The last dance

Okay . . . let's try this again.

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The last dance

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Anyone watching?
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Re: The last dance

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Barack Obama: “former Chicago resident”
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Re: The last dance

Post by Pruitt »

Going to watch it with my daughter the sports fanatic. She knows him as a legend and not really as a player.

Showed her his Basketball Reference page https://www.basketball-reference.com/pl ... ami01.html

One of many astounding stats - in 12 of his 14 full NBA seasons, he played at least 78 games. And in 9 of them he played every game. Even when they won 72 games, he started every single one.
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Re: The last dance

Post by tennbengal »

A_B wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:34 pmAnyone watching?
My entire twitter timeline apparently.

(I DVR’d the two tonight so will try at some point)
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Re: The last dance

Post by Joe K »

I watched it. I was a diehard fan of 90s basketball and while I’ll freely admit that teams and players today are on balance much better than back then, Jordan really was miles beyond any of his predecessors or contemporaries.
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Re: The last dance

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Sorry. Fuck Jordan.
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Re: The last dance

Post by Ryan »

There will never be anything as incongruous to me than Jordan in that Celtics game. It looks CGI’ed. That’s the same bunch of slow guys that were winning when I was an infant and he’s the same guy that tortured a team wearing sublimated mountains on a purple jersey when I was in college.
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Re: The last dance

Post by DSafetyGuy »

There may be more interesting stuff to come in the remaining eight episodes or this series is just a victim of its own hype. There really wasn't much new in the first two episodes (seriously, if you want Jordan highlights, you're on the internet). Aside from the "Chicago cocaine circus" line being funny (Orlando Woolridge was on the team, you can't be surprised there was a lot of blow around) and the explanation of Pippen's need to take that terrible deal, there wasn't a whole lot of new, worthwhile material. I also need to see footage of Bill Clinton at a Central Arkansas game or it's just stunt-casting in a documentary along with another "former Chicago resident".

The sliding around eras was confusing at times (when you establish that you are changing eras with a graphic, you do it every time). How in the world, when doing a giant documentary about the most psychopathically competitive person on the planet (it's about Jordan, not the 97-98 Bulls), is there no mention of the All-Star Game freeze out in the re-telling of his rookie season? It's possible they'll come back to it when Jordan actually plays against Isiah and then Magic, but what the fuck.

And seeing the scores of those early games in the 97-98 season made me almost ill. The greatest offensive player of all time is on the team that loses one game 80-78 and another by scoring just 30 in the second half. Ugh. Just terrible, terrible "basketball".
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Re: The last dance

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tennbengal wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:44 pm
A_B wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:34 pmAnyone watching?
My entire twitter timeline apparently.

(I DVR’d the two tonight so will try at some point)
If people were that into what looks like an above-average 30 for 30, then the NFL Draft is going to be a madhouse.
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Re: The last dance

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DSafetyGuy wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:33 am And seeing the scores of those early games in the 97-98 season made me almost ill. The greatest offensive player of all time is on the team that loses one game 80-78 and another by scoring just 30 in the second half. Ugh. Just terrible, terrible "basketball".
Yeah, basketball from c. 1994-2004 was at peak ugliness because teams defended way better than back in the 80s and had yet to discover the value of floor spacing and the 3 point shot. If you watch 80s games the halfcourt offenses are similarly restricted, but the double-teaming strategies were not sophisticated and the transition defense was abysmal, so it was still relatively easy to score. Jordan is probably the most influential offensive player ever but Dirk has gotta be pretty high up there. I remember watching the Mavs in the early-00s and being blown away seeing a team play at that pace with everyone on the team taking outside shots.
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Re: The last dance

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One of my kids wanted to know if Jordan was still alive, and when she learned he was questioned why all of this was being done about a guy who was still alive and wouldn't Kobe Bryant have been a better subject since he's actually dead.
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Re: The last dance

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Joe K wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:43 am
DSafetyGuy wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:33 am And seeing the scores of those early games in the 97-98 season made me almost ill. The greatest offensive player of all time is on the team that loses one game 80-78 and another by scoring just 30 in the second half. Ugh. Just terrible, terrible "basketball".
Yeah, basketball from c. 1994-2004 was at peak ugliness because teams defended way better than back in the 80s and had yet to discover the value of floor spacing and the 3 point shot. If you watch 80s games the halfcourt offenses are similarly restricted, but the double-teaming strategies were not sophisticated and the transition defense was abysmal, so it was still relatively easy to score. Jordan is probably the most influential offensive player ever but Dirk has gotta be pretty high up there. I remember watching the Mavs in the early-00s and being blown away seeing a team play at that pace with everyone on the team taking outside shots.
This checks out. Last week, during the middle of the day, NBA TV had on Game 3 of the 1983 Western Conference Semis with the generic description of an "overtime thriller". With that vague description, I was hoping for some Magic Johnson excellence. Nope. Even Jamaal Wilkes' line drive jumper (and he, like many other players, was constantly open in the 15-to-17 foot range) couldn't keep my interest to the end of the the first quarter.
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Re: The last dance

