2023 MLB Postseason - Rangers vs.. wait... the Diamondbacks? Really?

[cerranoredux]

Future sleep is something to look forward to, right?

[degenerasian]

Future sleep is something to look forward to, right?

Flyers just started!

[mister d]

I still can’t believe Harper missed that pitch. Not because it was unmissable, but because it was Harper.

[Ryan]

5-out-of-9-on-the-grid-ass World Series.

[brian]

Future sleep is something to look forward to, right?

Flyers just started!

Just not Philly’s night tonight.

[L-Jam3]

This Diamondbacks team reminds me a lot of the mid-teens Royals squads. Not a tremendous amount of power, but a lot of contact bats, team aggressiveness, an workable staff, and a lockdown bullpen. A team that plays baseball well. Interesting team.

But the fact that the World Series is going to be played entirely on artificial turf, in 2023. Man. Certainly not the most aesthetic of venues around.

[MaxWebster]

yeah i still can't wrap my head around it - it makes no sense that they won the pennant but here they are. wtf. i can't remember why i didn't like that Royals team and feels bad to admit that now, seems like punching down but maybe it was their rude dismissal of the Jays in that ALCS. Shit the more i think about it i like the comparison, LJ.

wrt the turf - I literally had forgotten it's artificial. Think about the 1987 WS ... or sticking w the Royals theme 1985. Bad visuals - they just looked gross - it's impressive what they can do with turf now.

This Diamondbacks team reminds me a lot of the mid-teens Royals squads. Not a tremendous amount of power, but a lot of contact bats, team aggressiveness, an workable staff, and a lockdown bullpen. A team that plays baseball well. Interesting team.

But the fact that the World Series is going to be played entirely on artificial turf, in 2023. Man. Certainly not the most aesthetic of venues around.

[MaxWebster]

OT: there's a predictable and very annoying vocal presence from Jays forums on how the trade was tHe wOrSt eVeR!?!?! but it's not like the Jays could capably have kept 3 catchers, and Moreno was probably the only marketable one at the time.

(Moreno and Gurriel Jr* for Varsho)

*my daughter's fave player; her reaction was fun when she saw he got traded last winter

Plus being objective it honestly wasn't a terrible trade (factoring in defence a lot of metrics have Kirk the equal of Moreno; plus Varsho's OF D is near top of the league. not nearly as sexy as a decent OPS+ tho I admit) that can't even be properly evaluated yet - the Jays were/are an incomplete team so it's easy to see 2 guys going to the Series and having some memorable postseason moments and being pissed.

Jays fans are also conveniently forgetting how frosted they were at Gurriel's lack of power last year

[degenerasian]

Aside: The Japanese baseball league is also in it's Japan series and it's so different than MLB. They do their best to ensure the top two teams make it where MLB has an anything can happen if you get in philosophy.

I've mentioned this before. There are 2 leagues and the top 3 teams from each league get in. Playoff round: 3rd placed team plays a best of 3 at the 2nd placed team's park (like in MLB). Championship Round: The playoff winner plays a best of 7 at the 1st placed team's park. The first placed team is given Game 1, therefore the series starts with Game 2. Japan Series: same as MLB, 2-3-2 format.

Both leagues this year were won in landslides, 10+ games. Hanshin clinched the Central League on Sept 14. Orix (defending champs) clinched in Sept 20. The season ended Oct 4 and then both teams made quick work of their Championship Series, Hanshin swept 3 games, Orix played 4.

The Japan Series starts on Saturday so from mid-September to October 28, they would have played 3 or 4 important games.

[degenerasian]

OT: there's a predictable and very annoying vocal presence from Jays forums on how the trade was tHe wOrSt eVeR!?!?! but it's not like the Jays could capably have kept 3 catchers, and Moreno was probably the only marketable one at the time.

(Moreno and Gurriel Jr* for Varsho)

*my daughter's fave player; her reaction was fun when she saw he got traded last winter

Plus being objective it honestly wasn't a terrible trade (factoring in defence a lot of metrics have Kirk the equal of Moreno; plus Varsho's OF D is near top of the league. not nearly as sexy as a decent OPS+ tho I admit) that can't even be properly evaluated yet - the Jays were/are an incomplete team so it's easy to see 2 guys going to the Series and having some memorable postseason moments and being pissed.

