Science!

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:17 pm

Grrr. Using my phone. Swype is dumb sometimes.

sancarlos · Post by **sancarlos** » Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:44 pm

PETERSBURG, Ky. (AP) — TV's "Science Guy" Bill Nye planned to take the stage Tuesday night to defend evolution at a Kentucky museum that presents the history of the world through biblical stories during an event that has attracted intense interest in science and faith circles.

Nye and Creation Museum founder Ken Ham are debating a question that has nagged humankind: "How did we get here?"

Nye is a former TV star and Ham is prominent among Christians who believe the Bible tells a factual account of the Earth's beginnings.

Some scientists have been critical of Nye for agreeing to debate the head of a Christian ministry that is dismissive of evolution.

Jerry Coyne, a professor of ecology and evolution at the University of Chicago, wrote on his blog that "Nye's appearance will be giving money to organizations who try to subvert the mission Nye has had all his life: science education, particularly of kids." Coyne pointed out that the Creation Museum will be selling DVDs of the event.

The museum quickly sold out its 800 seats, thanks in part to Nye's celebrity as the former host of "Bill Nye The Science Guy," a 1990s science education TV program that is still played in some classrooms. The museum's supporters are typically known as creationists, for their belief that the Bible's stories about the beginning of the universe and creation of humans are historical fact.

Nye waded into the evolution debate with an online video in 2012 that urged parents not to pass their religious-based doubts about evolution on to their children. Ham rebutted Nye's statements with his own online video with comments from scientists who work at the museum.

More, at this link

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:54 pm

I see why Nye is doing it but yeah...it's just a dog and pony show. Ham will get killed trying to defend the idea that Jesus rode around on dinosaurs but people that already believe that aren't going to have their minds changed by Nye explaining the fossil record and carbon dating. It means nothing to them. Ham wins just by getting Nye to share a stage with him. Just by drawing headlines like this. That's why people like Ham and other YEC's should just be ignored.

Incidentally...doesn't Nye look just like Mike Shanahan in this picture?

Post by **brian** » Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:55 pm

I don't care where the money goes, if I'm ever anywhere near that museum I'm paying admission to see it. It's gotta be batshit crazy town in there.

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:57 pm

Ken Ham is one of the dumbest crackpot idiots I've ever listened to. His museum is a complete joke. They tout high numbers of visitors, but I have a feeling many visit out of a sense of curiosity or to laugh at the exhibits of men riding dinosaurs and such. I would have gone if I lived near by, but then I'd have to give them money, so maybe not. I saw a clip where the Dugger family visited the museum and Ham spoke with them. It made me extremely sad that these home schooled kids are being taught completely bogus scientific "facts," and will never comprehend even the most basic scientific issues.

While I like Nye and love his vehement attempts to educated the idiots by frequently appearing on FoxNews, I feel like this is a completely pointless endeavor that can only lead to embarrassing himself in the eyes of creationists. You can't convince a religious fanatic of anything outside of their brainwashings and Biblical teachings. Similarly, a creationist is never going to convince a non-brainwashed person into believing that their explanation makes sense. Other than "the Bible says so," they have nothing. It pisses me off, if true, that this will raise money for Ham's Genesis group, or whatever nonsense it will fund.

ETA: I don't even need to respond, J-Lo will eventually say the same thing anyways.

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:03 pm

brian wrote:I don't care where the money goes, if I'm ever anywhere near that museum I'm paying admission to see it. It's gotta be batshit crazy town in there.

You can watch it free online if you're interested.

Scottie · Post by **Scottie** » Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:18 pm

The Sybian wrote:While I like Nye and love his vehement attempts to educated the idiots by frequently appearing on FoxNews . . .

Oh, forfucksakes. Do you need it explained to you how many dozens of times Nye was on Larry King's CNN show? Disney? PBS? ABC's "Millionaire"? The Fucking Weather Channel? Blah blah blah?

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:04 pm

Scottie wrote:
The Sybian wrote:While I like Nye and love his vehement attempts to educated the idiots by frequently appearing on FoxNews . . .
Oh, forfucksakes. Do you need it explained to you how many dozens of times Nye was on Larry King's CNN show? Disney? PBS? ABC's "Millionaire"? The Fucking Weather Channel? Blah blah blah?

Actually, never seen him on any of those. Just see him on Fox when I go down the youtube wormhole from other marginally related topics. But point taken. Now Neil Degrasse Tyson I see everywhere, but I like him too damned much to allow myself to admit he is a media whore.

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:14 pm

That debate is going to the televised interpretation of a Facebook/YouTube comment/Reddit debate.

It's obvious Nye is the smarter, better person, but ultimately nothing is going to happen.

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:18 pm

Yeah, Fox is the only station where Nye has to answer questions like "How can there be volcanoes on the moon...it's not like we're burning fossil fuels up there"?

Scottie · Post by **Scottie** » Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:26 pm

It takes a very open mind to contemplate the enormogiganticness of the universe and then soundly conclude that no anthropomorphic deity absurdly built it but rather it was the result of random chemical reactions across massive spans of time. It takes a very closed mind to single out one American commercial media outlet as being in any way more or less retarded than any of the others.