Post by Joe K »

DSafetyGuy wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:55 am
Joe K wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:43 am
DSafetyGuy wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:33 am And seeing the scores of those early games in the 97-98 season made me almost ill. The greatest offensive player of all time is on the team that loses one game 80-78 and another by scoring just 30 in the second half. Ugh. Just terrible, terrible "basketball".
Yeah, basketball from c. 1994-2004 was at peak ugliness because teams defended way better than back in the 80s and had yet to discover the value of floor spacing and the 3 point shot. If you watch 80s games the halfcourt offenses are similarly restricted, but the double-teaming strategies were not sophisticated and the transition defense was abysmal, so it was still relatively easy to score. Jordan is probably the most influential offensive player ever but Dirk has gotta be pretty high up there. I remember watching the Mavs in the early-00s and being blown away seeing a team play at that pace with everyone on the team taking outside shots.
This checks out. Last week, during the middle of the day, NBA TV had on Game 3 of the 1983 Western Conference Semis with the generic description of an "overtime thriller". With that vague description, I was hoping for some Magic Johnson excellence. Nope. Even Jamaal Wilkes' line drive jumper (and he, like many other players, was constantly open in the 15-to-17 foot range) couldn't keep my interest to the end of the the first quarter.
I watched the second half of Lakers-Celtics Finals game from 1985 (or maybe 1987) a week or so ago. Amazing how much the game has changed. Other than a few plays by Magic, no one really drove to the hoop out of halfcourt sets (it was all slow-developing postups and mid-range jumpers). But even Magic looked really slow compared to modern guards. So I can see why Jordan's athletic plays blew people's minds when he got into the league.
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Re: The last dance

Post by duff »

I just watched game 1 of the 97 finals between the Jazz and Bulls. So many turn around fade away jumpers from 12-15 feet. And plenty of ugly shots. I guess the defense was pretty solid, but both teams were sloppy as hell. But it was a joy watching Jordan and Malone at the top of their games, along with Pippen and Stockton. Everyone else was pretty shit. Rodman had so many piss poor shots and his defense on Malone was horrible. Kukoc had no mental at all. How did Bryon Russell even have a job? His shooting was atrocious and his defense was worse. I remember that he was supposed to be stopper.
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Re: The last dance

Post by Steve of phpBB »

brian wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 10:01 pm Sorry. Fuck Jordan.
Heh
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: The last dance

Post by Ryan »

Russell then hit 5 of 8 threes in Game 6, including a game-tying one with less than 2 minutes.
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Re: The last dance

Post by tennbengal »

Rex wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:41 am
tennbengal wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:44 pm
A_B wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:34 pmAnyone watching?
My entire twitter timeline apparently.

(I DVR’d the two tonight so will try at some point)
If people were that into what looks like an above-average 30 for 30, then the NFL Draft is going to be a madhouse.
Oh, it’s gonna be a madhouse. First actual live sporting related “event” in five weeks? The numbers should be eye-popping.
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Re: The last dance

Post by brian »

tennbengal wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:06 pm
Rex wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:41 am
tennbengal wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:44 pm
A_B wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 8:34 pmAnyone watching?
My entire twitter timeline apparently.

(I DVR’d the two tonight so will try at some point)
If people were that into what looks like an above-average 30 for 30, then the NFL Draft is going to be a madhouse.
Oh, it’s gonna be a madhouse. First actual live sporting related “event” in five weeks? The numbers should be eye-popping.
You have the non-zero chance that it devolves into a complete live shitshow too, so lots of gawking possibilities.
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Re: The last dance

Post by tennbengal »

There’s also this - I can’t be the only bored sports zealot who has paid WAY more attention to the draft run-up than normal given that there has been nothing else to do - I know I have way more thoughts and impressions on players down to the sixth round or so than i ever have before.
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Re: The last dance

Post by govmentchedda »

tennbengal wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:20 pm There’s also this - I can’t be the only bored sports zealot who has paid WAY more attention to the draft run-up than normal given that there has been nothing else to do - I know I have way more thoughts and impressions on players down to the sixth round or so than i ever have before.
I hate the NFL and all it stands for, and I'm interested in the draft for the first time in years.
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Re: The last dance

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Maybe it’s because I haven’t revisited the era recently or that my Dad was a huge Bulls fan during the second three-peat (they just happened to move up there right at the same exact time he announced the comeback), but I really enjoyed it.
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Re: The last dance

Post by Pruitt »

Watched the first two episodes with my daughter. Felt like an old man as I filled her in on some of the details.

