NCAA meltdown thread

HaulCitgo · Post by **HaulCitgo** » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:18 pm

Youth coach used to throw balls at our head if we didn't watch the ball and the man on D. Ran our asses off too. We still sucked. And we were scared. I don't see anything that is that bad there but is he a good coach? That's the main problem. Does the asshole tough guy routine make the players play better? Everyone is fine with this if his team is in Atlanta.

howard · Post by **howard** » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:32 pm

HaulCitgo wrote:Everyone is fine with this if his team is in Atlanta.

Unless he's coaching dogs

rass · Post by **rass** » Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:09 am

I've never heard so much Rutgers talk on sports radio. They've hit the B1G time!

testuser2 · Post by **testuser2** » Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:04 am

Rex wrote:Back to the meltdown:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nc ... u/2047607/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Emmert really isn't doing the NCAA any favors. He has some big skeletons in his closet in terms of activities that he know condemns(LSU and it's culture). I think he's hastening the demise of the NCAA and I wouldn't be surprised to see him kicked to the curb.

Former PSU president Graham Spanier was once chair of the NCAA division I board of directors. He was also considered for the presidency after Myles Brand along with Emmert(http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/c ... obit_N.htm). The NCAA has no standing as the arbiter of what it good in college sports.

edit: include link to article

cerrano · Post by **cerrano** » Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:10 pm

HaulCitgo wrote:Youth coach used to throw balls at our head if we didn't watch the ball and the man on D. Ran our asses off too. We still sucked. And we were scared. I don't see anything that is that bad there but is he a good coach? That's the main problem. Does the asshole tough guy routine make the players play better? Everyone is fine with this if his team is in Atlanta.

the dude is completely unhinged in that tape! that kind of instability can't lead to success.

i have to believe that when knight hit a kid, it was entirely premeditated, and that's what made him a good coach.

Johnny Carwash · Post by **Johnny Carwash** » Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:45 pm

I barely pay attention to college football anymore, but...is it a big surprise that Auburn football is getting slapped with allegations of impropriety?

Report: Auburn paid players, altered grades under Gene Chizik

Post by **brian** » Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:22 pm

Johnny Carwash wrote:I barely pay attention to college football anymore, but...is it a big surprise that [INSERT RANDOM SEC TEAM OTHER THAN VANDERBILT] is getting slapped with allegations of impropriety?

cerrano · Post by **cerrano** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:09 am

rutgers ad tim pernetti out according to the star ledger.

this comes after the resignations of an assistant coach and the r.u. general counsel. it's a scarlet bloodbath!!!

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:32 am

The assistant is the son of hateable St. Joseph's of PA head coach Phil Martelli. I know a decent portion of their fanbase realizes the Nelson/West run was almost a decade ago and is over Martelli; trying to give his son a soft landing might push the majority over.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:59 am

mister d wrote:The assistant is the son of hateable St. Joseph's of PA head coach Phil Martelli. I know a decent portion of their fanbase realizes the Nelson/West run was almost a decade ago and is over Martelli; trying to give his son a soft landing might push the majority over.

Wow, he looks like Starter Kit Lawrence Frank. Like, a weasel. Literally.

devilfluff · Post by **devilfluff** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:01 am

cerrano wrote:rutgers ad tim pernetti out according to the star ledger.

this comes after the resignations of an assistant coach and the r.u. general counsel. it's a scarlet bloodbath!!!

I think this might be taking it a bit far. Rice is not Sandusky...

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:13 am

Flipside argument: This proves the AD has awful judgment and you may as well fire him now before his next screwup. Kicking players, throwing balls at their heads and screaming that they're "fucking faggots" (while not winning!!!) isn't a gray area.

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:14 am

devilfluff wrote:
cerrano wrote:rutgers ad tim pernetti out according to the star ledger.

this comes after the resignations of an assistant coach and the r.u. general counsel. it's a scarlet bloodbath!!!
I think this might be taking it a bit far. Rice is not Sandusky...

I know, right?

Post by **brian** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:29 am

mister d wrote:Flipside argument: This proves the AD has awful judgment and you may as well fire him now before his next screwup. Kicking players, throwing balls at their heads and screaming that they're "fucking faggots" (while not winning!!!) isn't a gray area.

