Jason Collins (not dead)

[brian]

If there's anything worse than hippie lesbian Utahns, I don't want to know about it.

[The Sybian]

I've only seen one of their penises and it's not the gay one. Weird!

Do he do full frontal in a movie, or did he ask GPJ to autograph it?

He's done full frontal in like 3 or 4 movies. Most of them other than The Muppets.

And here I am, wasting time watching HIMYM and Freaks and Geeks when I could be seeing Segel cock elsewhere? Fuck!

[garyclark]

Syb, not trying to pick on you here, but the Christian Biblical abomination kick you've been on in this thread bothers me a bit. Not because I'm defending Christianity, but because you're giving too many others a pass.

Religion is undoubtedly the number one driver of traditional ignorant beliefs (whether they be fundamentalist Christian, Jews, Muslims or whatever) in this world. And there is significant homophobia in sports driven by Christian beliefs with the Black Male Christian movement, or whatever garbage Chris Broussard is pushing.

But I don't think most people who are homophobic are homophobic because the Bible tells them that it's wrong. I think they're homophobic for a lot of other reasons. And when we attribute homophobia to Bible-thumping nutjobs, it paints an inaccurate and insufficient picture of the problem.

I have met a lot of homophobic people in my life, starting in school. A miniscule percentage of those people cited Christianity as their reason, and frankly, I usually suspect there's more there with most of them. They're mostly scared and/or want to bully instead of be bullied and/or are not sure what to do with their gay feelings so they cover by overcompensating and/or have never been exposed to gay lifestyle beyond societal stereotypes and/or don't like people who are different, etc.

Now one might argue that Christianity is the primary driver of our social norms in contemporary Western society. Whatevs. I'm confident that homophobia pre-dated Christianity, because, well, it did. Hell, it pre-dates Judaism. I'd argue that the primary driver of homophobia is the need for men to feel manly. Machismo, for lack of a better term.

Machismo infiltrates no other sector of society more than sports (sorry, Wall Street traders). And this is why Collins' exodus (couldn't resist) is so important. It's not just the shower room B.S. It's that when you play a sport, you play it to physically dominate your opponent. There is a significant amount of homo-eroticism inherent to sport, and that makes athletes who want to be manly very uncomfortable. So they go out of their way to make sure everyone knows "they're a man." And any diversion from that meme is viewed as a direct threat on their manhood.

Christianity does not get a pass here, especially in sport, where religious charlatans plow the same fertile ground of millionaire ignorance that groupies do. But let's not limit our outcry to religion. Let's acknowledge that a much more complex and prevalent reason for homophobia is in the way that men view and value themselves.

[Rush2112]

He's excellent on the newest Sportsguy podcast.

[howard]

gc, I don't think you are picking on syb. I'll defend him anyway (a bit). The Christian fundy element gets an outsized share of the 'credit' for their market share of homophobia because they are quite loud and present in the media. Gotta props Westboro in particular.

That said, you make a great point, which my personal experience confirms. However, a lot of the homophobes who fit that bully/machismo/defense mechanism against their own internal gay impulses sure love to cite the Christian bible to back their view. Even if they hadn't seen the inside of a church since their own wedding.

Aw, on the other hand, fuck syb.

[sancarlos]

GC made reference to the Chris Broussard comments. Kind of "man bites dog" that all these tough NBA guys from the hood are either supportive or at least silent on the subject, while a guy from the liberal media speaks up in opposition to Collins.

[howard]

You mean an idiot sportscaster assumed until proven otherwise has a machismo inferiority problem spending his career around athletes, speaking up loudly and ignorantly to bolster his testosterone count.

[The Sybian]

Syb, not trying to pick on you here, but the Christian Biblical abomination kick you've been on in this thread bothers me a bit. Not because I'm defending Christianity, but because you're giving too many others a pass.

Religion is undoubtedly the number one driver of traditional ignorant beliefs (whether they be fundamentalist Christian, Jews, Muslims or whatever) in this world. And there is significant homophobia in sports driven by Christian beliefs with the Black Male Christian movement, or whatever garbage Chris Broussard is pushing.