Really enjoying it, but one thing I find interesting - the shots of MJ sitting in his house talking, you can see the different levels of what is a glass of some kind of whiskey on the table next to him. Early on in the first episode it seems to be a nice 3-4 ounce drink. But in later shots (that were clearly shot earlier as it;s still bright outside) the glass is filled to the rim. Must be 8-10 ounces in there.

And man, Jerry Krause is not easy on the eyes.
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Re: The last dance

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Pruitt wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 3:04 pm Really enjoying it, but one thing I find interesting - the shots of MJ sitting in his house talking, you can see the different levels of what is a glass of some kind of whiskey on the table next to him. Early on in the first episode it seems to be a nice 3-4 ounce drink. But in later shots (that were clearly shot earlier as it;s still bright outside) the glass is filled to the rim. Must be 8-10 ounces in there.
ha
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Re: The last dance

Post by blundercrush »

The doc itself is fine, I doubt it would be as big if we weren't so thirsty for something to take our mind off of what's going on. The highlights of Jordan getting buckets in the face of much more hands on defense and through a lot more contact than is legal in today's game is incredible.
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Re: The last dance

Post by Joe K »

blundercrush wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:39 pm The doc itself is fine, I doubt it would be as big if we weren't so thirsty for something to take our mind off of what's going on. The highlights of Jordan getting buckets in the face of much more hands on defense and through a lot more contact than is legal in today's game is incredible.
Are you talking about in the 80s, when Jordan was ineptly guarded by the likes of Rick Carlisle, or in the 90s, when the defense looked good largely because the floor spacing was so bad? Because for all the talk about "softer" defense today, guys like Kawhi, Iguodala, Paul George, Jimmy Butler, Giannis, and LeBron would be much tougher defenders for Jordan than the players he actually faced.
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Re: The last dance

Post by EdRomero »

Rick Carlisle who averaged under 10 minutes a game and retired in 1990 is a really relevant name to bring up when talking about Jordan.
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Re: The last dance

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EdRomero wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:49 pm Rick Carlisle who averaged under 10 minutes a game and retired in 1990 is a really relevant name to bring up when talking about Jordan.
Well the doc went out of its way to mention him. I assume because he became a successful coach.
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Re: The last dance

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Joe K wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:35 pm
blundercrush wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:39 pm The doc itself is fine, I doubt it would be as big if we weren't so thirsty for something to take our mind off of what's going on. The highlights of Jordan getting buckets in the face of much more hands on defense and through a lot more contact than is legal in today's game is incredible.
Are you talking about in the 80s, when Jordan was ineptly guarded by the likes of Rick Carlisle, or in the 90s, when the defense looked good largely because the floor spacing was so bad? Because for all the talk about "softer" defense today, guys like Kawhi, Iguodala, Paul George, Jimmy Butler, Giannis, and LeBron would be much tougher defenders for Jordan than the players he actually faced.
Well we agree no one played defense in the 80's. No I am talking about the 90's, when more physical defense was allowed. He scored like crazy in spite of that https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/290 ... ss-touched. This has nothing to do with modern players.

If you are actually talking about MJ playing in the modern era and knowing to focus more on 3pt shooting in practice...I think he goes 2nd to Lebron at worst.
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Re: The last dance

Post by Joe K »

A_B wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:52 pm
EdRomero wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:49 pm Rick Carlisle who averaged under 10 minutes a game and retired in 1990 is a really relevant name to bring up when talking about Jordan.
Well the doc went out of its way to mention him. I assume because he became a successful coach.
Yeah, I used him as an example because the scene in the doc was such an amusing example of a defender looking completely overmatched athletically. The announcer actually said “Carlisle wants his mommy!”