Right. I would give the AD somewhat of a pass on not knowing about the behavior before the report because it's not like he can attend the practice of every single team under his watch and know every single thing going on, but once the report came out if his first instinct isn't "this asshole needs to be fired" then that's the wrong answer.

testuser2 · Post by **testuser2** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:48 am

I missed Emmert's press conference yesterday. Apparently it was pretty rough.

From http://www.sbnation.com/college-footbal ... final-four

And it was one long, sonorous fart noise, the frustrated display of a man growing aware he's on his way off of the highest perch he'll ever reach.

devilfluff · Post by **devilfluff** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:50 am

mister d wrote:Flipside argument: This proves the AD has awful judgment and you may as well fire him now before his next screwup. Kicking players, throwing balls at their heads and screaming that they're "fucking faggots" (while not winning!!!) isn't a gray area.

So you never played organized sports then? Every coach at that level acts similarly. Rice just got caught...

The AD fined, suspended, & ordered anger management for him in December. Then after realizing the public would require blood, apologized that his decision wasn't harsh enough, & fired him.

Pernetti has done a lot of good for the school. It seems a shame that a guy tries to go the path of rehabilitating an employee and gets burned for it.

Post by **brian** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:56 am

devilfluff wrote: So you never played organized sports then? Every coach at that level acts similarly. Rice just got caught...

I understand your argument about the AD wanting to maybe rehabilitate Rice and I won't quibble with it, but if you really think that his behavior is within some kind of a norm for college coaches, then you're crazy. I've been around college athletic programs and I've never seen anything close to what Rice was doing. Yeah, coaches yell at kids and can be demeaning at times, but certainly not physically abusive.

devilfluff · Post by **devilfluff** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:01 am

brian wrote:
devilfluff wrote: So you never played organized sports then? Every coach at that level acts similarly. Rice just got caught...
I understand your argument about the AD wanting to maybe rehabilitate Rice and I won't quibble with it, but if you really think that his behavior is within some kind of a norm for college coaches, then you're crazy. I've been around college athletic programs and I've never seen anything close to what Rice was doing. Yeah, coaches yell at kids and can be demeaning at times, but certainly not physically abusive.

Your milage may vary...

I don't have an issue w/ firing the coach. I think the AD got the short end of the stick. Both got the axe because of public backlash.

I do find it ironic(?) that a place that is so anti-corporal punishment in a legal/criminal sense is so pro- in a sport/professional sense.(meant NJ, but debate can be extended to swamp if you like...)

HaulCitgo · Post by **HaulCitgo** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:17 am

See but youre calling it abuse. That's not abuse. Maybe abuse in a first world problems kind of way. There were probably thousands of hours of video. If the worst is pushing some kids, calling them faggot and throwing balls then everyone is off their rocker. Don't mean to say this is the best way to coach kids. Its not, and he was rightfully fired because his team sucks. But all this shock and faux outrage is silly. Especially coming from coaches, many of whom probably did the same thing until they started showing video of practice on the news after bobby knight got canned.

Its just not that bad. Most of the pushing was immediately followed by the coach trying to instruct the player. Saw numerous clips where he pushed the kid then took a stance or showed the kid what to do. That tells me that it was a misguided attempt to coach.

Post by **brian** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:21 am

HaulCitgo wrote:See but youre calling it abuse. That's not abuse. Maybe abuse in a first world problems kind of way. There were probably thousands of hours of video. If the worst is pushing some kids, calling them faggot and throwing balls then everyone is off their rocker. Don't mean to say this is the best way to coach kids. Its not, and he was rightfully fired because his team sucks. But all this shock and faux outrage is silly. Especially coming from coaches, many of whom probably did the same thing until they started showing video of practice on the news after bobby knight got canned.

Its just not that bad. Most of the pushing was immediately followed by the coach trying to instruct the player. Saw numerous clips where he pushed the kid then took a stance or showed the kid what to do. That tells me that it was a misguided attempt to coach.