But I don't think most people who are homophobic are homophobic because the Bible tells them that it's wrong. I think they're homophobic for a lot of other reasons. And when we attribute homophobia to Bible-thumping nutjobs, it paints an inaccurate and insufficient picture of the problem.

I have met a lot of homophobic people in my life, starting in school. A miniscule percentage of those people cited Christianity as their reason, and frankly, I usually suspect there's more there with most of them. They're mostly scared and/or want to bully instead of be bullied and/or are not sure what to do with their gay feelings so they cover by overcompensating and/or have never been exposed to gay lifestyle beyond societal stereotypes and/or don't like people who are different, etc.

Now one might argue that Christianity is the primary driver of our social norms in contemporary Western society. Whatevs. I'm confident that homophobia pre-dated Christianity, because, well, it did. Hell, it pre-dates Judaism. I'd argue that the primary driver of homophobia is the need for men to feel manly. Machismo, for lack of a better term.

Machismo infiltrates no other sector of society more than sports (sorry, Wall Street traders). And this is why Collins' exodus (couldn't resist) is so important. It's not just the shower room B.S. It's that when you play a sport, you play it to physically dominate your opponent. There is a significant amount of homo-eroticism inherent to sport, and that makes athletes who want to be manly very uncomfortable. So they go out of their way to make sure everyone knows "they're a man." And any diversion from that meme is viewed as a direct threat on their manhood.

Christianity does not get a pass here, especially in sport, where religious charlatans plow the same fertile ground of millionaire ignorance that groupies do. But let's not limit our outcry to religion. Let's acknowledge that a much more complex and prevalent reason for homophobia is in the way that men view and value themselves.

No worries, GC, I welcome dissent and being called out. And as Howard said, I don't think this is picking on me at all. I'm sure I am pissing off a lot of people with my rants about Christianity, and if I am pissing you off, by all means, let me know. Either publicly or in a PM if you don't want to start a scene. If you make a valid point, I will tone it down or even be persuaded to tone down my beliefs. I actually agree with What GC said, and I do believe that a lot of the people citing the Bible don't really give a fuck about most of what the Bible says, and that is part of my point. They could care less about wearing mixed fabrics, don't believe in stoning people for adultery, shave their beards, eat shell fish and pork and many don't go to church. The whole "the Bible says it's an abomination" thing is a lame excuse for them to justify their hate and bigotry to feel better about themselves, and in a lot of cases, they insecure or unsure about their own homosexual or bisexual tendencies and overcompensate by raging out against homosexuality. I also think the urban culture shuns homosexuality, or at least it used to. There seems to be an improvement there as well. I tend to focus my argument on the Christianity angle, because that is the only argument I have ever seen used to attempt to validate laws that discriminate against homosexuals. I fully understand that many if not most Christians aren't anti-gay or homophobic and many if anti-gay or homophobic people aren't Christians.

Also, Fundamentalist Christians trying to force their religious beliefs onto the rest of the country as law because their religion is "the one and only true and right religion" is my biggest gear grinder in life. I often let that anger and frustration boil over into tangentially related topics.

[Steve of phpBB]

No worries, GC, I welcome dissent and being called out. And as Howard said, I don't think this is picking on me at all. I'm sure I am pissing off a lot of people with my rants about Christianity, and if I am pissing you off, by all means, let me know. Either publicly or in a PM if you don't want to start a scene. If you make a valid point, I will tone it down or even be persuaded to tone down my beliefs. I actually agree with What GC said, and I do believe that a lot of the people citing the Bible don't really give a fuck about most of what the Bible says, and that is part of my point. They could care less about wearing mixed fabrics, don't believe in stoning people for adultery, shave their beards, eat shell fish and pork and many don't go to church. The whole "the Bible says it's an abomination" thing is a lame excuse for them to justify their hate and bigotry to feel better about themselves, and in a lot of cases, they insecure or unsure about their own homosexual or bisexual tendencies and overcompensate by raging out against homosexuality. I also think the urban culture shuns homosexuality, or at least it used to. There seems to be an improvement there as well. I tend to focus my argument on the Christianity angle, because that is the only argument I have ever seen used to attempt to validate laws that discriminate against homosexuals. I fully understand that many if not most Christians aren't anti-gay or homophobic and many if anti-gay or homophobic people aren't Christians.

In other words, you really want the D and they are making you feel guilty about it.

