The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart
Responsible American, teaching his young boys about guns, kills daughter.
Of course this reminds me of that Onion article where America laments about an unfixable gun problem in the only country on the planet with the problem.
Of course this reminds me of that Onion article where America laments about an unfixable gun problem in the only country on the planet with the problem.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart
Pretty telling about the violent state of this country that when my partner yelled "Oh my God" this morning while reading the news, I figured she was reacting to the Arkansas mass shooting, when in fact she was reading about yesterday's other mass shooting, the one in the Bronx.
Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart
It's only a mass shooting if it's a crazed white guy or veteran.
Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart
There was a school shooting this morning, which was barely even a blip on the news radar. A kid was shot, in the hallway, and later died. And they didn't cancel classes for the day.
School shootings are now so common they can't even cancel school for the day?
School shootings are now so common they can't even cancel school for the day?
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart
The justified unrest in Minneapolis, Louisville and elsewhere happening under this particular despot in the WH and the white nationalists that make up a significant portion of law enforcement coupled with the ignoring of the open carry bearded militia types storming capitol buildings in the last few weeks is a particular tinder keg that has been one of my nightmare scenarios since we drifted into this timeline in 2016.
Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart
And Howard retweeted someone exposing an undercover cop instigating the riots. Too many want this type to shit to happentennbengal wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 8:33 am The justified unrest in Minneapolis, Louisville and elsewhere happening under this particular despot in the WH and the white nationalists that make up a significant portion of law enforcement coupled with the ignoring of the open carry bearded militia types storming capitol buildings in the last few weeks is a particular tinder keg that has been one of my nightmare scenarios since we drifted into this timeline in 2016.
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I'll tell you that this is probably as low as I've felt about this country. Discussions with teenagers about this stuff are not easy, but they're made easier when the teenager in the discussion is informed and concerned for all the right reasons. And this is my youngest, not the college student. Hard discussions as parents are supposed to be about first loves and breakups and the foibles of youth, not the crumbling of the entire nation.
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Saw that myself. Wary of putting too much trust in that yet until it's verified. It fits what I want to believe too nicely.EdRomero wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 8:40 amAnd Howard retweeted someone exposing an undercover cop instigating the riots. Too many want this type to shit to happentennbengal wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 8:33 am The justified unrest in Minneapolis, Louisville and elsewhere happening under this particular despot in the WH and the white nationalists that make up a significant portion of law enforcement coupled with the ignoring of the open carry bearded militia types storming capitol buildings in the last few weeks is a particular tinder keg that has been one of my nightmare scenarios since we drifted into this timeline in 2016.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart
I don’t know how you would verify it but the video is suspicious as hell. The guy was very methodical about breaking windows—it certainly didn’t look like a spontaneous act of rage. There’s also a text message convo online that’s purportedly the ex-wife/fiancée of a St. Paul PD officer identifying him as the guy.govmentchedda wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 9:17 amSaw that myself. Wary of putting too much trust in that yet until it's verified. It fits what I want to believe too nicely.EdRomero wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 8:40 amAnd Howard retweeted someone exposing an undercover cop instigating the riots. Too many want this type to shit to happentennbengal wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 8:33 am The justified unrest in Minneapolis, Louisville and elsewhere happening under this particular despot in the WH and the white nationalists that make up a significant portion of law enforcement coupled with the ignoring of the open carry bearded militia types storming capitol buildings in the last few weeks is a particular tinder keg that has been one of my nightmare scenarios since we drifted into this timeline in 2016.
Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart
Every Minneapolis cop knows right now they’re just one trigger pull away from being a hero to the right.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart
It was SO deliberate, and he was acting so weird, it just looks...off. So, yeah, I find it believable.Joe K wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 9:27 amI don’t know how you would verify it but the video is suspicious as hell. The guy was very methodical about breaking windows—it certainly didn’t look like a spontaneous act of rage. There’s also a text message convo online that’s purportedly the ex-wife/fiancée of a St. Paul PD officer identifying him as the guy.govmentchedda wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 9:17 amSaw that myself. Wary of putting too much trust in that yet until it's verified. It fits what I want to believe too nicely.EdRomero wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 8:40 amAnd Howard retweeted someone exposing an undercover cop instigating the riots. Too many want this type to shit to happentennbengal wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 8:33 am The justified unrest in Minneapolis, Louisville and elsewhere happening under this particular despot in the WH and the white nationalists that make up a significant portion of law enforcement coupled with the ignoring of the open carry bearded militia types storming capitol buildings in the last few weeks is a particular tinder keg that has been one of my nightmare scenarios since we drifted into this timeline in 2016.
Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart
Yup. And I fear race riots are about the only thing that can throw the 2020 election to Trump. We see racism and police violence. Joe Voter will see anarchy and dark people out of control.tennbengal wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 8:33 am The justified unrest in Minneapolis, Louisville and elsewhere happening under this particular despot in the WH and the white nationalists that make up a significant portion of law enforcement coupled with the ignoring of the open carry bearded militia types storming capitol buildings in the last few weeks is a particular tinder keg that has been one of my nightmare scenarios since we drifted into this timeline in 2016.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart
I saw all of that. The wariness is in linking it to that cop based on that text thread.Joe K wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 9:27 amI don’t know how you would verify it but the video is suspicious as hell. The guy was very methodical about breaking windows—it certainly didn’t look like a spontaneous act of rage. There’s also a text message convo online that’s purportedly the ex-wife/fiancée of a St. Paul PD officer identifying him as the guy.govmentchedda wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 9:17 amSaw that myself. Wary of putting too much trust in that yet until it's verified. It fits what I want to believe too nicely.EdRomero wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 8:40 amAnd Howard retweeted someone exposing an undercover cop instigating the riots. Too many want this type to shit to happentennbengal wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 8:33 am The justified unrest in Minneapolis, Louisville and elsewhere happening under this particular despot in the WH and the white nationalists that make up a significant portion of law enforcement coupled with the ignoring of the open carry bearded militia types storming capitol buildings in the last few weeks is a particular tinder keg that has been one of my nightmare scenarios since we drifted into this timeline in 2016.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart
The umbrella seemed like a tell as well. Not a tell that it's fake or anything, but a tell that it is someone trying to further conceal their identity in a manner that I had not seen before.govmentchedda wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 10:24 amI saw all of that. The wariness is in linking it to that cop based on that text thread.Joe K wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 9:27 amI don’t know how you would verify it but the video is suspicious as hell. The guy was very methodical about breaking windows—it certainly didn’t look like a spontaneous act of rage. There’s also a text message convo online that’s purportedly the ex-wife/fiancée of a St. Paul PD officer identifying him as the guy.govmentchedda wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 9:17 amSaw that myself. Wary of putting too much trust in that yet until it's verified. It fits what I want to believe too nicely.EdRomero wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 8:40 amAnd Howard retweeted someone exposing an undercover cop instigating the riots. Too many want this type to shit to happentennbengal wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 8:33 am The justified unrest in Minneapolis, Louisville and elsewhere happening under this particular despot in the WH and the white nationalists that make up a significant portion of law enforcement coupled with the ignoring of the open carry bearded militia types storming capitol buildings in the last few weeks is a particular tinder keg that has been one of my nightmare scenarios since we drifted into this timeline in 2016.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart
Maybe I'm far removed, not being American, but I don't understand what the county prosecutor and AG are talking about. They should have charged the police officer immediately. There might be doubt? We have to do the right thing? Crazy.Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 10:17 amYup. And I fear race riots are about the only thing that can throw the 2020 election to Trump. We see racism and police violence. Joe Voter will see anarchy and dark people out of control.tennbengal wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 8:33 am The justified unrest in Minneapolis, Louisville and elsewhere happening under this particular despot in the WH and the white nationalists that make up a significant portion of law enforcement coupled with the ignoring of the open carry bearded militia types storming capitol buildings in the last few weeks is a particular tinder keg that has been one of my nightmare scenarios since we drifted into this timeline in 2016.
And then the police arrest Omar Jimenez? it's not like he works for some podunk new agency.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart
The police, AG and County prosecutor are all on the same team. They work together every day. Far too often, there is a feeling from AGs and prosecutors that it's their job to protect the police. IMO, I think it's their job to protect the integrity of law enforcement by weeding out bad cops and holding police misconduct to the highest standards.degenerasian wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 10:28 amMaybe I'm far removed, not being American, but I don't understand what the county prosecutor and AG are talking about. They should have charged the police officer immediately. There might be doubt? We have to do the right thing? Crazy.Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 10:17 amYup. And I fear race riots are about the only thing that can throw the 2020 election to Trump. We see racism and police violence. Joe Voter will see anarchy and dark people out of control.tennbengal wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 8:33 am The justified unrest in Minneapolis, Louisville and elsewhere happening under this particular despot in the WH and the white nationalists that make up a significant portion of law enforcement coupled with the ignoring of the open carry bearded militia types storming capitol buildings in the last few weeks is a particular tinder keg that has been one of my nightmare scenarios since we drifted into this timeline in 2016.