P.D.X. · Post by **P.D.X.** » Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:31 pm

Scottie wrote:It takes a very closed mind to single out one American commercial media outlet as being in any way more or less retarded than any of the others.

Not if they're the loudest in the room.

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:34 pm

Scottie, Ham's position isn't that there's some sort of ambiguous anthropomorphic intelligence behind the creation of the universe...it's a literal interpretation of the book of Genesis.

Scottie · Post by **Scottie** » Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:36 pm

P.D.X. wrote:
Scottie wrote:It takes a very closed mind to single out one American commercial media outlet as being in any way more or less retarded than any of the others.
Not if they're the loudest in the room.

You're being forced to watch it? That sucks. Are you also being forced to listen to Justin Bieber recordings?

P.D.X. · Post by **P.D.X.** » Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:37 pm

Scottie wrote:
P.D.X. wrote:
Scottie wrote:It takes a very closed mind to single out one American commercial media outlet as being in any way more or less retarded than any of the others.
Not if they're the loudest in the room.
You're being forced to watch it? That sucks. Are you also being forced to listen to Justin Bieber recordings?

It was a metaphor.

Scottie · Post by **Scottie** » Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:40 pm

Jerloma wrote:Scottie, Ham's position isn't that there's some sort of ambiguous anthropomorphic intelligence behind the creation of the universe...it's a literal interpretation of the book of Genesis.

Never suggested otherwise.

If Ham believes his own bullshit (he may, who knows?) then he's an absolute whacko. If he doesn't believe his own bullshit, he's a successful businessman that sold snake oil to morons. Not the first guy to do so.

The problem with the debate is that Nye has to prove both a positive and a negative; that the universe is random and evolved and that Ham's Christianity is fiction. Ham, meanwhile, doesn't have to do anything but find various medicine show ways of saying "Yeah, but, G-d...".

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:01 pm

Yeah, the whole thing is based on the presupposition that the book is infallible and true and the circular argument that we know it's infallible and true because it says so. Complete fucking dog and pony show. "How could 4 days have passed before the sun was created?" Well, it's right there in Genesis, Mr. Nye. The more I think about it, this gets dumber and dumber.

Nye doesn't have to prove that the universe is random though. I don't think any of these science guys care if someone thinks God is behind and guides the science, as long the current theories that we have to the best of our knowledge are being used to teach science. It's problematic for the concept of natural selection as it would be more like supernatural selection and that would be a far more interesting debate if you ask me. "Hey the dude that took 14 billions years to make me cares if I jerk off."

Scottie · Post by **Scottie** » Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:22 pm

One of the natural beauties of science is that the more one learns, the more one discovers there becomes to learn; ever-unfolding, ever-opening possibilities of possibilities. Religion, on the other hand, can only move its own goalposts, as it were, and revise that G-d meant such and such a thing as justification of some abomination or other. "It's a true story because the lead character says so." Yeah. Religion is an Escher staircase of logic.

At least Nye is getting paid (and paid well) to debate a man who still seems to be struggling with the child's movie Jurassic Park.

One cannot help but lament it isn't dear ol' Christopher Hitchens sharing the stage with Ken Ham; it would be a beat down for the ages.

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:40 pm

Starts in 20 minutes. 4 seconds according to Ham.

Scottie · Post by **Scottie** » Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:18 pm

Intros, hello 'ello, five minutes each. Fine. So far so good. Then each get a 30-minute segment to elaborate on their premise? WTF? That's not a debate. No way am I spending the next half hour suffering through Ham's babbling mania.

Scottie · Post by **Scottie** » Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:27 pm

Okay! Ham completely dismissing Geology and the proven scientific age of the Grand Canyon because we didn't see it being "built".

Hmmmm . . . now that I think about it, I never saw the Sun being built. Hey, how'd that thing get up there anyway?

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:51 pm

That was fucking insane. I want so badly for Nye to ask him if he was there when Jesus died on the cross.

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:05 pm

Bowtie guy attempting to use science and math. Bold move.

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:06 pm

Scottie · Post by **Scottie** » Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:19 pm

Just put up the Hubble Deep Field photos and explain "light-years". Let everyone take in the Deep Field quietly for a while. That alone refutes this 6000-year idiocy. Hubble don't lie! Drop mic.

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:51 pm

Scottie wrote:Just put up the Hubble Deep Field photos and explain "light-years". Let everyone take in the Deep Field quietly for a while. That alone refutes this 6000-year idiocy. Hubble don't lie! Drop mic.

Nope. Didn't work.

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:27 pm

Scottie · Post by **Scottie** » Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:47 pm

Yeah, sadly that is how it sliced up and fried Ham in the end; Nye pointing out hard-core undebatable realities and Ham meekly responding "Um, Bill, there's this book... and it says right in the first sentence that Joe Spacemonster made all this". And Joe is the only witness there was; fortunately he wrote it all down for us. And so on.

Back to what I mentioned earlier; the guy is a businessman and no matter how much of a fool he made of himself today he just got a pile of publicity for his staggeringly rich company. No rational sane human being could be swayed by his sales pitch today; they weren't going to switch to his side anyway, as it were. He may, however, have picked up quite a few religiously insane types that had previously never heard of him.