Jays fans are also conveniently forgetting how frosted they were at Gurriel's lack of power last year

I think most fans wanted to trade Kirk or Jansen and keep Moreno. Kirk had value, he started the all-star game last year! But you are probably right that I think most GMs could see through that. It's the old argument of 'form' and 'class'. Do you keep the guy who's producing now or the guy who has pedigree?

The Jays defense was bad in 2022 but I think that has to do more with discipline and coaching than actual skill. Some players like Varsho and Kiermeier are naturally good defensively no matter what. But Teoscar and Gurriel can be good defensively too if coached properly and gave a shit, it just take more work to train them. So the Jays gave up bats for defense but those bats could have been good on defense too. Teoscar and Gurriel are fast guys and have played good defense in their new surroundings.

[mister d]

I remain absolute that you don't trade a position prospect who you think can be a star, even if the guy you're getting fills a need and the other team won't trade him otherwise. Also, Varsho takes some very upsetting pictures.

[Steve of phpBB]

I remain absolute that you don't trade a position prospect who you think can be a star, even if the guy you're getting fills a need and the other team won't trade him otherwise. Also, Varsho takes some very upsetting pictures.

Like Gleyber Torres for instance. Argh.

[degenerasian]

I believe that's where the mistake was and will continually made. The problem isn't the personnel that you have, the problem is coaching. you're trading a bat for defense when you could have turned that bat into a better fielder.


Raw talent takes coaching to mould into a winner. The Jays don't teach fundamentals, running, or defense. You can clearly see this when you watch them 162. This is why Vladdy is getting picked off of 2nd base with a guy on 3rd.

[MaxWebster]

LOL he's like a big cuddly teddy bear.

i assume you're referring to Moreno (wrt "think can be a star")? yeah that was a tough one i admit - and i was definitely clamouring even last summer when it was obvious there would be a catcher logjam to trade Kirk at his clear high hitting point. Obviously what we don't nor will ever know is what the offers were; other GMs aren't stupid and knew the bind the Jays had. Good on AZ for holding out for Moreno.

And degen i loved Gurriel too but holyshit his routes in the OF were like those old (terrible) Family Circus cartoons - complete white-knuckle adventure. I guess you can coach that but why bother when you can get better and (the theory was) get better hitting w/ Varsho.

anyways it's objectively a fascinating trade bc it's playing out heavily/visually in Arizona's favour right now but give it time.

(local flavour: reminds me a little of when the Sabres made the Ryan O'Reilly deal ~4? years ago and then he wins the damn Cup/Conn Smythe and all the Sabres got back were some useless 3rd liners and an 8' dork who couldn't skate and had no hockey sense it was the worst trade anyone had ever seen. Just took the 8' dork a few years and getting out from a hideous coach to actually make that deal very worth it)

I remain absolute that you don't trade a position prospect who you think can be a star, even if the guy you're getting fills a need and the other team won't trade him otherwise. Also, Varsho takes some very upsetting pictures.

[sancarlos]

Those look like mug shots. Or, he’s just really wired on something.

[MaxWebster]

i can't pretend to know one way or the other but something definitely happened team-wide this year for them to be such a non-dangerous offensive club power-wise. It's not like everyone turned 37 overnight so I have to believe it can be corrected, which probably aligns with what you're saying. i.e. bad coaching.

i'd like to blame their MAGAsshole hitting coach.

Raw talent takes coaching to mould into a winner. The Jays don't teach fundamentals, running, or defense. You can clearly see this when you watch them 162. This is why Vladdy is getting picked off of 2nd base with a guy on 3rd.

[MaxWebster]

ya he poses for a weird pic
honestly i think he's just a sincerely shy nice guy - apparently when the DBacks traded him they had to sit the team down to tell them as he was widely beloved and also everyone had nothing but great things to say about him in TO. he's awkward - which I personally enjoy

Those look like mug shots. Or, he’s just really wired on something.

[sancarlos]

[brian]

Ugh, Nate Silver needs to fuck all the way off.

[GoodKarma]

Instead of contraction I would prefer the better teams actually show up when it counts.

[brian]

Let’s just do away with the playoffs altogether. Each team plays 174 games, 3 home and away against all 29 other teams. Best record wins the title.