And then the police arrest Omar Jimenez? it's not like he works for some podunk new agency.
To play devil's advocate here, while the Floyd video looks really damned definitive and horrendous, we don't know what happened. While beating Rodney King was wrong and went too far, it becomes understandable when you learn that the cops chased him at over 130 mph through city streets and due to being on PCP, he was able to withstand superhuman amounts of force in efforts to restrain him. I don't condone police violence, but when tasers and 10 cops can't control a violent offender fighting them due to being loaded up on drugs, what would you do in that situation? Not to mention the adrenaline rush of the car chase.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart
Local prosecutors work with the cops in every case they do, all day, every day. So they cannot be objective when it comes to cop violence. Their instinct is to identify with the cops. Plus they know that they need police support going forward, so even if they want to charge a cop, they will be reluctant because it's against their self-interest.degenerasian wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 10:28 amMaybe I'm far removed, not being American, but I don't understand what the county prosecutor and AG are talking about. They should have charged the police officer immediately. There might be doubt? We have to do the right thing? Crazy.
I have a good friend from law school who has been a prosecutor in Oakland CA for 25 years. Good guy, reasonable guy, won't prosecute where there's any question about the evidence. A couple of weeks ago he sent me a pic of himself wearing a "thin blue line flag" mask.
I lost my shit, but he just said he needs to support the cops. I don't think he gets the difference between supporting cops and opposing people who oppose bad shootings (or knee-murders).
(This is one of the reasons why it is important to have a strong federal civil rights presence at DOJ. And yet another fucking reason why there's a massive difference between Dems and Republicans generally and between Biden and Trump specifically, and why we all should be willing to crawl across broken glass to vote for Biden in November.)
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart
Yup.The Sybian wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 10:50 amThe police, AG and County prosecutor are all on the same team. They work together every day. Far too often, there is a feeling from AGs and prosecutors that it's their job to protect the police. IMO, I think it's their job to protect the integrity of law enforcement by weeding out bad cops and holding police misconduct to the highest standards.
To play devil's advocate here, while the Floyd video looks really damned definitive and horrendous, we don't know what happened. While beating Rodney King was wrong and went too far, it becomes understandable when you learn that the cops chased him at over 130 mph through city streets and due to being on PCP, he was able to withstand superhuman amounts of force in efforts to restrain him. I don't condone police violence, but when tasers and 10 cops can't control a violent offender fighting them due to being loaded up on drugs, what would you do in that situation? Not to mention the adrenaline rush of the car chase.
Here's the thing, though. If the video was of a non-cop kneeling on a guy's neck for 5-8 minutes until he was dead, the non-cop would be arrested regardless of adrenaline or what happened ten minutes ago. Perhaps he could make out a defense based on what the guy had done previously, but it's his burden to prove self-defense. The cops should be arrested, charged, booked, etc., and let the process go forward.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart
I thought Trump and the DOJ were handling this well, getting the FBI involved, calling for immediate investigation.Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 10:52 amLocal prosecutors work with the cops in every case they do, all day, every day. So they cannot be objective when it comes to cop violence. Their instinct is to identify with the cops. Plus they know that they need police support going forward, so even if they want to charge a cop, they will be reluctant because it's against their self-interest.degenerasian wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 10:28 amMaybe I'm far removed, not being American, but I don't understand what the county prosecutor and AG are talking about. They should have charged the police officer immediately. There might be doubt? We have to do the right thing? Crazy.
I have a good friend from law school who has been a prosecutor in Oakland CA for 25 years. Good guy, reasonable guy, won't prosecute where there's any question about the evidence. A couple of weeks ago he sent me a pic of himself wearing a "thin blue line flag" mask.
I lost my shit, but he just said he needs to support the cops. I don't think he gets the difference between supporting cops and opposing people who oppose bad shootings (or knee-murders).
