Champions League 2020-2021

Okay . . . let's try this again.

Moderators: Shirley, Sabo, brian, rass, DaveInSeattle

User avatar
Nonlinear FC
The Dude
Posts: 10741
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:09 pm

Re: Champions League 2020-2021

Post by Nonlinear FC »

mister d wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 4:29 pm Is there a formation where teams don't play with a true target or center-forward? I feel like Torres-Jesus-Sterling could be absolutely impossible to defend against, but not with Jesus trying to play Aguero's role and not just flipping Jesus and Torres.
Absolutely, happens all the time in formations with what is called a False 9. This is what Pep G and Maurinho created, though they play different styles of it.

The guy in the middle is more working to create triangles in lateral runs as the ball is switched moved/around. He's not the one pressing the backline so much as working to serve the other two forwards. Think about how Messi is often getting the ball played back to him at he top of the 18 in dangerous positions. In olden times (the 90s) they would've just posted him with the center back and had him make diagonal runs all the time.
You can lead a horse to fish, but you can't fish out a horse.
User avatar
govmentchedda
The Dude
Posts: 12672
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:36 pm

Re: Champions League 2020-2021

Post by govmentchedda »

Nonlinear FC wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 5:07 pm
mister d wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 4:29 pm Is there a formation where teams don't play with a true target or center-forward? I feel like Torres-Jesus-Sterling could be absolutely impossible to defend against, but not with Jesus trying to play Aguero's role and not just flipping Jesus and Torres.
Absolutely, happens all the time in formations with what is called a False 9. This is what Pep G and Maurinho created, though they play different styles of it.

The guy in the middle is more working to create triangles in lateral runs as the ball is switched moved/around. He's not the one pressing the backline so much as working to serve the other two forwards. Think about how Messi is often getting the ball played back to him at he top of the 18 in dangerous positions. In olden times (the 90s) they would've just posted him with the center back and had him make diagonal runs all the time.
The Soccer 101 podcast is FANTASTIC on stuff like this.
Until everything is less insane, I'm mixing weed with wine.
User avatar
Shirley
The Dude
Posts: 7516
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:32 pm

Re: Champions League 2020-2021

Post by Shirley »

Chelsea did something similar a few times in recent years (usually due to injuries). They ran a front line of Hazard, Pedro, and Willian - all dudes under 5'9".

And they had the opposite the other day, ending with a frontline of Giroud, Abraham, and Werner - three strikers.
Totally Kafkaesque
Baloney
The Big Lebowski
Posts: 1590
Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:55 am

Re: Champions League 2020-2021

Post by Baloney »

Dutch did it in the 2010 World Cup
Last edited by Baloney on Thu Dec 10, 2020 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
mister d
The Dude
Posts: 29047
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:15 am

Re: Champions League 2020-2021

Post by mister d »

Thinking about this more I guess we probably don't want to change our entire shape before Haaland comes in next year.
Johnnie wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 8:13 pmOh shit, you just reminded me about toilet paper.
User avatar
govmentchedda
The Dude
Posts: 12672
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:36 pm

Re: Champions League 2020-2021

Post by govmentchedda »

To me the most famous example of this is del Bosque playing Fabregas in this role in the 2012 Euros.

This is a pretty good write up about False 9
Until everything is less insane, I'm mixing weed with wine.
User avatar
mister d
The Dude
Posts: 29047
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:15 am

Re: Champions League 2020-2021

Post by mister d »

I'm going to read that more, but is it used as a fixed central role? I assume Sterling would stay on his side, but in my (very smart soccer) mind Torres and Jesus would both be circling through the middle and right to find the space that seems to be lacking against the better teams. Jesus just in the middle doesn't seem to work because he doesn't shoot immediately and is a really good tight passer.
Johnnie wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 8:13 pmOh shit, you just reminded me about toilet paper.
User avatar
Square Rob
Jesus Quintana
Posts: 769
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:43 pm

Re: Champions League 2020-2021

Post by Square Rob »

Not fixed central, but the key idea is to force the two central defenders to step forward to mark the false nine. This then creates space for runs from wide in behind. When played most effectively, the false nine will float across both of the two centrals and get them both focused and thinking about stepping forward.

To me this is explicitly why we’ve seen a significant return of the back three. It’s much more secure against just such a strategy. Weaker against a solid front 2 though. Genuinely expect to see a resurgence of 2 central forward players in the coming years.
User avatar
A_B
The Dude
Posts: 23319
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:36 am
Location: Getting them boards like a wolf in the chicken pen.