[Jerloma]

It's almost as if because we live in a society that protects and coddles the words of a bunch of barbaric stone aged goat herders, it allows people to use those words to justify their own inherent bigotries. Let's not kid ourselves though...if you promote the incredibly flawed proposition that faith is a virtue...you don't get to decide which of these propositions are actually divine mandates. In fact, if you promote the incredibly flawed proposition that faith is a virtue...you're protecting the bigots that use religion to justify their behavior without even realizing it. Syb likes to point out that there are like 30,000 different types of Christianity to show that it has nothing to do with divinity and everything to do with people finding something that can conform with their own worldview so that they can live their lives on their terms but still call themselves a Christian. I'm starting to think that's BS. There are as many types of Christianity as there are Christians.

[Scottie]

Also, Fundamentalist Christians trying to force their religious beliefs onto the rest of the country as law because their religion is "the one and only true and right religion" is my biggest gear grinder in life.

Mentally, if not further reaching, there is little difference between the christian American Taliban and their islamic counterparts over in the Mohammadistans.

ETA: And, at least from my observations, Muslims do far far far less proselytizing.

[howard]

My only problem with Syb calling out Christians is it will encourage J-lo to spread his hatred out of his designated ghetto/thread.

(I keed, I keed, because I love.)

[howard]

ETA: And, at least from my observations, Muslims do far far far less proselytizing.

But a fuck of a lot more bombing (mostly over there; they are both top of the table over here, when you count clinic bombings).

[Scottie]

But a fuck of a lot more bombing (mostly over there; they are both top of the table over here, when you count clinic bombings).

Ah, c'mon, you know just what I mean. But since it would take some serious reach to work a gay basketball player into a response to that, I'll save it for the Religion thread.

[The Sybian]

Also, Fundamentalist Christians trying to force their religious beliefs onto the rest of the country as law because their religion is "the one and only true and right religion" is my biggest gear grinder in life.

Mentally, if not further reaching, there is little difference between the christian American Taliban and their islamic counterparts over in the Mohammadistans.

ETA: And, at least from my observations, Muslims do far far far less proselytizing.

The only difference is, we are right and they are wrong! Note, both sides are saying this statement.

[DSafetyGuy]

You mean an idiot sportscaster assumed until proven otherwise has a machismo inferiority problem spending his career around athletes, speaking up loudly and ignorantly to bolster his testosterone count.

Broussard may have some extra testosterone from his days playing basketball for Oberlin College. That said, having a slightly elevated amount of testosterone there is probably more than two of your average fellow male students have combined.

[Gunpowder]

Oberlin is the gayest thing yet mentioned in this thread. They probably drink fruity gin drinks on campus and call them a Jason Collins.

[howard]

Ah, c'mon, you know just what I mean.

Of course. And that you are well aware of this pertinent fact.

I merely took an opportunity to remind folks of this pertinent fact; Islamic jihadists are killing more people in a single day like today in the Middle East, South Asia, Western China and Indonesia than have been killed in the entire western part of the world since 9/12/2012.

Christianity has their record; but unless you count the US armed forces as a fundamental Christian motivated organization (and a fair argument can certainly be made for that view), right now those crazies are doing the killing, the Christians not so much.

That can turn on a dime, though. Hence, I hate all murderers, regardless of motive, religious or otherwise. Just updating the scoreboard.

[Jerloma]

Islam...same thing. Most of them are wonderful people but as long as they're clinging to this idea that some pedophile who flies horses from 1200 years ago has provided them with divine mandates, they're laying out a red carpet for those jihadists.

[Steve of phpBB]

Ah, c'mon, you know just what I mean.

Of course. And that you are well aware of this pertinent fact.

I merely took an opportunity to remind folks of this pertinent fact; Islamic jihadists are killing more people in a single day like today in the Middle East, South Asia, Western China and Indonesia than have been killed in the entire western part of the world since 9/12/2012.

Christianity has their record; but unless you count the US armed forces as a fundamental Christian motivated organization (and a fair argument can certainly be made for that view), right now those crazies are doing the killing, the Christians not so much.

That can turn on a dime, though. Hence, I hate all murderers, regardless of motive, religious or otherwise. Just updating the scoreboard.