(This is one of the reasons why it is important to have a strong federal civil rights presence at DOJ. And yet another fucking reason why there's a massive difference between Dems and Republicans generally and between Biden and Trump specifically, and why we all should be willing to crawl across broken glass to vote for Biden in November.)
Until that insane tweet last night which has undone all of the good work.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart
While I agree with you that Biden’s DOJ Civil Rights appointees would be significantly better than Trump’s, Biden has also been worse than almost any other Democrat on policing issues. The thread below has some context on this.Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 10:52 am (This is one of the reasons why it is important to have a strong federal civil rights presence at DOJ. And yet another fucking reason why there's a massive difference between Dems and Republicans generally and between Biden and Trump specifically, and why we all should be willing to crawl across broken glass to vote for Biden in November.)
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart
What the actual fuck?I thought Trump and the DOJ were handling this well, until that insane tweet last night which has undone all of the good work.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart
Amazing how he can shoot himself in the foot so many fucking times with a stupid ill-conceived tweet.degenerasian wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 10:59 am
I thought Trump and the DOJ were handling this well, getting the FBI involved, calling for immediate investigation.
Until that insane tweet last night which has undone all of the good work.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart
I really don't think it makes sense to relitigate the 1994 Crime Bill, especially with someone who was ten (?) at the time. But I didn't see anything in there suggesting that Biden opposed efforts to rein in police violence, or weaken DOJ's Civil Rights division, or otherwise protect bad cops.
There's a massive fucking difference between responding to a decades-long increase in violent crime by putting more cops on the street and defending a cop who kneels on someone's neck until he's dead.
There's a massive fucking difference between responding to a decades-long increase in violent crime by putting more cops on the street and defending a cop who kneels on someone's neck until he's dead.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart
I think so. The incident happened on Monday. By Tuesday evening/Wednesday morning, Trump called on the DOJ and the FBI to immediately expedite the investigation. I'm sure there are people who have been working around the clock the last couple of days.tennbengal wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 11:02 amWhat the actual fuck?I thought Trump and the DOJ were handling this well, until that insane tweet last night which has undone all of the good work.
If it wasn't for this outrageous tweet last night, we wouldn't have noticed the feds getting involved. But of course with Trump, it has to be about him and inciting violence. Now, it's all about the twitter war.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart
The militarization of local police forces, purportedly in response to “terrorism”, is an additional issue besides the 1994 Bill identified in that thread. While that’s not the same thing as defending cops who kill unjustly, it sure as hell contributes to the escalation of tension and instability in response to the ensuing protests.Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 11:12 am I really don't think it makes sense to relitigate the 1994 Crime Bill, especially with someone who was ten (?) at the time. But I didn't see anything in there suggesting that Biden opposed efforts to rein in police violence, or weaken DOJ's Civil Rights division, or otherwise protect bad cops.
There's a massive fucking difference between responding to a decades-long increase in violent crime by putting more cops on the street and defending a cop who kneels on someone's neck until he's dead.
(And if you think I’m too young to have an opinion on the 1994 Bill, I’ll remind you that I’ve lived in St. Louis from 2014-present, a time and place where police response to protests has been just a bit of an issue.)
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart
I certainly agree that militarization of police is a bad thing. But police violence against black folks has a long history, and most of the incidents of actual violence we end up hearing or reading about don't involve militarization. The cop in Minnesota used his knee.Joe K wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 11:25 amThe militarization of local police forces, purportedly in response to “terrorism”, is an additional issue besides the 1994 Bill identified in that thread. While that’s not the same thing as defending cops who kill unjustly, it sure as hell contributes to the escalation of tension and instability in response to the ensuing protests.
(And if you think I’m too young to have an opinion on the 1994 Bill, I’ll remind you that I’ve lived in St. Louis from 2014-present, a time and place where police response to protests has been just a bit of an issue.)
As far as your experience in St. Louis, I think living there from 2014 on makes you well situated to see the problems that exist *now*, twenty years after the Crime Bill passed. You are *much* better situated than I am. And certainly some of those problems you are knowledgeable about are traceable to the Crime Bill. But unless you were cognizant in real-time of the massive increase in violent crime in the decades leading up to 1994, I don't think you're in position to second guess the Crime Bill or judge anyone for supporting it.
