Conservative or Otherwise Puritanical Hot Takes

[Nonlinear FC]

it feels common sense that all national team members of a specific country should make the same per-sport wage from the country they're representing. I don't understand how that's controversial at all.

Even in the rest of the world where the Men's teams sell out huge stadiums and sell tons of merch and the Women's teams get 500 fans to show up if they are lucky? Outside of the US and in very recent years a handful of European countries, there was zero interest in Women's international soccer. To some extent, there should be a correlation to revenue generation. And I hope you wouldn't argue that FIFA should pay the winning teams the same amount for the Women's WC winner as the Men's.

the easiest answer to all of this is to tie competition revenue into bonus structures while keeping the base pay -- the wage -- the same. seems pretty straightforward. there's no justifiable reason to tell a woman (or man) that their work to make an international team is worth less at a base rate than it is for the other gender.

Just to be clear, if that is how this was structured, I'd be fine with it. It's not. The bonuses for advancing are now being placed in a pool and then being doled out to all players who have played a certain amount of minutes for either team. And, again, the payout from FIFA is ENORMOUSLY more for the men than the women. I won't go over stuff Syb and I have already stated about why this is the case.

[The Sybian]

it feels common sense that all national team members of a specific country should make the same per-sport wage from the country they're representing. I don't understand how that's controversial at all.

Even in the rest of the world where the Men's teams sell out huge stadiums and sell tons of merch and the Women's teams get 500 fans to show up if they are lucky? Outside of the US and in very recent years a handful of European countries, there was zero interest in Women's international soccer. To some extent, there should be a correlation to revenue generation. And I hope you wouldn't argue that FIFA should pay the winning teams the same amount for the Women's WC winner as the Men's.

the easiest answer to all of this is to tie competition revenue into bonus structures while keeping the base pay -- the wage -- the same. seems pretty straightforward. there's no justifiable reason to tell a woman (or man) that their work to make an international team is worth less at a base rate than it is for the other gender.

It's kind of like telling an NFL player they should get paid the same as an XFL player. They are both going on a field and playing the same sport. Why should one get paid more than the other? It's not just paying one gender more than the other. Men's soccer generates 100s of Billions of dollars worldwide while Women's soccer generates 10s of millions.

[Brontoburglar]

it feels common sense that all national team members of a specific country should make the same per-sport wage from the country they're representing. I don't understand how that's controversial at all.

Even in the rest of the world where the Men's teams sell out huge stadiums and sell tons of merch and the Women's teams get 500 fans to show up if they are lucky? Outside of the US and in very recent years a handful of European countries, there was zero interest in Women's international soccer. To some extent, there should be a correlation to revenue generation. And I hope you wouldn't argue that FIFA should pay the winning teams the same amount for the Women's WC winner as the Men's.

the easiest answer to all of this is to tie competition revenue into bonus structures while keeping the base pay -- the wage -- the same. seems pretty straightforward. there's no justifiable reason to tell a woman (or man) that their work to make an international team is worth less at a base rate than it is for the other gender.

It's kind of like telling an NFL player they should get paid the same as an XFL player. They are both going on a field and playing the same sport. Why should one get paid more than the other? It's not just paying one gender more than the other. Men's soccer generates 100s of Billions of dollars worldwide while Women's soccer generates 10s of millions.

huh?

[Brontoburglar]

Just to be clear, if that is how this was structured, I'd be fine with it. It's not. The bonuses for advancing are now being placed in a pool and then being doled out to all players who have played a certain amount of minutes for either team. And, again, the payout from FIFA is ENORMOUSLY more for the men than the women. I won't go over stuff Syb and I have already stated about why this is the case.

I think this is getting too in the weeds vs. a broad sense of the equal pay theme. And I think we all can agree that the US is a unique example because of the success of the women relative to the men and of the way the NWSL has been set up and structured with direct USWNT involvement along with the recognizability and marketability of the players.

[The Sybian]

it feels common sense that all national team members of a specific country should make the same per-sport wage from the country they're representing. I don't understand how that's controversial at all.