You're kind of saying two different things there. You're saying "no big deal" and "he should have been fired". If he was more successful, then you're saying he shouldn't have been fired? And if you're saying that, you're tacitly admitting that his methods are OK. Which they're just not. It's possible to coach kids without pushing them around and calling them "faggot". I can't believe we're actually debating this.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:53 am

I really hope one of their bosses comes in, whips a laptop at their head, calls them a "fucking faggot" and they shrug it off or just go get another job because maybe they aren't cut out for the current one.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:55 am

mister d wrote:I really hope one of their bosses comes in, whips a laptop at their head, calls them a "fucking faggot" and they shrug it off or just go get another job because maybe they aren't cut out for the current one.

It'll take a few weeks for their new "Coach" business cards to ship

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:56 am

(And because I know where this is headed, calling them a "pussy" is very much not the same. None of the players were or could potentially be women with vaginas. So you can tastelessly imply they're soft in a variety of off-color ways without that slur.)

Rex · Post by **Rex** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:05 pm

I'm not going there with the office stuff again. Not after I shoved my boss just like Mike Montgomery did. That was a bad idea.

devilfluff · Post by **devilfluff** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:12 pm

mister d wrote:(And because I know where this is headed, calling them a "pussy" is very much not the same. None of the players were or could potentially be women with vaginas. So you can tastelessly imply they're soft in a variety of off-color ways without that slur.)

So your issue is verbage? It would have been ok if they were called "fucking douches(or pansies or wimps or whatever)"?

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:16 pm

devilfluff wrote:
mister d wrote:(And because I know where this is headed, calling them a "pussy" is very much not the same. None of the players were or could potentially be women with vaginas. So you can tastelessly imply they're soft in a variety of off-color ways without that slur.)
So your issue is verbage? It would have been ok if they were called "fucking douches(or pansies or wimps or whatever)"?

I think so, yeah. Those aren't derisive towards a partuclar group of people based on their sexual preferences, but just because some people are douches. Calling someone who is (presumably) not a faggot a faggot is the definition of a slur. Some gays are douches. Not all of them are.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:28 pm

Calling them "fucking douches", or "douches" really since I don't have any issue with the word "fuck", would be on the other side of the line. Its probably makes the coach himself a douche for not having a better way to communicate, but its not nearly as offensive as "faggot".

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:29 pm

And its the timing too. If a coach called a player a "fucking douche" because he posted on twitter that he nailed a girl and didn't call her or something legitimately douchey like that, I have no issue. If he called a player a "fucking douche" because he was standing in the wrong place on a set play, I do.

Gunpowder · Post by **Gunpowder** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:22 pm

Just call them all stupid niggers if the word choice doesn't matter. Quick and to the point.

Uhhh, also...somebody above thinks all coaches do this? Are you out of your damn mind?

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:39 pm

Here's one thing I've never understood in these debates: The people taking the coaches' sides almost universally have an air of "if you can't take it, you're soft" to their argument, but is there anything more soft or subserviant than letting a person beat you because you made a mistake?

HaulCitgo · Post by **HaulCitgo** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:41 pm

So it all boils down to word choice? Gee, I wonder how often the word nigger is used on a basketball court. Rarely, im sure. Sports and locker rooms have always had an exception to general rules of political correctness. It is somewhat different when used by a coach but still, somewhat different. I don't think those guys were offended by his word choice. Its the general public that is offended by the word choice.

And when you show me video of someone being beat, I will agree with you.

Post by **brian** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:47 pm

Central Michigan's head coach was fired in the early 90s for using the word "nigger" when addressing his team. No suspension, no rehabilitation....fired.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:47 pm

HaulCitgo wrote:And when you show me video of someone being beat, I will agree with you.

Watch the current one on fast forward

Post by **Shirley** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:53 pm

I've been on countless teams as a player or coach since I was a kid. More times on than off in my life, I'd guess. Like the rest of you, I've also watched a hell of a lot of sports of different kinds and at different levels. I haven't seen too many cases where a coach was that abusive. Usually, it's a one off time where a coach lost his shit.

