Roger Godell's Terrible No Good Bad (Infinity) - the whoopin

DC47 · Post by **DC47** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 5:05 pm

Domestic violence and child abuse are bad things. So is having an NFL commissioner lie to cover-up misdeeds and then lie about the cover-up.

But it seems to me that there is something important that's missing from the recent national dialogue. That's the notion that many people already knew about these things. I imagine that if we took a poll of football fans a month ago, a reasonably high percentage would say that a significant number of pro football players -- say 20 to 50 -- had committed domestic violence or child abuse. And an even higher percentage would say that the NFL commissioner would flagrantly lie about this -- or just about anything -- if he thought it was to his advantage. I would hope that an even higher percentage of sports media people who cover the NFL would be on the 'yes' side of this poll, as they are generally pretty smart and they spend time in that world.

To me, there's absolutely no shock or surprise in the Rice and Peterson cases. None at all. Nor in the way the NFL has responded. These things fit with my fundamental understanding of this industry. In like manner, I believe that the oil industry commits a substantial number of environmental crimes, many of which are not detected by outsiders and not reported even if they are. So, for example, the disaster at the BP rig, and the response to it, didn't reveal anything new to me.

I still use oil products. I still follow pro football. But the extent to which I do these things has always been diminished by the way they operate. I'm in favor of reform in both industries. So, yeah, I'd be glad to see Roger Goodell fired. Just as I was glad to see the head of BP fired. But not because they were uniquely evil people. Only because these punishments would, in a very small way, improve the behavior of their successors and team owners. But emphasis on "small way."

Joe K · Post by **Joe K** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 5:26 pm

I'm not sure if any of the other Swamp lawyers have already made this point, but all this talk from team and league officials about "due process" is total bullshit and is pissing me off. Due process is a limitation on what the government can do, and doesn't in any way limit the actions of a private employer. I'd like to think that I'm good at my job, but if I got arrested or indicted for domestic violence or child abuse, I'd be fired immediately. But then again, I never rushed for 2,000 yards in a season and no one would ever buy a shirt with my name on it.

(I'm also fairly certain that there's nothing in the CBA that's applicable to the Peterson or Rice situations either since, as Ben Roethlisberger found out, you don't even need to be charged with a crime to face discipline for personal conduct issues.)

Post by **brian** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 5:47 pm

Joe K wrote:I'd like to think that I'm good at my job, but if I got arrested or indicted for domestic violence or child abuse, I'd be fired immediately.

Yeah, this is a point that I wanted to make, but couldn't figure out a way to make it quite this well. Just about anyone, if their employer somehow found out about it, would be fired for similar crimes.

DC47 · Post by **DC47** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 6:01 pm

Joe K wrote:I'm not sure if any of the other Swamp lawyers have already made this point, but all this talk from team and league officials about "due process" is total bullshit and is pissing me off. Due process is a limitation on what the government can do, and doesn't in any way limit the actions of a private employer. I'd like to think that I'm good at my job, but if I got arrested or indicted for domestic violence or child abuse, I'd be fired immediately. But then again, I never rushed for 2,000 yards in a season and no one would ever buy a shirt with my name on it.

Is that true in most unionized settings?

Joe K · Post by **Joe K** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 6:07 pm

DC47 wrote:
Joe K wrote:I'm not sure if any of the other Swamp lawyers have already made this point, but all this talk from team and league officials about "due process" is total bullshit and is pissing me off. Due process is a limitation on what the government can do, and doesn't in any way limit the actions of a private employer. I'd like to think that I'm good at my job, but if I got arrested or indicted for domestic violence or child abuse, I'd be fired immediately. But then again, I never rushed for 2,000 yards in a season and no one would ever buy a shirt with my name on it.
Is that true in most unionized settings?

My knowledge of labor law consists of one class I took in law school, so I'm sure one of the other Swamp lawyers would know better than me, but I think that would all depend on the CBA between the union and the employer. A union could negotiate some type of formal process for disciplining/terminating employees, but it would totally depend on what's in the CBA. For example, the NFL CBA includes set penalties for drug suspensions, but gives the league much wider discretion on personal conduct issues.

degenerasian · Post by **degenerasian** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 6:11 pm

When I was younger I stole something at my work place. I never charged for it but still fired. And I considered that a blessing since the victim didn't press charges.