Even in the rest of the world where the Men's teams sell out huge stadiums and sell tons of merch and the Women's teams get 500 fans to show up if they are lucky? Outside of the US and in very recent years a handful of European countries, there was zero interest in Women's international soccer. To some extent, there should be a correlation to revenue generation. And I hope you wouldn't argue that FIFA should pay the winning teams the same amount for the Women's WC winner as the Men's.

the easiest answer to all of this is to tie competition revenue into bonus structures while keeping the base pay -- the wage -- the same. seems pretty straightforward. there's no justifiable reason to tell a woman (or man) that their work to make an international team is worth less at a base rate than it is for the other gender.

It's kind of like telling an NFL player they should get paid the same as an XFL player. They are both going on a field and playing the same sport. Why should one get paid more than the other? It's not just paying one gender more than the other. Men's soccer generates 100s of Billions of dollars worldwide while Women's soccer generates 10s of millions.

huh?

NFL compared to XFL and Men's soccer compared to Women's are both the same sport played at vastly different levels and generating vastly different amount of revenues. It's a business, employees get paid more when they generate more revenue. It's not complicated. If you think the Women's WC and the Men's WC are equivalent, you are delusional.

[Brontoburglar]

NFL compared to XFL and Men's soccer compared to Women's are both the same sport played at vastly different levels and generating vastly different amount of revenues. It's a business, employees get paid more when they generate more revenue. It's not complicated. If you think the Women's WC and the Men's WC are equivalent, you are delusional.

I'm extremely confused. why would it be unfair to have all national team members make the same base pay and have a formula for bonuses based on the competition revenues of that sport like mentioned above?

ETA: I also feel it needs to be clearer that I'm speaking about the general principle way more broadly than simply about more than soccer in the United States

[The Sybian]

NFL compared to XFL and Men's soccer compared to Women's are both the same sport played at vastly different levels and generating vastly different amount of revenues. It's a business, employees get paid more when they generate more revenue. It's not complicated. If you think the Women's WC and the Men's WC are equivalent, you are delusional.

I'm extremely confused. why would it be unfair to have all national team members make the same base pay and have a formula for bonuses based on the competition revenues of that sport like mentioned above?

ETA: I also feel it needs to be clearer that I'm speaking about the general principle way more broadly than simply about more than soccer in the United States

If the base pay was a small compared to the bonus for WCs, sure. As it is, they don't get paid shit for friendlies and in US only calculations, the gap in revenue is much smaller, so sure, pay them the same for friendlies. I was just talking WC revenue sharing.

[mister d]

XFL players are explicitly not at the top of their sport. That’s like the exact opposite of this discussion.

[The Sybian]

XFL players are explicitly not at the top of their sport. That’s like the exact opposite of this discussion.

Alright, pro pickleball league?

[mister d]

If the USPPA paid men more than women, that would be analogous?

[The Sybian]

If the USPPA paid men more than women, that would be analogous?

Maybe the issue is that I view Women's and Men's soccer as analogous to separate leagues or sports, not like identically skilled players in the same league generating the same revenues paid differently due to a protected class. This is very different than if the NFL had different league minimums based on a player's race. How much do the U-20s get paid for international matches? I'm assuming it's lower than the full nationals. Is that age discrimination?

[mister d]

A U-20 can play for the national team if they're good enough, right?

[A_B]

A U-20 can play for the national team if they're good enough, right?

Depends on how big of an asshole his parents are.

[The Sybian]

A U-20 can play for the national team if they're good enough, right?

Serious question, is there any rule preventing a woman from playing on a men's national team?

[Nonlinear FC]

Just to be clear, if that is how this was structured, I'd be fine with it. It's not. The bonuses for advancing are now being placed in a pool and then being doled out to all players who have played a certain amount of minutes for either team. And, again, the payout from FIFA is ENORMOUSLY more for the men than the women. I won't go over stuff Syb and I have already stated about why this is the case.

I think this is getting too in the weeds vs. a broad sense of the equal pay theme. And I think we all can agree that the US is a unique example because of the success of the women relative to the men and of the way the NWSL has been set up and structured with direct USWNT involvement along with the recognizability and marketability of the players.

Well, it's not getting in the weeds in terms of where the discussion took us. Soccer is really the only sport where the players and a significant amount of the fans of (very specifically) USWNT have repeatedly made apples to apples comparisons (their success at WWC as well as their ability to draw crowds for friendlies) about compensation. My point is that it's not apples to apples. That's it.