Full marks to Nye for being as civilized and as gentle as he was in comporting himself. He could have really butchered Ham; many would have.

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:43 am

Scottie wrote:Full marks to Nye for being as civilized and as gentle as he was in comporting himself. He could have really butchered Ham; many would have.

Yeah, someone with much less patience like Dawkins would have been fun but I thought Nye did great. Ham made it clear that the only way his worldview made any sense was if you're a fundamentalist Christian as much as he attempted to paint it as Science.

BSF21 · Post by **BSF21** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:21 pm

Full props to Nye for this line: "Millions of people successfully reconcile science and religion every day. Why is Bill Ham unable to do so"?

The foundation of debate is respect for the other side, regardless of how batshit they may be. It was wonderful to watch Nye refuse to stoop to the level of "religion is dumb and therefore your argument is fundamentally flawed", and instead continue to throttle point after point and challenge someone to change his mind. He comes across as a man who would genuinely accept whatever discovery led him to, even if he was completely wrong beforehand.

P.D.X. · Post by **P.D.X.** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:05 pm

Scottie wrote:Okay! Ham completely dismissing Geology and the proven scientific age of the Grand Canyon because we didn't see it being "built".

You'd think erosion might be one of the more easily-grasped scientific concepts.

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:13 pm

He comes across as a man who would genuinely accept whatever discovery led him to, even if he was completely wrong beforehand.

As would anyone acting as a scientist. Once they don't do that, they've ceased doing science.

Scottie · Post by **Scottie** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:22 pm

P.D.X. wrote:
Scottie wrote:Okay! Ham completely dismissing Geology and the proven scientific age of the Grand Canyon because we didn't see it being "built".
You'd think erosion might be one of the more easily-grasped scientific concepts.

It was also a crafty (from his game plan) way of saying it; that "we didn't see those layers being put there". Cute, sneaking in intent. Cute, if one believes the Grand Canyon and everything else was built by some guy and the strata were laid down like someone making lasagna. I suppose the Grand Canyon can now capitalize on this by advertising that it is miraculously, paradoxically, 2800 times older than the very planet upon which it resides.

And, yeah, Nye (very much a proper professional) declared, like a worthy man of science, he was open minded to any new discoveries. Bring 'em on, he said. Ham on the other hand . . .

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:16 pm

Jerloma wrote:
He comes across as a man who would genuinely accept whatever discovery led him to, even if he was completely wrong beforehand.
As would anyone acting as a scientist. Once they don't do that, they've ceased doing science.

G-d carved that shit out with Occam's razor. You can choose to believe that wind a river slowly eroded rocks over time and created an indescribably large, some might even say grand, canyon. Or you can cut the bullshit and believe the much simpler answer, that G-d did it. Occam's razor favors Christianity. "G-d did it and doesn't want us to know how" is a much simpler explanation to all of life's questions. Suck it, science!

howard · Post by **howard** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:58 pm

Jerloma wrote:
He comes across as a man who would genuinely accept whatever discovery led him to, even if he was completely wrong beforehand.
As would anyone acting as a scientist. Once they don't do that, they've ceased doing science.

…and started doing climate science.

(i keed, i keed)

P.D.X. · Post by **P.D.X.** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:00 pm

I'm just curious at which point during the erosion process that the result goes from run-of-the-mill canyon to an act of divinity. There has to be some kind of metric, right?

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:07 pm

P.D.X. wrote:I'm just curious at which point during the erosion process that the result goes from run-of-the-mill canyon to an act of divinity. There has to be some kind of metric, right?

Did you watch it? He said that the flood is responsible for the grand canyon and all of it's fossils. That whole thing took 40 days.

P.D.X. · Post by **P.D.X.** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:12 pm

Jerloma wrote:
P.D.X. wrote:I'm just curious at which point during the erosion process that the result goes from run-of-the-mill canyon to an act of divinity. There has to be some kind of metric, right?
Did you watch it? He said that the flood is responsible for the grand canyon and all of it's fossils. That whole thing took 40 days.

No, I didn't watch it. Does he try to justify the fossils of aquatic animals by any chance?

Post by **Shirley** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:16 pm

So the flood dug out the canyon AND deposited fossils in the surrounding rocks? That's a neat trick.

Any explanation of how all of that limestone - fossilized coral and shells - got there in the first place?

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:25 pm

P.D.X. wrote:
Jerloma wrote:
P.D.X. wrote:I'm just curious at which point during the erosion process that the result goes from run-of-the-mill canyon to an act of divinity. There has to be some kind of metric, right?
Did you watch it? He said that the flood is responsible for the grand canyon and all of it's fossils. That whole thing took 40 days.
No, I didn't watch it. Does he try to justify the fossils of aquatic animals by any chance?

No. It seems like such an obvious question but you never hear creationists get asked that. Not even the fossils...how did all the fish die? You'd think that be a party for them.

Shirlry wrote:Any explanation of how all of that limestone - fossilized coral and shells - got there in the first place?

If you get a chance and want a good laugh, you should watch. It's unbelievable.