Steve of phpBB · Post by **Steve of phpBB** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 6:15 pm

Joe K wrote:I'm not sure if any of the other Swamp lawyers have already made this point, but all this talk from team and league officials about "due process" is total bullshit and is pissing me off. Due process is a limitation on what the government can do, and doesn't in any way limit the actions of a private employer. I'd like to think that I'm good at my job, but if I got arrested or indicted for domestic violence or child abuse, I'd be fired immediately. But then again, I never rushed for 2,000 yards in a season and no one would ever buy a shirt with my name on it.

(I'm also fairly certain that there's nothing in the CBA that's applicable to the Peterson or Rice situations either since, as Ben Roethlisberger found out, you don't even need to be charged with a crime to face discipline for personal conduct issues.)

Good point - due process is a limitation on government.

Also, because of the nature of criminal punishment, the government cannot act against someone for a crime without proof beyond a reasonable doubt. But an employer may legitimately have different goals than the government may have, and so may apply a different standard.

So I can see deferring to a criminal investigation if there is a real question about what happened or whodunnit. But if there is no question about what happened, then it is perfectly appropriate for an employer to act without waiting for the criminal investigation.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 6:16 pm

What was it?

Post by **brian** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 6:27 pm

degenerasian wrote:When I was younger I stole something at my work place. I never charged for it but still fired. And I considered that a blessing since the victim didn't press charges.

You didn't happen to work for Zman, did you?

EdRomero · Post by **EdRomero** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 6:34 pm

Joe K wrote:I'm not sure if any of the other Swamp lawyers have already made this point, but all this talk from team and league officials about "due process" is total bullshit and is pissing me off. Due process is a limitation on what the government can do, and doesn't in any way limit the actions of a private employer. I'd like to think that I'm good at my job, but if I got arrested or indicted for domestic violence or child abuse, I'd be fired immediately. But then again, I never rushed for 2,000 yards in a season and no one would ever buy a shirt with my name on it.

(I'm also fairly certain that there's nothing in the CBA that's applicable to the Peterson or Rice situations either since, as Ben Roethlisberger found out, you don't even need to be charged with a crime to face discipline for personal conduct issues.)

Maybe due process isn't the right phrase to describe this, but I'm guessing teams want to avoid a wrongful termination lawsuit. If someone is accused of abuse in my program, the policy is to remove the person from contact with children while there is an investigation to determine if the person should be fired.

sancarlos · Post by **sancarlos** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 6:48 pm

brian wrote:
degenerasian wrote:When I was younger I stole something at my work place. I never charged for it but still fired. And I considered that a blessing since the victim didn't press charges.
You didn't happen to work for Zman, did you?

Any of you oldtimers recall the pissing match years ago between Hood and Ojo over the concept of stealing office supplies from the workplace? Good times.

Joe K · Post by **Joe K** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 6:48 pm

EdRomero wrote:
Joe K wrote:I'm not sure if any of the other Swamp lawyers have already made this point, but all this talk from team and league officials about "due process" is total bullshit and is pissing me off. Due process is a limitation on what the government can do, and doesn't in any way limit the actions of a private employer. I'd like to think that I'm good at my job, but if I got arrested or indicted for domestic violence or child abuse, I'd be fired immediately. But then again, I never rushed for 2,000 yards in a season and no one would ever buy a shirt with my name on it.

(I'm also fairly certain that there's nothing in the CBA that's applicable to the Peterson or Rice situations either since, as Ben Roethlisberger found out, you don't even need to be charged with a crime to face discipline for personal conduct issues.)
Maybe due process isn't the right phrase to describe this, but I'm guessing teams want to avoid a wrongful termination lawsuit. If someone is accused of abuse in my program, the policy is to remove the person from contact with children while there is an investigation to determine if the person should be fired.

Considering that NFL contracts are non-guaranteed, and guys get cut all the time for all kinds of reasons, I'd say the risk of the Vikings losing a wrongful termination suit to Peterson is basically nonexistent. I saw some story the other day that within the past few years, the Vikings have cut guys immediately after they got arrested. But of course those other players weren't the best player on the team.

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 6:52 pm

mister d wrote:Knowing your status as "obvious choice to serve as group spokesperson", this one stings : (

I apologize. You're right. I'm generalizing.

Hey everyone...raise your hand if you actually don't see right through Delaware's holier than thou bullshit.

howard · Post by **howard** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:26 pm

DC47 wrote:To me, there's absolutely no shock or surprise in the Rice and Peterson cases. None at all. Nor in the way the NFL has responded. These things fit with my fundamental understanding of this industry.

Agree 100%.