[mister d]

I'd argue college sports made and succeeded with that argument in terms of the NCAA and member programs?

[Brontoburglar]

Just to be clear, if that is how this was structured, I'd be fine with it. It's not. The bonuses for advancing are now being placed in a pool and then being doled out to all players who have played a certain amount of minutes for either team. And, again, the payout from FIFA is ENORMOUSLY more for the men than the women. I won't go over stuff Syb and I have already stated about why this is the case.

I think this is getting too in the weeds vs. a broad sense of the equal pay theme. And I think we all can agree that the US is a unique example because of the success of the women relative to the men and of the way the NWSL has been set up and structured with direct USWNT involvement along with the recognizability and marketability of the players.

Well, it's not getting in the weeds in terms of where the discussion took us. Soccer is really the only sport where the players and a significant amount of the fans of (very specifically) USWNT have repeatedly made apples to apples comparisons (their success at WWC as well as their ability to draw crowds for friendlies) about compensation. My point is that it's not apples to apples. That's it.

it's a lot closer to apples to apples domestically. and that's a key point in the circumstance of the US. two things can be true here: the men's world cup is a much bigger event internationally than the women's world cup and that chasm is not nearly the same domestically when it comes to the USWNT and the USMNT

[Brontoburglar]

I understand how and why this conversation has veered so much towards the USMNT/USWNT, but unless I'm mistaken, this discussion started with men's and women's "sports" and not soccer specifically (and multiple sports have been referenced), and that's why I asked about the universal argument for equal pay for all sports in the first place

[The Sybian]

I do want to point out that I support women's soccer and hope the sport grows internationally. It's made huge strides in Europe and it's starting to in South America and I am thrilled to see it. I've actually gone to more USWNT games (3) than USMNT games (1) and I've gone to several NWSL games. The salaries for NWSL players is depressing, but attendance at the games I've gone to is around 3,000 fans. First couple of games was at Rutgers, where it's an open field with stands on one side of the field. Depressing that a pro team was playing there. Now Gotham FC plays at the Red Bull Arena, which is a beautiful stadium specifically built for soccer. 25,000 seat capacity, but it's sad watching a game with less than 3,000 fans in a stadium with 22,000 empty seats. I blame the club for failing to build a fan base. With such a large population within easy commute to the stadium and it's a huge soccer region, it's stupidity on their part. Not to mention the ownership treats the players so horribly, both of their first round picks a few years ago refused to sign and decided to play in Europe until they were eligible to play for a different NWSL team.

[Nonlinear FC]

I understand how and why this conversation has veered so much towards the USMNT/USWNT, but unless I'm mistaken, this discussion started with men's and women's "sports" and not soccer specifically (and multiple sports have been referenced), and that's why I asked about the universal argument for equal pay for all sports in the first place

It immediately went there because, like me, Sybian has been battered around the head and shoulders over the years on the USSF issues. And sometimes you hear the specific arguments being made and it can make someone that actually knows the apples to oranges nature of the different universes the teams operate in... It can be crazy making.

So, when I said (paraphrasing) the women's version of the product isn't as good and they shouldn't be compensated on the same level, there's really only one sport where that argument being made. The LPGA and women's tennis aren't mired in controversy over compensation (unless I'm missing something.)

And so I'm clear, what are you advocating?

[Brontoburglar]

this:

the easiest answer to all of this is to tie competition revenue into bonus structures while keeping the base pay -- the wage -- the same. seems pretty straightforward. there's no justifiable reason to tell a woman (or man) that their work to make an international team is worth less at a base rate than it is for the other gender.

while also noting that the US soccer situation is a unique circumstance regarding the pooling and distribution of bonus money and the market for both teams domestically

my confusion stems from the continued references to men's and women's professional leagues as comparisons to national teams like in the most recent post. they're not comparable and only muddle the discussion if it's only about soccer

[Nonlinear FC]

And I already said a couple of times that if we're just talking about base pay I HAVE NO ISSUE. But pooling the bonuses is where I don't see it as being "fair" given the economics of the respective tournaments we're talking about. Again, no issue with base pay.