As for 90s v. today I’d agree that harder fouls were permitted then. But otherwise defense wasn’t actually better. The illegal defense rules were stricter then so teams couldn’t run zones and were more limited in how they defended players away from the ball. And perimeter players now are just so much bigger and more athletic overall. Part of what made the Bulls so great is that they had so many tall athletic wing defenders, which was a total anomaly back then. Now you have teams like last year’s Raptors that had former DPOY Marc Gasol, 2x former DPOY Kawhi, two other great wing defenders in Siakam and Green, both of whom are over 6’6”, plus Ibaka who is one of the best shotblockers of his era. The Warriors could be similarly ridiculous on defense with Draymond, Iguodala, Klay and KD. That’s a lot of versatility and interchangeable players.
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Re: The last dance

Post by Nonlinear FC »

Giff wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:33 pm Maybe it’s because I haven’t revisited the era recently or that my Dad was a huge Bulls fan during the second three-peat (they just happened to move up there right at the same exact time he announced the comeback), but I really enjoyed it.
I haven't truly followed the NBA for the last 15 years or so, after having been a huge fan during the 80s and 90s. So, yeah, I'm kind of in the same boat. I watched the first one and will definitely stick with it.
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Re: The last dance

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The reaction to Harden scoring 49 and 63 while losing two games to the #1 seed would be the exact opposite.
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Re: The last dance

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Giff wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:06 am The reaction to Harden scoring 49 and 63 while losing two games to the #1 seed would be the exact opposite.
Or how about LBJ averaging 34/9/9 for the entire 2018 playoffs, hitting multiple buzzer beaters, and making the Finals on a team where JR Smith, George Hill and Jeff Green were in the top-5 in playoffs minutes played — but not getting too much credit because he then got swept by the most talented team ever assembled?
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Re: The last dance

Post by DSafetyGuy »

I also forgot to mention how the 1982 NCAA title game is now framed as "Jordan hitting a championship-winning shot" when for the first 30+ years it was "how about this preposterous brain fart by Georgetown's Fred Brown".
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Re: The last dance

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DSafetyGuy wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:50 am I also forgot to mention how the 1982 NCAA title game is now framed as "Jordan hitting a championship-winning shot" when for the first 30+ years it was "how about this preposterous brain fart by Georgetown's Fred Brown".
Yeah, THAT was fucking bizarre. I'm watching that and had to look it up because they made it look/sound like Jordan hit a fucking buzzer beater.

C'mon with that...
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Re: The last dance

Post by Steve of phpBB »

I recorded it, watched the first episode last night.

I did not expect to see a clip of one of my childhood sports heroes - Karl-Heinz Granitza.

They briefly mentioned this, but before the Bulls drafted Jordan, the Chicago Sting's indoor team had twice the Bulls' attendance. Then after drafting Jordan, the Bulls had sellouts for something like 600 games in a row.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: The last dance

Post by Giff »

To be fair, they've been over-hyping that shot for years.
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Re: The last dance

Post by sancarlos »

DSafetyGuy wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:50 am I also forgot to mention how the 1982 NCAA title game is now framed as "Jordan hitting a championship-winning shot" when for the first 30+ years it was "how about this preposterous brain fart by Georgetown's Fred Brown".
Exactly the way I remember it. I watched it live, and all the postgame discussion was on Fred Brown, not Jordan.
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Re: The last dance

Post by DaveInSeattle »

DSafetyGuy wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:50 am I also forgot to mention how the 1982 NCAA title game is now framed as "Jordan hitting a championship-winning shot" when for the first 30+ years it was "how about this preposterous brain fart by Georgetown's Fred Brown".
I thought the same thing...I've always remembered that game as 'Jordan hits shot...Brown makes terrible mistake'.
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Re: The last dance

Post by HaulCitgo »

Yeah but seeing as though the guy is synonymous with NBA basketball, Giff is right that it's been morphing into that for years and years and years now, not to mention that as compared to 4 corners that probably counts as a game winner for Dean. Even Jordan mentioned it as monumental for his confidence and that's really the uniqueness to his game. The guy basically never lost in crunchtime. Even then he wasn't necessarily the most explosive (Shawn Kemp) or the quickest (Iverson), was more that he willed wins in pretty much every big game he played once he got past Detroit. And he completely revamped his game to keep dominating into old age. You could look at Jordan as part of the evolution of the league into a long range shooting gimmick.
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Re: The last dance

Post by DSafetyGuy »

In this case, we really ought to think of Dan Dakich as one of the best defenders in college basketball history, as he did most of the heavy lifting in holding the Naismith and Wooden Award-winning Jordan to 13 points in his final collegiate game.
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