HaulCitgo · Post by **HaulCitgo** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:29 pm

I think plenty of employers would overlook child abuse or domestic violence for an employee that rivaled AP on the field.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:31 pm

Jerloma wrote:
mister d wrote:Hey everyone...raise your hand if you actually don't see right through Delaware's holier than thou bullshit.

It's your repeated use of "holier than thou" that makes think you're subconsciously totally on the same page as me.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 8:10 pm

HaulCitgo wrote:I think plenty of employers would overlook child abuse or domestic violence for an employee that rivaled AP on the field.

Especially if the business was previously well known for terrible bosses and having a company outing on the S.S. Double Dildo

rass · Post by **rass** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 8:13 pm

sancarlos wrote:
brian wrote:
degenerasian wrote:When I was younger I stole something at my work place. I never charged for it but still fired. And I considered that a blessing since the victim didn't press charges.
You didn't happen to work for Zman, did you?
Any of you oldtimers recall the pissing match years ago between Hood and Ojo over the concept of stealing office supplies from the workplace? Good times.

Ojo! That's who it was.

Rex · Post by **Rex** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 8:56 pm

Seems like this should have been a bigger story no?

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/09/13/sp ... &referrer=" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 8:57 pm

Joe K wrote:
DC47 wrote:
Joe K wrote:I'm not sure if any of the other Swamp lawyers have already made this point, but all this talk from team and league officials about "due process" is total bullshit and is pissing me off. Due process is a limitation on what the government can do, and doesn't in any way limit the actions of a private employer. I'd like to think that I'm good at my job, but if I got arrested or indicted for domestic violence or child abuse, I'd be fired immediately. But then again, I never rushed for 2,000 yards in a season and no one would ever buy a shirt with my name on it.
Is that true in most unionized settings?
My knowledge of labor law consists of one class I took in law school, so I'm sure one of the other Swamp lawyers would know better than me, but I think that would all depend on the CBA between the union and the employer. A union could negotiate some type of formal process for disciplining/terminating employees, but it would totally depend on what's in the CBA. For example, the NFL CBA includes set penalties for drug suspensions, but gives the league much wider discretion on personal conduct issues.

Yep, CBA rules all in labor law. Except for discrimination and violations of law, of course. From what I know of the NFL CBA, the players get fucked over no matter what. Most contracts, and I'm sure the player contracts have a moral turpitude clause, stating that employees can be fired for any acts that make the company look bad. This doesn't require criminal charges, or even evidence of a crime. If an employee brings notoriety onto himself or the company, even if it is false accusations, they can fire the employee. In a high profile job such as future hall of fame running back, there is a good chance the media will pick up on it. In my experience, a high performing sales executive can get away with just about anything. The extent they take sexual harassment, abuse management and ignore policy and get away with it is astounding. Keep bringing in the money or rushing for TDs, you get a much longer rope. The Vikings really aren't acting any differently than most private companies would.

Weatherfrog · Post by **Weatherfrog** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 11:04 pm

Something I find interesting when scandals of this nature are revealed is how many people become moral absolutists. I regularly get in arguments with people who claim that moral relativism has won the day and that there are no moral absolutes. Then some big scandal happens and I am bombarded by people who are completely certain that the actor in the scandal is a terrible person and how can anyone see it any other way without also being a terrible person.

degenerasian · Post by **degenerasian** » Tue Sep 16, 2014 11:49 pm

mister d wrote:What was it?

Money.

Pruitt · Post by **Pruitt** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:51 am

Rex wrote:Seems like this should have been a bigger story no?

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/09/13/sp ... &referrer=" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Seriously. This is potentially more damaging than employing bad people to play the game.

the opening paragraph -

The National Football League, which for years disputed evidence that its players had a high rate of severe brain damage, has stated in federal court documents that it expects nearly a third of retired players to develop long-term cognitive problems and that the conditions are likely to emerge at “notably younger ages” than in the general population.

Johnny Hotcakes · Post by **Johnny Hotcakes** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:53 am

Jerloma wrote:
Johnny Hotcakes wrote:to Ray Rice and the Rice family,

hi im srry to hear about the events that have happened. when i first saw the elevator segment this morning on the news i thought they were talking about the centerplate ceo who beat his dog. then they said ur name and ur wife i dont know what happened but whatever the problem was it should have been dealt with in another fashion. i grew up watching jim brown, oj simpson and football players up to this day and i can honestly say that ray was the most energetic...im gonna give it my all type of player he was the greatest in my opinion i will miss u much ray just like the rest of knights may you be the greatest champ in heaven next to god and im sure he will protect you as well. to mrs. rice and ap’s child may god be with them as well...we love u ray and we will be waiting ur return to the field..........
Oh my god, I love you.