Re: Champions League 2020-2021

Post by A_B »

govmentchedda wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 5:00 pm
mister d wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 4:58 pm
govmentchedda wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 4:55 pm Ole out
Would be chaos for the weekend.
Completely here for it.
So ole played Leeds like a drum. Into the final four of league cup. A win at leister puts them two back. If this is bad I’m ok with it? Need silverware and obviously crashing out of champions league sucks but I think Sir Alex spoiled the fuck out of us.
You know what you need? A lyrical sucker punch to the face.
User avatar
govmentchedda
The Dude
Posts: 12672
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:36 pm

Re: Champions League 2020-2021

Post by govmentchedda »

A_B wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 11:54 pm
govmentchedda wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 5:00 pm
mister d wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 4:58 pm
govmentchedda wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 4:55 pm Ole out
Would be chaos for the weekend.
Completely here for it.
So ole played Leeds like a drum. Into the final four of league cup. A win at leister puts them two back. If this is bad I’m ok with it? Need silverware and obviously crashing out of champions league sucks but I think Sir Alex spoiled the fuck out of us.
Same. Nothing goes from "the sky is falling" to trophies like United fandom.
Until everything is less insane, I'm mixing weed with wine.
User avatar
DaveInSeattle
The Dude
Posts: 8385
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:51 am
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Champions League 2020-2021

Post by DaveInSeattle »

One of the pundits on the Guardian Football Weekly podcast started out the latest episode by bringing up this picture:

Image

Its pretty much a classic...
User avatar
mister d
The Dude
Posts: 29047
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:15 am

Re: Champions League 2020-2021

Post by mister d »

Have I asked yet if its stupid that I don't really want Messi?
Johnnie wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 8:13 pmOh shit, you just reminded me about toilet paper.
User avatar
govmentchedda
The Dude
Posts: 12672
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:36 pm

Re: Champions League 2020-2021

Post by govmentchedda »

You haven't, but I'd definitely take him for at least 3 more years, especially if Pep was managing the team.
Until everything is less insane, I'm mixing weed with wine.
User avatar
mister d
The Dude
Posts: 29047
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:15 am

Re: Champions League 2020-2021

Post by mister d »

Not that they aren't huge money and all that, but since I've been following they've bought almost exclusively under ~24 guys who are about to break out. Something about a 30+ star like Messi just makes the whole Champions League or bust thing feel like a no win.



(Walker and Gundogan were exceptions age-wise but both were brought in to fill specific roles, not to be stars.)
Johnnie wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 8:13 pmOh shit, you just reminded me about toilet paper.
User avatar
degenerasian
The Dude
Posts: 12302
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:22 pm

Re: Champions League 2020-2021

Post by degenerasian »

No shocker to see Haaland balling out after Mbappe did last night. Really tough call who you'd rather have.
Kung Fu movies are like porn. There's 1 on 1, then 2 on 1, then a group scene..
User avatar
mister d
The Dude
Posts: 29047
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:15 am

Re: Champions League 2020-2021

Post by mister d »

Jesus has to finish, for sure, but the announcers saying "if that's Aguero he goes right to goal" ignores that Aguero is far less likely to end up with that ball in the first place.
Johnnie wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 8:13 pmOh shit, you just reminded me about toilet paper.
User avatar
mister d
The Dude
Posts: 29047
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:15 am

Re: Champions League 2020-2021

Post by mister d »

Right about now, Monchengladbach must really be lamenting ... Cancelo Culture!!!
Johnnie wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 8:13 pmOh shit, you just reminded me about toilet paper.
User avatar
mister d
The Dude
Posts: 29047
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:15 am

Re: Champions League 2020-2021

Post by mister d »

Holy shit x2.
Johnnie wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 8:13 pmOh shit, you just reminded me about toilet paper.
User avatar
govmentchedda
The Dude
Posts: 12672
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:36 pm

Re: Champions League 2020-2021

Post by govmentchedda »

mister d wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:36 pm Holy shit x2.
Insane ending.
Until everything is less insane, I'm mixing weed with wine.
User avatar
mister d
The Dude
Posts: 29047
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:15 am

Re: Champions League 2020-2021

Post by mister d »

I kinda get the front three but still don't love Sterling out for another.
Johnnie wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 8:13 pmOh shit, you just reminded me about toilet paper.
User avatar
govmentchedda
The Dude
Posts: 12672
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:36 pm

Re: Champions League 2020-2021

Post by govmentchedda »

I threw a little at both underdogs to win today, and a little at them both in a parlay.
Until everything is less insane, I'm mixing weed with wine.
P.D.X.
The Dude
Posts: 5280
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:31 pm

Re: Champions League 2020-2021

Post by P.D.X. »

I bit on the Italian dog. Seems like a good matchup. Not feeling it for ze Germans.
User avatar
govmentchedda
The Dude
Posts: 12672
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:36 pm

Re: Champions League 2020-2021

Post by govmentchedda »

P.D.X. wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:15 pm I bit on the Italian dog. Seems like a good matchup. Not feeling it for ze Germans.
Gladbach are a right mess currently. Manager heading to Dortmund next season, but they can't sack him or they won't get the $$ from Dortmund. My wager on that one is based more on the fact that City are already up 2-0 and don't need a win. It's definitely the longer shot.
Until everything is less insane, I'm mixing weed with wine.
User avatar
mister d
The Dude
Posts: 29047
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:15 am

Re: Champions League 2020-2021

Post by mister d »