I mean that’s Silver’s idiot extreme.

[govmentchedda]

While I don't agree with contracting the playoffs, I would love to see more acclaim for best record in a season, i.e. President's Trophy in NHL, or you know, the Premier League title.

[L-Jam3]

Instead of contraction I would prefer the better teams actually show up when it counts.

This is where I am. And if you didn't play in round one, had the opportunity to stack your rotation, had home field, and still lost, that's on you.

The only change I might make is do like the NBA does and seed according to total wins, something like the AL being seeded this year as Baltimore at 1 and Tampa at 2, but I don't see any issue in the layout. Some teams just get hot for three weeks.

[tennbengal]

I hate that Silver said that but...

I feel where he is coming from. This version of the playoffs etc just leaves me feeling cold as a fan. Former fan. Kinda fan.

[mister d]

But isn't it a stupid complaint? Like would the playoffs in any sport be better if the favored team always won? Then he and everyone else would complain its boring and predictable, right?

[tennbengal]

But isn't it a stupid complaint? Like would the playoffs in any sport be better if the favored team always won? Then he and everyone else would complain its boring and predictable, right?

I guess it's because I am old? Because the regular season used to mean a LOT more. Etc. Etc.

[A_B]

I hate that Silver said that but...

I feel where he is coming from. This version of the playoffs etc just leaves me feeling cold as a fan. Former fan. Kinda fan.

It probably helps having a team int he playoffs. But I've enjoyed this postseason as a mostly neutral. However, not super excited about the WS. Doubt I will be staying up to finish most of these games

[Ryan]

How much more compelling would it be if both of these teams won 100 games? What he really means is that it's not statistically fair and nobody cares about the markets, which is valid yet stupid.

[EnochRoot]

But isn't it a stupid complaint? Like would the playoffs in any sport be better if the favored team always won? Then he and everyone else would complain its boring and predictable, right?

This isn’t the proper argument. The better one is that Arizona should not have been in the postseason to begin with.

[Steve of phpBB]

But isn't it a stupid complaint? Like would the playoffs in any sport be better if the favored team always won? Then he and everyone else would complain its boring and predictable, right?

It feels to me like there's a middle ground somewhere. The Dodgers and D-Backs competed against each other for 162 games and the Dodgers finished a full 16 games ahead. Then they rolled the dice to see who would go on to the NLCS. The same with the Braves and Phillies. That just seems wrong to me.

(Though I had no problem with the 2015 Cubs finishing third and then knocking off the two teams above them. But at least in that situation, all three teams finished within a couple of games of each other.)

And no, the answer can't be "show up when it counts," because when any particular player or team "shows up" is almost completely random.

[degenerasian]

But isn't it a stupid complaint? Like would the playoffs in any sport be better if the favored team always won? Then he and everyone else would complain its boring and predictable, right?

It feels to me like there's a middle ground somewhere. The Dodgers and D-Backs competed against each other for 162 games and the Dodgers finished a full 16 games ahead. Then they rolled the dice to see who would go on to the NLCS. The same with the Braves and Phillies. That just seems wrong to me.

(Though I had no problem with the 2015 Cubs finishing third and then knocking off the two teams above them. But at least in that situation, all three teams finished within a couple of games of each other.)

And no, the answer can't be "show up when it counts," because when any particular player or team "shows up" is almost completely random.

Playoffs are a roll of the dice. I mean there is regular Kershaw and playoff Kershaw. I don't know how to resolve that.

And is the solution giving more home games to Houston? That would be worse!

Aside: The 2019 NHL playoffs. The Lightning and Flames finished first in the respective conferences and won a combined 1 game in the playoffs.

[sancarlos]

But isn't it a stupid complaint? Like would the playoffs in any sport be better if the favored team always won? Then he and everyone else would complain its boring and predictable, right?

I guess it's because I am old? Because the regular season used to mean a LOT more. Etc. Etc.

Harrumph harrumph

[tennbengal]

But isn't it a stupid complaint? Like would the playoffs in any sport be better if the favored team always won? Then he and everyone else would complain its boring and predictable, right?

It feels to me like there's a middle ground somewhere. The Dodgers and D-Backs competed against each other for 162 games and the Dodgers finished a full 16 games ahead. Then they rolled the dice to see who would go on to the NLCS. The same with the Braves and Phillies. That just seems wrong to me.