Now, that video is obviously distilled from a lot of practices, but Rice went over the line A LOT OF TIMES. Yes, word choice absolutely does matter. It also matters how and when you put your hands on a player. Every coach moves players into different positions, and every coach yells. That's part of coaching. When a coach is pissed or really wants to make a point, they'll often move a player forcefully. That's not unusual. That's also not what I saw in that video.

That dude was unhinged. He's a bully and he has a severe temper problem. He also pretty clearly has a shitty time communicating what he wants them to to. It's certainly possible he could be taught better skills and anger managment, but I wouldn't want him learning at MY school.

howard · Post by **howard** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:08 pm

Brian above, and Eric Murdoch in this story, highlight that this guy is a bully. This seems to me the key element.

The screamers I played for and witnessed coaching did not bully us/their players. They screamed, cussed, kicked (inanimate objects) and punished with running laps. But never bullied.

My other thought is I bet if you viewed 1000 hours of Mike Montgomery coaching up his players, you would rarely if never see him shove a player the way he did during that game. I bet Rice regularly utilized these motivational methods. Just my guess, not my judgment. I place more stock in repeated patterns of behavior than in isolated incidents. I cite Montgomery and Rice as examples based on my limited information--their examples may not be apt. Bobby Knight didn't act like a stupid bully just once or twice.

ETA: And I wondered about the assistant coach; there can't be but so many Martelli's in college hoops in this region. FWIW, Phil was charming and gentlemanly the one time I met him (maybe the company, Wayne Embry and Pete Newell had a civilizing effect on him. That was a fun impromptu lunch, that year the West regional final was in San Jose.)

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:11 pm

HaulCitgo wrote:So it all boils down to word choice? Gee, I wonder how often the word nigger is used on a basketball court. Rarely, im sure. Sports and locker rooms have always had an exception to general rules of political correctness. It is somewhat different when used by a coach but still, somewhat different. I don't think those guys were offended by his word choice. Its the general public that is offended by the word choice.

And its the "general public" of New Jersey that funds Rutgers, so I guess his firing makes sense, huh?

HaulCitgo · Post by **HaulCitgo** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:54 pm

Maybe so, but don't act outraged about what he did to the kids. The problem is that he is offensive to your sensibilities, not that the actions were so detrimental to the players.

I don't suggest that his actions are prudent. Its not an effective way to coach. But I didn't see anything there that was truly outrageous. Is it outrageous to push a kid? I didn't see anything more than a push and at that it was in the context of instruction. So id say no. Is it outrageous to say faggot on a hoops court? Id dare say it gets said on a daily basis on most courts. So again, id say no. Is it outrageous to throw a ball at a player? No. He generally threw it at their legs, presumably in an effort not to inflict harm.

When I consider that these video clips are cherry picked as worst of the worst from lots of practices, I put it in a broader context and say that hes probably a bully that takes out his personal issues on his team because he can. Not a guy I want coaching me. But these schools have shown that they will gladly trade their morality for wins and dollars, so id say a large percentage of schools would accept this treatment of players in exchange for a final four. In truth, many players would too if he could get them exposure to be drafted or a ring and a trophy to graduate with. I mean, didn't the guy at Texas Tech get rehired? Locking someone in a closet is far worse than what this guy did.

So my point is hes an asshole. But why act outraged when its clear that but for the public airing of his treatment of players, many, many schools would accept his behavior. Its just not that far over the line.

Gunpowder · Post by **Gunpowder** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:59 pm

It's who's saying it that matters. If I throw a bad pass in a pick up game and someone is like "nice pass, faggot", that's much different than my D-1 basketball coach doing it. It's like apples to grape fanta.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:12 pm

HaulCitgo wrote:He generally threw it at their legs, presumably in an effort not to inflict harm.

I don't know which is more ridiculous, the fact that you basically credit the coach with not trying to inflict harm when he was throwing balls at players or the fact that you flippantly use the word "generally" to shrug off those times he threw balls at their heads rather than their legs.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:16 pm

But the overall point is great. I remember playing one on one against my brother in grade school and he would get mad at me and call me a faggot and throw balls at me (both my head and my legs). Why should the 44 year old head coach of a high major division 1 school be held to a higher standard than that? Consider my initial judgment reversed.