And Pep goes weirdly conservative in Champions League. Its not a bad bet, especially given the lineup they're running out.
Johnnie wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 8:13 pmOh shit, you just reminded me about toilet paper.
User avatar
mister d
The Dude
Posts: 29047
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:15 am

Re: Champions League 2020-2021

Post by mister d »

Any more hot bets today, Cheddz?
Johnnie wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 8:13 pmOh shit, you just reminded me about toilet paper.
User avatar
govmentchedda
The Dude
Posts: 12672
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:36 pm

Re: Champions League 2020-2021

Post by govmentchedda »

Hell naw
Until everything is less insane, I'm mixing weed with wine.
User avatar
govmentchedda
The Dude
Posts: 12672
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:36 pm

Re: Champions League 2020-2021

Post by govmentchedda »

Before this round started at all I put a little on Atletico to advance. It's going about as well as yesterday's wagers.
Until everything is less insane, I'm mixing weed with wine.
User avatar
Shirley
The Dude
Posts: 7516
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:32 pm

Re: Champions League 2020-2021

Post by Shirley »

God, N'golo Kante was incredible today. He was simply everywhere on the pitch. Such a likeable little dude too.
Totally Kafkaesque
User avatar
mister d
The Dude
Posts: 29047
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:15 am

Re: Champions League 2020-2021

Post by mister d »

Having the first leg at home will hopefully give Pep an advantage over his own ability to wildly overthink things and gameplan defensively.
Johnnie wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 8:13 pmOh shit, you just reminded me about toilet paper.
User avatar
mister d
The Dude
Posts: 29047
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:15 am

Re: Champions League 2020-2021

Post by mister d »

If I were a Dortmund fan I'd be absolutely furious right now.
Johnnie wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 8:13 pmOh shit, you just reminded me about toilet paper.
User avatar
Pruitt
The Dude
Posts: 18105
Joined: Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:02 am
Location: North Shore of Lake Ontario

Re: Champions League 2020-2021

Post by Pruitt »

Not news, but Liverpool looked like shit today.
"beautiful, with an exotic-yet-familiar facial structure and an arresting gaze."
User avatar
mister d
The Dude
Posts: 29047
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:15 am

Re: Champions League 2020-2021

Post by mister d »

Would love an unfiltered commentary by Southgate on it.
Johnnie wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 8:13 pmOh shit, you just reminded me about toilet paper.
User avatar
govmentchedda
The Dude
Posts: 12672
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:36 pm

Re: Champions League 2020-2021

Post by govmentchedda »

Pruitt wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:26 pm Not news, but Liverpool looked like shit today.
I had a little on the Reds to win, and a little on the Sky Blues to win by 2 or more. Not a good day at the window.
Until everything is less insane, I'm mixing weed with wine.
User avatar
A_B
The Dude
Posts: 23319
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:36 am
Location: Getting them boards like a wolf in the chicken pen.

Re: Champions League 2020-2021

Post by A_B »

govmentchedda wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:49 pm
Pruitt wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:26 pm Not news, but Liverpool looked like shit today.
I had a little on the Reds to win, and a little on the Sky Blues to win by 2 or more. Not a good day at the window.
14-1 Reds last I saw!
You know what you need? A lyrical sucker punch to the face.
User avatar
mister d
The Dude
Posts: 29047
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:15 am

Re: Champions League 2020-2021

Post by mister d »

Those Chelsea kits wouldn't not suck, but they would suck a lot less if the shorts were blue.
Johnnie wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 8:13 pmOh shit, you just reminded me about toilet paper.
User avatar
mister d
The Dude
Posts: 29047
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:15 am

Re: Champions League 2020-2021

Post by mister d »

In case anyone is wondering, betting odds hit the scoreboards before goals do. Draw at +4,500 looked really great until I realized Chilwell had just made it 2-0.
Johnnie wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 8:13 pmOh shit, you just reminded me about toilet paper.
User avatar
Shirley
The Dude
Posts: 7516
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:32 pm

Re: Champions League 2020-2021

Post by Shirley »

mister d wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:09 pm Those Chelsea kits wouldn't not suck, but they would suck a lot less if the shorts were blue.
Yeah, I'm not a fan of their alternates this year. (I liked the 2-0 scoreline though)
Totally Kafkaesque
P.D.X.
The Dude
Posts: 5280
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:31 pm

Re: Champions League 2020-2021

Post by P.D.X. »

Don't sleep on the last 25 of this Bayern:PSG match
User avatar
govmentchedda
The Dude
Posts: 12672
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:36 pm

Re: Champions League 2020-2021

Post by govmentchedda »

P.D.X. wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:26 pm Don't sleep on the last 25 of this Bayern:PSG match
Definitely. PSG have been very unlucky.
Until everything is less insane, I'm mixing weed with wine.
User avatar
mister d
The Dude
Posts: 29047
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:15 am

Re: Champions League 2020-2021

Post by mister d »

So five midfielders and then Zinchenko at LB. If Dortmund gets one early, its going to be throw-up all over the place time in this house.
Johnnie wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 8:13 pmOh shit, you just reminded me about toilet paper.
Post Reply