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mister d wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:46 pm
Steve of phpBB wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:15 pmSanders' campaign was predicated on taking 30% of the delegates into the convention.
Its a quote from a year ago, I have no idea if it was a strategy driver.
Steve of phpBB wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:15 pmHe (or they) hasn't done enough to win minority support. (This obviously includes a large element of opinion. Sanders is doing better with minority voters this time, right? At least the young ones?)
I think he doesn't pander and change his speech for his audience like a typical politician. His policies implicitly and explicitly help every non-wealthy demographic but he doesn't perpetually tie it together. Probably to a fault.
Steve of phpBB wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:15 pmYouth turnout on Super Tuesday was abysmal.
[strikethrough]on Super Tuesday[/[strikethrough]
A lot of my hopes were and are pinned on the vote getting younger and it didn't bear out. I think this is factual.
Steve of phpBB wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:15 pmSanders skipped Selma and didn't try for Jim Clyburn's endorsement.
If Clyburn's endorsement was legitimately there for the taking, its a huge misstep. If Sanders knows Clyburn was never going to endorse him, it would have been a waste of time and the story is just a way to imply negligence. I have no idea.
Steve of phpBB wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:15 pmSanders didn't make enough effort to build beyond the youth vote. (Maybe that's not answerable.)
This is where my twitter bubble comes in. Maybe he didn't, but it sure seems like he's addressing them more than any other candidate.
Steve of phpBB wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:15 pmSanders focused on Obama-to-Trump white working class voters instead of focusing on Democrats.
I think this goes back to point two, they're inside the brackets but not the explicit target.
Going specifically to the minority support issue, I think Kos is drastically overgeneralizing a “problem” that applies largely just to black voters in the South. As I’ve pointed out those voters are somewhat conservative, although reliable Dems, such that it’s not clear how much they were in play for him anyways. Sanders has been competitive with black voters out west and had made major strides with Latino and Asian voters. I keep coming back to the fact that other candidates like Warren and Harris tried to run the campaign that Sanders supposedly should have run, but wound up doing far worse than him. Critics like Kos, who as I pointed out never thought Sanders had any chance to begin with, have never tried to grapple with that point.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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BSF21 wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:43 pm
degenerasian wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:03 pm You guys think the letter is too long? She did raise millions worth of your money and time. They shouldn't be short-changed on an explanation.
It's 1134 words and took me 4 minutes to read. That's what we're critiquing? We need everything boiled down to a fucking tweet now? People deserve what they're getting. So sorry it might take 5 minutes to explain overhauling a broken healthcare system and 200+ years of racial inequality. Let me boil it down to a couple bullet points.

We're fucked. That letter is half the length of the last dribble of piss that was written about 2 English people moving to Canada. We're so fucked if that the reaction to a letter like that.
And while it had to be expected to be leaked, it was written to her campaign team. FOH with it being too long.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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Valid point on the intended audience for EW's letter.

But some of you guys need to learn how to communicate on here without being such fucking pricks.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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Nonlinear FC wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:10 pmIt's not separate, you woke bastard.*

* - I'm trying to get some heat going in our Swampcrash tussle this week.
Nonlinear FC wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 5:14 pmValid point on the intended audience for EW's letter.

But some of you guys need to learn how to communicate on here without being such fucking pricks.
I'm just going to go out there and play my game like I do every week. If he wants to talk, he can talk. Hopefully he doesn't forget that nothing starts until noon tomorrow. Anything else? Ok. Thanks.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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As a dude with a tone problem because of my real life voice and mannerisms, I definitely do know when I come across like a dick, but far more often I'm oblivious.

The amount of explanation points, compliments, and extra greetings I have to put in emails is absurd. Everyone reads what I write "in my voice" and it sucks.

So sometimes, yes, I need to be nicer, but other times I don't.

So fuck off. /s
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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Johnnie wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 5:30 pm As a dude with a tone problem because of m...a...s...s...ac...h...u...s...e...t...t...s ...
Johnnie wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 8:13 pmOh shit, you just reminded me about toilet paper.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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mister d wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 5:34 pm
Johnnie wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 5:30 pm As a dude with a tone problem because of m...a...s...s...ac...h...u...s...e...t...t...s ...
You're not fahkin' wrong at all, dood.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Johnnie »

My only hope at the end of all of this: If the Democrat nominee wins election I want to see a full scale, going to the mattresses, investigation of the Trump Crime Enterprise.

If that doesn't happen, then this country is truly lost.

Congress still hasn't seen the full unredacted Mueller Report. If they never get to, then sure, Trump's gone, but the damage he wrought won't be undone.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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mister d wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 5:18 pm
Nonlinear FC wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:10 pmIt's not separate, you woke bastard.*

* - I'm trying to get some heat going in our Swampcrash tussle this week.
Nonlinear FC wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 5:14 pmValid point on the intended audience for EW's letter.

But some of you guys need to learn how to communicate on here without being such fucking pricks.
I'm just going to go out there and play my game like I do every week. If he wants to talk, he can talk. Hopefully he doesn't forget that nothing starts until noon tomorrow. Anything else? Ok. Thanks.
For the record, wasn't directing that at you.

Also, I'm a bit of a sensitive soul, apparently.

Apologies to the group for popping off like that.

Carry on.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by mister d »

Ha, I really thought you were still doing the fake trash talk for swampcrash.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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mister d wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 12:00 pm Ha, I really thought you were still doing the fake trash talk for swampcrash.
I'm pretty bad at shit talking.

*points to the sensitive soul stuff*

But, you know... fuck you?
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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Johnnie wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 8:13 pmOh shit, you just reminded me about toilet paper.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Nonlinear FC »

I didn't watch Warren last night, and this opinion piece is obviously just that... But given the ongoing discussion here, thought this was interesting.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... XOHuJ1GmAA
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

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Johnnie wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 8:13 pmOh shit, you just reminded me about toilet paper.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by HaulCitgo »

Legitimate concerns though. Fine line but lots of countries have no pharma R&D capacity so I'd say better to have the ability to develop drugs and deal with the economic concerns than have to rely on others.


"Democrats initially pushed to give HHS the power to strip intellectual property protections from any vaccine or medication whose price it deemed too high, multiple sources familiar with the negotiation told POLITICO. Versions of the legislation circulating late last week included this language. But pushback from the drug industry and Republicans prompted lawmakers to strike it.

Stephen Ubl, the head of the drug industry's main lobbying group, PhRMA, told reporters Wednesday that pharmaceutical companies won’t take the huge risks that come with drug and vaccine development if the government has the leverage to strip them of their patents over pricing disagreements. The money in the spending bill does not cover all of these risks, he added.

“If collaboration with the government even in a limited way results in a loss of intellectual property or the government setting the price, it is going to have a chilling effect on both investment and collaboration at a time when we need more of both,” Ubl said, adding he had not seen the language in the final coronavirus package."
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by mister d »

Johnnie wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 8:13 pmOh shit, you just reminded me about toilet paper.
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Re: 2020: The Democratic Presidential Nomination Thread

Post by Johnnie »

What are the odds they redraw AOC's district in New York so that she doesn't get elected next time?
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