It's just a phase religions go through when they are about 1400 years old.

[The Sybian]

You mean an idiot sportscaster assumed until proven otherwise has a machismo inferiority problem spending his career around athletes, speaking up loudly and ignorantly to bolster his testosterone count.

Broussard may have some extra testosterone from his days playing basketball for Oberlin College. That said, having a slightly elevated amount of testosterone there is probably more than two of your average fellow male students have combined.

I didn't comment on Broussard before because I didn't see the clip until just now. I gotta say, I'm not finding the clip to be that big of a deal. He calls out pre-marital sex as being as bad as gay, so I don't think you can call him a bigot or anti-gay.

[Jerloma]

And here you have it...the dumbest thing ever published. Well...today anyway.

[Shirley]

Well, I DO get tired of all of the gay players on both teams circling up after the game and blowing each other right there on the field.

[Jerloma]

How courageous of Tebow though to publicly declare himself a Christian in a league where only like every other person calls himself a Christian.

[rass]

Well, I DO get tired of all of the gay players on both teams circling up after the game and blowing each other right there on the field.

It's especially inappropriate during injury timeouts.

[garyclark]

Just to reiterate, I have zero problem with anyone calling out Christianity for homophobia. Tried to make that clear in my initial post. Zero problem. And I share Syb's loathing of fundamentalist Christianity.

My point is that it is far too simple of a target. We all know that it plays a huge role. But there is so much more to homophobia in our society. And as a board primarily - if not exclusively at this point - of males, I think we should acknowledge that and not intimate that it's just a bunch of Jesus freaks. Because it's a significant part of male culture in America, independent of religion. I think that's changing, and that's good. But it's still there.

Syb, I do disagree with you about Broussard: if you call homosexuality an "open rebellion against God" and "a sin", I think you are an ignorant bigot. Period. He equates premarital sex with homosexuality when in most places homosexual marriage is still illegal. He even tries to play the "I even have gay friends" card with LZ Granderson. Which is just about one of the most hypocritical things I've ever read.

Jerloma, I have no idea what you were talking about with your 30,000 Christians post. I read it three time and became dizzy. Feel free to clarify.

[Jerloma]

Jerloma, I have no idea what you were talking about with your 30,000 Christians post. I read it three time and became dizzy. Feel free to clarify.

There are 30,000 denominations of Christianity, which means that the Christian God is such a poor communicator with his creation that he's allowed for 30,000 separate and distinct interpretations of his will to be identified as a religion. What this in turn means is that people are using a source of morality outside of Christianity to arbitrarily decide what they like about Christianity so that they can pretend that their own personal worldview is divinely inspired. In fact, I think each individual Christian has their own worldview and simply identifies themselves as a Christian because of things like confirmation bias, social conformity, etc. So it's become so watered down that it actually means nothing anymore. If you want to be the most charitable person in the world, you can credit Christianity. If you want to be a jew hating, homo-hating bigot, you can credit Christianity. If you want drop a few atomic bombs on a country, you credit Christianity. If you want to feed the poor, you can credit Christianity. Fuck...according to Steve, you don't have to think Jesus was the son of God to identify as a Christian.

So unlike you, I do have a problem with calling out Christianity for homophobia. I also have a problem with crediting it for charity. People are who they are and completely responsible for their own actions. It's just that because religion has set itself up for so long to be beyond criticism, anyone can use it to reinforce any behavior that they want. That's where the real danger lies.

[The Sybian]

Just to reiterate, I have zero problem with anyone calling out Christianity for homophobia. Tried to make that clear in my initial post. Zero problem. And I share Syb's loathing of fundamentalist Christianity.

My point is that it is far too simple of a target. We all know that it plays a huge role. But there is so much more to homophobia in our society. And as a board primarily - if not exclusively at this point - of males, I think we should acknowledge that and not intimate that it's just a bunch of Jesus freaks. Because it's a significant part of male culture in America, independent of religion. I think that's changing, and that's good. But it's still there.

Syb, I do disagree with you about Broussard: if you call homosexuality an "open rebellion against God" and "a sin", I think you are an ignorant bigot. Period. He equates premarital sex with homosexuality when in most places homosexual marriage is still illegal. He even tries to play the "I even have gay friends" card with LZ Granderson. Which is just about one of the most hypocritical things I've ever read.