Love you too. I wasn't sure if anybody else would remember the great Chris Benoit invasion of '07.

Pruitt · Post by **Pruitt** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:14 am

So Adrian Peterson has been suspended indefinitely.

http://deadspin.com/vikings-change-thei ... 1635690571

He responded on Twitter with a well reasoned defense of his actions -

Think it's about time for God to tell him to shut his cakehole.

rass · Post by **rass** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:16 am

Johnny Hotcakes wrote:
Jerloma wrote:
Johnny Hotcakes wrote:to Ray Rice and the Rice family,

hi im srry to hear about the events that have happened. when i first saw the elevator segment this morning on the news i thought they were talking about the centerplate ceo who beat his dog. then they said ur name and ur wife i dont know what happened but whatever the problem was it should have been dealt with in another fashion. i grew up watching jim brown, oj simpson and football players up to this day and i can honestly say that ray was the most energetic...im gonna give it my all type of player he was the greatest in my opinion i will miss u much ray just like the rest of knights may you be the greatest champ in heaven next to god and im sure he will protect you as well. to mrs. rice and ap’s child may god be with them as well...we love u ray and we will be waiting ur return to the field..........
Oh my god, I love you.

Love you too. I wasn't sure if anybody else would remember the great Chris Benoit invasion of '07.

Shit. I didn't get the reference. That is good.

tennbengal · Post by **tennbengal** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:21 am

sancarlos wrote:
brian wrote:
degenerasian wrote:When I was younger I stole something at my work place. I never charged for it but still fired. And I considered that a blessing since the victim didn't press charges.
You didn't happen to work for Zman, did you?
Any of you oldtimers recall the pissing match years ago between Hood and Ojo over the concept of stealing office supplies from the workplace? Good times.

Batteries, mofo. It's about batteries. We're talking about batteries.

rass · Post by **rass** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:24 am

@votkingdom

My favorites are when he used the same template to solicit a personal trainer and a "video person". What he needs is an editor.

Pruitt · Post by **Pruitt** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:01 am

rass wrote:@votkingdom

My favorites are when he used the same template to solicit a personal trainer and a "video person". What he needs is an editor.

Ummm, you have to check out this site. A combination of religious quotes, gibberish, bad visual jokes, hot women and guys showing of their grills.

Twitter feed is also fun. https://twitter.com/VoicesOfThKingd/sta ... 1265868800

It includes this piece of wisdom:

Lord those that speak against me blow their my Financially!

Looks like Adrian Peterson's got himself some quality spiritual advisers.

tennbengal · Post by **tennbengal** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:05 am

The Goodell part of this still amuses me. This was always gonna be the endgame, at some point. People weirdly lauded him for the personal conduct policy BS when it started, and circle jerked when it was largely Bengals who were hit by it, but, I guess it's less fun when it happens to other players and teams. The issues I have always had with it have been laid bare by the events of the last few weeks --- when there are no standards, no measures, and no worry about logic or precedent, - hell, when there isn't even a clearly defined objective - then it is fated to eventually be clown shoes. Particularly when the personal conduct policy BS is run by a guy who appears to have fallen into his position by hanging around and putting in his time.

Add in that some punishments are collectively bargained (the drug stuff) with weirdly harsh penalites (like, say for pot) while the general mushy sense of how to handle offenses/incidents that "hurt the shield" are not, and you get the Rice outrage etc. For people who are hollering how can the NFL act with regard to guys who have not even been charged yet (McDonald) - well, were they hollering as loud when Goodell suspended Roethlisberger who was also never charged?

Pruitt · Post by **Pruitt** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:12 am

tennbengal wrote:The Goodell part of this still amuses me. This was always gonna be the endgame, at some point. People weirdly lauded him for the personal conduct policy BS when it started, and circle jerked when it was largely Bengals who were hit by it, but, I guess it's less fun when it happens to other players and teams. The issues I have always had with it have been laid bare by the events of the last few weeks --- when there are no standards, no measures, and no worry about logic or precedent, - hell, when there isn't even a clearly defined objective - then it is fated to eventually be clown shoes. Particularly when the person conduct policy BS is run by a guy who appears to have fallen into his position by hanging around and putting in his time.