Violent crime rates when up fivefold from the mid-1960s to the mid 1990s. And that increase correlated pretty much exactly with a massive expansion of the welfare state and the Supreme Court's expansion of the rights of criminal defendants. LBJ's "War on Poverty" started in 1964. The Civil Rights Act passed in 1964. "Miranda rights" became a thing in 1966. And from then until 1994, violent crime skyrocketed. And just as important, there was no end in sight. There was no reason to think crime rates wouldn't go up by another 500%.
If you didn't experience that, I don't think you can call anyone a bad guy for supporting the Crime Bill.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart
and the war on drugs, that was really racist against blacks.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart
Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 11:46 am [
As far as your experience in St. Louis, I think living there from 2014 on makes you well situated to see the problems that exist *now*, twenty years after the Crime Bill passed. You are *much* better situated than I am. And certainly some of those problems you are knowledgeable about are traceable to the Crime Bill. But unless you were cognizant in real-time of the massive increase in violent crime in the decades leading up to 1994, I don't think you're in position to second guess the Crime Bill or judge anyone for supporting it.
Violent crime rates when up fivefold from the mid-1960s to the mid 1990s. And that increase correlated pretty much exactly with a massive expansion of the welfare state and the Supreme Court's expansion of the rights of criminal defendants. LBJ's "War on Poverty" started in 1964. The Civil Rights Act passed in 1964. "Miranda rights" became a thing in 1966. And from then until 1994, violent crime skyrocketed. And just as important, there was no end in sight. There was no reason to think crime rates wouldn't go up by another 500%.
If you didn't experience that, I don't think you can call anyone a bad guy for supporting the Crime Bill.
This is very weird. History doesn't have to be lived to be understood, right?
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart
Not that I'm going to crawl over glass to defend Biden, but Clinton and other Dems who supported the bill have repudiated and apologized for their support in later years as well. I'd rather have someone who can recognize errors in judgment and apologize for them than someone who never acknowledges that they've been wrong before.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart
I think it does?
Maybe it needs to have been lived to be truly appreciated?
Because it's not about facts and figures, but about the things people were feeling at the time. I don't think those feelings can really be understood if you weren't there.
It's the difference between standing next to a waterfall, seeing the waterfall from a long way away, seeing a video or picture of the waterfall, and reading a description of it. All of those can give you an understanding, but the degree of understanding is different.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart
Though in your analogy it's important to acknowledge that even if you've never seen a waterfall in person, you should not pretend that it doesn't exist.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart
I think I get it now. You aren't talking about Biden, you're talking about yourself.Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 11:58 amI think it does?
Maybe it needs to have been lived to be truly appreciated?
Because it's not about facts and figures, but about the things people were feeling at the time. I don't think those feelings can really be understood if you weren't there.
It's the difference between standing next to a waterfall, seeing the waterfall from a long way away, seeing a video or picture of the waterfall, and reading a description of it. All of those can give you an understanding, but the degree of understanding is different.
You know what you need? A lyrical sucker punch to the face.
Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart
degenerasian wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 10:28 amAnd then the police arrest Omar Jimenez? it's not like he works for some podunk new agency.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart
So, what do you not get about what Jews in Germany in 1940 were feeling? Or slaves in Alabama, circa 1849?Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 11:58 amI think it does?
Maybe it needs to have been lived to be truly appreciated?
Because it's not about facts and figures, but about the things people were feeling at the time. I don't think those feelings can really be understood if you weren't there.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart
Chauvin has now been arrested.Johnnie wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 12:09 pmdegenerasian wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 10:28 amAnd then the police arrest Omar Jimenez? it's not like he works for some podunk new agency.
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart
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Re: The Important Sounds of Things Falling Apart
I have no idea what slaves in Alabama were feeling in 1849.DSafetyGuy wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 12:15 pmSo, what do you not get about what Jews in Germany in 1940 were feeling? Or slaves in Alabama, circa 1849?Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Fri May 29, 2020 11:58 amI think it does?
Maybe it needs to have been lived to be truly appreciated?
Because it's not about facts and figures, but about the things people were feeling at the time. I don't think those feelings can really be understood if you weren't there.
I have a little more sense of what Jews in Europe were feeling, because I've grown up with family members who lived under Nazi occupation and I've read various histories based on contemporaneous accounts. But still, someone who has read the The Diary of Anne Frank probably doesn't understand the feeling of being a Jew in occupied Europe nearly as well as Anne Frank did.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.