Jerloma, I have no idea what you were talking about with your 30,000 Christians post. I read it three time and became dizzy. Feel free to clarify.

I understood your first post, and I do agree with you. Maybe I am being lazy or just going after the biggest target, or just blinded by my frustration in other arguments to get past the loudest argument. As for Broussard, he has gay friends, so he can't be a bigot, right? That argument always trumps all! Yeah, I guess the "open rebellion" line is pretty bad, but I focused on his equating homosexuality with pre-marital sex. But that was probably a load of crap anyways. I don't know anything about Broussard, though, so I'm not going to judge the guy.

As for the 30,000 forms of Christianity, J-Lo and I had a disagreement a couple Swamps ago about who could properly call themselves a Christian. J-Lo made an argument to the affect that if someone didn't strictly adhere to the tenants of the religion, they couldn't call themselves a Christian, where I said something like if you took 30,000 Christians you would find 30,000 forms of Christianity. Basically, J-Lo is the Scalia of Bible-thumping. Maybe that is the difference of being taught religion from a Catholic versus Jewish background. Or J-Lo is just a mother fucking stickler and a prick.

[The Sybian]

As for the 30,000 forms of Christianity, J-Lo and I had a disagreement a couple Swamps ago about who could properly call themselves a Christian. J-Lo made an argument to the affect that if someone didn't strictly adhere to the tenants of the religion, they couldn't call themselves a Christian, where I said something like if you took 30,000 Christians you would find 30,000 forms of Christianity. Basically, J-Lo is the Scalia of Bible-thumping. Maybe that is the difference of being taught religion from a Catholic versus Jewish background. Or J-Lo is just a mother fucking stickler and a prick.

Maybe I should take advantage of that feature where you can read new posts that go up while you were typing before submitting. Man, I sure got that one wrong.

[Jerloma]

I didn't say that. I said that once you start arbitrarily cherry-picking a book that you consider to be divinely inspired in order to find something you're comfortable with, you're admitting that your morality comes from a source other than your religion...and the whole thing goes to shit. You can call yourself a Christian all you want, but I don't buy it. I give you humans more credit than you give yourselves. It's absurd.

Isn't Scalia the the Scalia of Bible-thumping?

[duff]

Or J-Lo is just a mother fucking prick.

This is the correct answer.

[Jerloma]

Or J-Lo is just a mother fucking prick.

This is the correct answer.

Life is so easy when you don't have to think, isn't it?

[The Sybian]

Or J-Lo is just a mother fucking prick.

This is the correct answer.

Life is so easy when you don't have to think, isn't it?

Don't make me think, prick.

[howard]

Karl Welzein ‏@DadBoner 3h
There's tons of NBA guys wastin' dough on random kids they made. Heard that Shawn Kemp has like 17. If he was into dudes, he'd be loaded.

Karl Welzein ‏@DadBoner 3h
As a professional athlete, safe and consensual guy on guy passions behind the scenes just makes good financial sense.

[Steve of phpBB]

Karl Welzein ‏@DadBoner 3h
There's tons of NBA guys wastin' dough on random kids they made. Heard that Shawn Kemp has like 17. If he was into dudes, he'd be loaded.

Karl Welzein ‏@DadBoner 3h
As a professional athlete, safe and consensual guy on guy passions behind the scenes just makes good financial sense.

Brilliant!

[brian]

DadBoner was somehow not the only person to compare Jason Collins and Shawn Kemp.

Of course, that column isn't a joke or satire unfortunately.

[degenerasian]

yeah if Manti Teo declared that he was gay right now, would that be a jackie robinson moment?

Or does it have to be an even bigger star like RGIII for example.

[Scottie]

yeah if Manti Teo declared that he was gay right now, would that be a jackie robinson moment?

It would be if his boyfriend wasn't imaginary.

[Johnnie]

yeah if Manti Teo declared that he was gay right now, would that be a jackie robinson moment?

It would be if his boyfriend wasn't imaginary.

[The Sybian]

yeah if Manti Teo declared that he was gay right now, would that be a jackie robinson moment?

His girlfriend was actually a gay guy, so he is part way there.