Add in that some punishments are collectively bargained (the drug stuff) with weirdly harsh penalites (like, say for pot) while the general mushy sense of how to handle offenses/incidents that "hurt the shield) are not, and you get the Rice outrage etc. For people who are hollering how can the NFL act with regard to guys who have not even been charged yet (McDonald) - well, were they hollering as loud when Goodell suspended Roethlisberger who was also never charged?

Agree with all this except the Bengal paranoia.

But your point about the lack of standards is spot on. Like all good dictators, he was punishing on a whim.

And this "due process" bullshit is just an excuse for teams to do nothing. Amazing how the Vikings firm belief in waiting for all the facts to come out and for due process to run its course ended within 24 hours. Amazing how the threat of losing sponsors changed their minds.

Can't wait to see that reptilian slime ball Rick Spielman explain this change of heart.

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:14 am

Pruitt wrote:
Can't wait to see that reptilian slime ball Rick Spielman explain this change of heart.

I really think Spielman was in a bad position. I don't think he agreed with the things he was saying, but was just the mouthpiece.

tennbengal · Post by **tennbengal** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:14 am

re: Bengal paranoia...you weren't there! you can't know!

Joe K · Post by **Joe K** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:31 am

AB_skin_test wrote:
Pruitt wrote:
Can't wait to see that reptilian slime ball Rick Spielman explain this change of heart.
I really think Spielman was in a bad position. I don't think he agreed with the things he was saying, but was just the mouthpiece.

Given Zygi Wilf's less than stellar track record for ethical business conduct, it would not surprise me one bit if he made the decision and then threw Spielman under the bus and made him the mouthpiece.

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:47 am

Joe K wrote:
AB_skin_test wrote:
Pruitt wrote:
Can't wait to see that reptilian slime ball Rick Spielman explain this change of heart.
I really think Spielman was in a bad position. I don't think he agreed with the things he was saying, but was just the mouthpiece.
Given Zygi Wilf's less than stellar track record for ethical business conduct, it would not surprise me one bit if he made the decision and then threw Spielman under the bus and made him the mouthpiece.

I think this is correct. Spielman had to look at his notes for EVERY single answer and stumbled like a dolt over nearly all of them still.

We're getting to the point where teams need an actual Spokesman trained in this type of thing. Coaches and GMs probably aren't it in most cases - they are hired for specific skill sets and damage control shouldn't be one of them.

HaulCitgo · Post by **HaulCitgo** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:57 am

Why are these guys so scared to make a decision? The second guessing at the whims of public opinion is pathetic. No one associated with the NFL is acting with any ounce of principle. At this point it doesn't even matter what they stand for. Just choose something. NFL is being thrust into the deep end of social ills beyond what government has been willing to address. Was excited about this prospect. No more sweeping under the rug. But it is apparent that these guys aren't equipped for this. Whatever power Goodell and NFL had to act has been forfeited. A group of rich owners that can't seem to take power when its for the taking. I thought that was what rich guys did. Must have been mistaken when I thought that's what made you rich.

testuser2 · Post by **testuser2** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 8:11 am

I was in the car yesterday over lunch and dialed in Rush. His paraphrased take...

These guys come into the NFL doing this stuff. It's not the NFL that makes them this way. Where do the learn it? Well... they all went to college. So they must have learned this in college. That's where the problem is. These players are supposed to be college educated. So what are they teaching them anyway?

I have to applaud his originality. That's not what I expected him to use as an explanation.

Post by **Sabo** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 8:21 am

Deadspin bringing the heat against the "Elite NFL Media".

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 8:40 am

Pruitt wrote:So Adrian Peterson has been suspended indefinitely.

http://deadspin.com/vikings-change-thei ... 1635690571

You gotta be kidding me with this shit. What ever happened to people standing by their convictions? Whatever happened to just making a decision and owning it along with it's consequences. It's great that they get it right eventually but they still always come out looking like a bunch of spineless twats.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Wed Sep 17, 2014 8:46 am

Weatherfrog wrote:Something I find interesting when scandals of this nature are revealed is how many people become moral absolutists. I regularly get in arguments with people who claim that moral relativism has won the day and that there are no moral absolutes. Then some big scandal happens and I am bombarded by people who are completely certain that the actor in the scandal is a terrible person and how can anyone see it any other way without also being a terrible person.

I'm an absolutist on the act, not the person. I really have zero interest in hearing the other side on "stuffing leaves into a 4 year old's mouth and whipping them bloody".