And, well, as you said, the discussion wasn't just around women's soccer to begin with and Mr. D asked what I thought was an interesting contextual question, which brought in the other sports.

I agree that it muddled the very specific path we're on wrt women's soccer, but I think we've landed at an understanding. We can agree to disagree on the bonus structure (or not, I don't know if you've really addressed it other than to say it was too in the weeds.)

[Brontoburglar]

And I already said a couple of times that if we're just talking about base pay I HAVE NO ISSUE. But pooling the bonuses is where I don't see it as being "fair" given the economics of the respective tournaments we're talking about. Again, no issue with base pay.

And, well, as you said, the discussion wasn't just around women's soccer to begin with and Mr. D asked what I thought was an interesting contextual question, which brought in the other sports.

I agree that it muddled the very specific path we're on wrt women's soccer, but I think we've landed at an understanding. We can agree to disagree on the bonus structure (or not, I don't know if you've really addressed it other than to say it was too in the weeds.)

respectfully, I think you're underselling the domestic gap between the two teams by focusing on the international one. the equal pay/bonus pooling argument worked because the market largely favored the USWNT and allowed the public pressure to spur action

it's a lot closer to apples to apples domestically. and that's a key point in the circumstance of the US. two things can be true here: the men's world cup is a much bigger event internationally than the women's world cup and that chasm is not nearly the same domestically when it comes to the USWNT and the USMNT

[Nonlinear FC]

Here's where I'll leave it, in an article from Time that actually gets at some of the underlying tension and frustration some feel over this.

Sure, the higher salaries that men can earn playing for their pro club teams help offset any World Cup losses—but they could have still held out on equality. “This advancement doesn’t happen without the men championing this,” says Cone. “I don’t want that to be understated. Because they were true champions of this, and worked through this because it’s not easy to give up the money that they’re giving up.”

We are the only Federation in the world that is doing this. And I'm truly happy those players put aside some valid concerns/issues with the new CBA to create this unified position. I really am. If they are OK with the arrangement, it's obviously not my place to have faux outrage and grievance about it. (but is that gonna stop me?)

With that said, it's not some crazy stance to say this CBA isn't completely rooted in the economics of the sport. It's very clearly not, as is evidenced in that quote.

But, it's absolutely why the only place on the planet I would really get into the issue is in this very specifically labeled "get off my lawn" thread.

[rass]

Hot Pants in Women’s Soccer?

Might try to bring back signing posts.

rass

[Shirley]

Hot Pants in Women’s Soccer?

Might try to bring back signing posts.

rass

That was quite a read. It's a wonder we never got more women posters...

[rass]

I met some of the NYC guys over the years and they were great and the site basically exists because of them but they were awfully bro-y back then.

[Nonlinear FC]

Yeah, it's pretty remarkable what was acceptable and really what was aspirational in terms of blogs and aggregators back then. Deadspin was king and Kissing Suzy Kolber seemed perfectly fine. The objectification of a high school pole vaulter seemed perfectly fine, right along with a countdown clock on when the Olsen twins were going to turn 18.

Pretty gross looking back. But certainly mainstream at the time.

[EdRomero]

Legalized gambling on apps is going to cause so many problems.

[Pruitt IV]

Legalized gambling on apps is going to cause so many problems.

Watching the Leafs game last night - must have been 6 different gambling sites advertising during the telecast and I'm not exaggerating when I say there was one ever single commercial break. PLUS advertising on the boards throughout the game. PLUS, live line updates during the intermissions from the network's studio.

It is unconscionable.

And I am amazed at how many props are on offer. There has to be a couple dozen unique ways to lose money every period.

[EdRomero]

It's good kids don't need to find some bookie who will break a finger if they don't pay; now we just have millions of kids getting bombarding with professional marketing campaigns and addictive apps..what could go wrong?

[Pruitt IV]

A lot of first credit cards are going to get maxxed out fast.

[rass]

NAM is a better abbreviation than VIE

[A_B]

NAM is a better abbreviation than VIE

Ehhhhhhhhhh

[TT2.0]

Hot Pants in Women’s Soccer?

Might try to bring back signing posts.

rass

That was quite a read. It's a wonder we never got more women posters...

Maybe if we posted scores on the front page?