(Though I had no problem with the 2015 Cubs finishing third and then knocking off the two teams above them. But at least in that situation, all three teams finished within a couple of games of each other.)

And no, the answer can't be "show up when it counts," because when any particular player or team "shows up" is almost completely random.

Yeah, that's where I am, really.

[Steve of phpBB]

But isn't it a stupid complaint? Like would the playoffs in any sport be better if the favored team always won? Then he and everyone else would complain its boring and predictable, right?

It feels to me like there's a middle ground somewhere. The Dodgers and D-Backs competed against each other for 162 games and the Dodgers finished a full 16 games ahead. Then they rolled the dice to see who would go on to the NLCS. The same with the Braves and Phillies. That just seems wrong to me.

(Though I had no problem with the 2015 Cubs finishing third and then knocking off the two teams above them. But at least in that situation, all three teams finished within a couple of games of each other.)

And no, the answer can't be "show up when it counts," because when any particular player or team "shows up" is almost completely random.

Playoffs are a roll of the dice. I mean there is regular Kershaw and playoff Kershaw. I don't know how to resolve that.

And is the solution giving more home games to Houston? That would be worse!

Aside: The 2019 NHL playoffs. The Lightning and Flames finished first in the respective conferences and won a combined 1 game in the playoffs.

A solution probably would involve either contracting the playoffs or giving teams a one-game advantage in a series, or something like that. I don't think giving a team more home games would really change things.

(I'm well aware of the capriciousness of hockey too. The 1991 Blackhawks won the President's trophy with 106 points then lost in the first round to the 68-point North Stars.)

[MaxWebster]

sometimes it feels like it's too easy to complain about everything in sports, and I absolutely started down that road a week or 2 ago wrt the Diamondbacks when they blew away the Dodgers (me: "this team shouldn't have been in the playoffs" - but they are, Max...) but i think maybe I take / society takes it all a bit too seriously.

While I fully agree with "you're not getting the best teams" - that's exactly the point. exactly. if N American leagues only ever wanted the best teams, they'd have a Premier League system. play a schedule - the end. Top team wins, good night. You very logically and literally cannot have it both ways.

Also if you don't want poorly-attended or no-fans* teams in the WS, contract them or move them. Otherwise let's go - game on. I admit that I definitely wanted a rematch of last year, tons of big bats and big names but you never know and i'm here for the chaos. dammit we only get 4-7 baseball games left this year!

*Tampa...you're on the damn clock. love your team but i'm really glad you got eliminated - seeing that many empties is awful, i don't care if the stadium is in East St Louis. figure it out.

I'm sure media can spin a narrative about these 2 teams in a positive way - e.g. how is Adolis Garcia not a superstar? Corbin "Tyrion Lannister" Carroll (goddamn you misterd it's all over in my house now w him)?


(also what about in ~1973? when the Mets had something like 82 or 83 wins and almost won the WS - every generation hand-wrings and I get it to an extent)

[MaxWebster]

good example - IIRC the Stars rolled over 3 good teams to get to the finals where they almost pulled that off too

(I'm well aware of the capriciousness of hockey too. The 1991 Blackhawks won the President's trophy with 106 points then lost in the first round to the 68-point North Stars.)

[HaulCitgo]

Five game division series contributes

[mister d]

I haven't seen this anywhere, which means I'm the first person to ever think of it ... if you want it to be more like the regular season (which presumably favors the team with more wins), kill the off day on the first travel. Would force teams to go with their full rotation rather than having their 1 and 2 cover 4 games out of 6.

[degenerasian]

I haven't seen this anywhere, which means I'm the first person to ever think of it ... if you want it to be more like the regular season (which presumably favors the team with more wins), kill the off day on the first travel. Would force teams to go with their full rotation rather than having their 1 and 2 cover 4 games out of 6.

Maybe. It's just whoever is hot now. Diamondbacks won 4 out of 5 and lost the game Gallen started.

After the wildcard series, Kershaw should be beating Kelly, Strider should be beating Suarez plus 6 relievers. There's no explanation for it.

[mister d]

More that the structure would be the same as the regular season and depth would be rewarded. Phillies had Wheeler/Nola start 40% of regular season season games and then over 60% of their playoff games.