AFC Championship - Pats/Colts

[mister d]

My sarcastic point was "you can make up a favorable alternate story for almost any event ever in the history of the world".

[brian]

At worst, Occam's Razor points to some kind of shenanigans with these balls.

[Jerloma]

Oh God. I hate to rehash this but again...a bodyguard blocking the door is meaningless in that situation. There's no question as to whether or not there was intercourse. Everyone knows that. In regards to the forced intercourse, if you're a high profile NFL QB and were having consensual sex in a public bathroom, you'd still have your bodyguard block the door. This is by no means a defense of him either. It's inconsequential.

[mister d]

See.

[Rex]

Again, the league is imposing internal sanctions to resolve a private dispute with its members, that are frankly not that severe in the big picture (and that will probably be negotiated downward). They don't need much proof to do that.

[Jerloma]

See.

No. It's not an alternate story. There's two people having sex in a public bathroom. It's either consensual or not. In either case, the bodyguard would be blocking the door. You can't use the bodyguard as an argument for it being non-consensual.

[brian]

One other point. If the texts were really all about McNally trying to lose weight, then the team should be throwing all of its support behind him like it is Brady. Oh wait, they've suspended him.

[Nonlinear FC]

Again, the league is imposing internal sanctions to resolve a private dispute with its members, that are frankly not that severe in the big picture (and that will probably be negotiated downward). They don't need much proof to do that.

And, again, MANY thousands of words have been burned on this forum over the years talking about the bullshit, arbitrary, reactionary and inconsistent manner in which many/most of these internal sanctions are investigated and doled out. By many of the people in this thread.

[A_B]

I think they shoudl keep lying and see if Brady actually gets 8 games after the appeal.

[mister d]

WellsReportContext.com: "Well ... yes ... but that's because ... think about it. Where do you think he's getting money for food? From his paycheck that we provide. The best way we can help him lose weight is to cut off the source of his food money."

Rush: "See. You guys are idiots."

[Rex]

Again, the league is imposing internal sanctions to resolve a private dispute with its members, that are frankly not that severe in the big picture (and that will probably be negotiated downward). They don't need much proof to do that.

And, again, MANY thousands of words have been burned on this forum over the years talking about the bullshit, arbitrary, reactionary and inconsistent manner in which many/most of these internal sanctions are investigated and doled out. By many of the people in this thread.

These are probably the same people who complain when their bosses don't give them a raise. Some people, I tell you.

[mister d]

And, again, MANY thousands of words have been burned on this forum over the years talking about the bullshit, arbitrary, reactionary and inconsistent manner in which many/most of these internal sanctions are investigated and doled out. By many of the people in this thread.

I don't think believing Brady is 100% guilty and believing this whole process has been preposterous are mutually exclusive.

[Nonlinear FC]

:D

Look, guys, I'm so not vested in this from a fan perspective. If I'm being honest, it's more about a dislike of the League than anything else. I don't hate the Patriots and I tend to want former Michigan guys do well so... yeah Brady? (he's never really been a guy I've really liked all that much, so it's kind of a grudging respect... but who the fuck cares, definitely not Brady.)

But this absolutely looked like a slam dunk case of cheating when it first got reported, and then as the Wells Report "facts" corroborated that narrative.

And I think the Patriots did, and are continuing to do a shitty job introducing a counter-narrative. Most of that was coming from unhinged Pats fans. No offense, but that's not who you want carrying your water. Nor do you want Brady's asshole agent all over the place, because asshole... and greasy... and asshole.

That website is an absolute shitshow. It seriously looks like a high school kid slapped that together. An executive summary is not 10k words. That's a report. With an actual exec summ making some of the points I made, you know have a concise counter-narrative. Force a reporter to read that massive pile of words? They're going to tell you to fuck off and either ignore it, or fuck up the key points.

But knowing more about "normal procedure" pre-game, about the set-up of the locker rooms, and really reading those texts objectively... I'm just not buying that this was a big orchestrated, long-term collusion to put illegally weighted balls into play.

[Jerloma]

I'm just not buying that this was a big orchestrated, long-term collusion to put illegally weighted balls into play.

Amateur hour.

[Rush2112]

WellsReportContext.com: "Well ... yes ... but that's because ... think about it. Where do you think he's getting money for food? From his paycheck that we provide. The best way we can help him lose weight is to cut off the source of his food money."

Rush: "See. You guys are idiots."

.

It's actually Rush: " Yup, Delaware is still a trolling asshole who only cares because it's a place for him to be snarky and get people to join in his his circle-jerk. "

[DaveInSeattle]

Mr. Jastremski would sometimes work out and bulk up — he is a slender guy and his goal was to get to 200 pounds. Mr. McNally is a big fellow and had the opposite goal: to lose weight. "Deflate" was a term they used to refer to losing weight. One can specifically see this use of the term in a Nov. 30, 2014 text from Mr. McNally to Mr. Jastremski: "deflate and give somebody that jacket." (p. 87). This banter, and Mr. McNally's goal of losing weight, meant Mr. McNally was the "deflator." There was nothing complicated or sinister about it. If there was any doubt about the jocular nature of the May 9, 2014 texts, a review of all the texts between these two men that day would dispel it.

My god....is that really the defense they are going with?

Some lawyer in Boston got paid a lot of money to come up with that....

[Johnnie]

Yea, I got nothing. This is a shitshow's shitshow.

A simple fine would have sufficed before the Super Bowl. But yea. This is batshit.

[DaveInSeattle]

Yea, I got nothing. This is a shitshow's shitshow.

A simple fine would have sufficed before the Super Bowl. But yea. This is batshit.

If Brady had put on the Tiger Wood/A-Rod approved "Good Boy Sweater", done an interview with a friendly face (guessing he's got Jim Grey on speed dial), soft-pedalled it by saying "Mistakes were made", and that Murph and Sully were well-intentioned but took his requests too far, there's no doubt is suspension would be reduced, if not dropped completely. There's no way the NFL wants to suspend the Golden Boy for the season opener.

But all this nonsense? Wow....don't they have any good PR/Crisis Management people in Boston?

[brian]

Yea, I got nothing. This is a shitshow's shitshow.

A simple fine would have sufficed before the Super Bowl. But yea. This is batshit.

If Brady had put on the Tiger Wood/A-Rod approved "Good Boy Sweater", done an interview with a friendly face (guessing he's got Jim Grey on speed dial), soft-pedalled it by saying "Mistakes were made", and that Murph and Sully were well-intentioned but took his requests too far, there's no doubt is suspension would be reduced, if not dropped completely. There's no way the NFL wants to suspend the Golden Boy for the season opener.

But all this nonsense? Wow....don't they have any good PR/Crisis Management people in Boston?

This is an entire organization that thinks they're above the rules. It's a corporate culture that thinks that everyone outside of it is out to get them. Of course not.

[DC47]

I agree with every point made below. The evidence is far less strong than most (who are not Patriots fans) claim. This is astute out-of-the-box thinking about a polarizing topic.

I also think that the Wells report conclusion is right. It's more probable than not that Brady was at fault.

Further, despite the modest evidence about the primary point (ball deflation), I think that he and the Patriots got off very light for the lying and unwillingness to hand over phones. Unless my lawyers told me this couldn't be defended, I'd suspend Brady and create escalating penalties for the Patriots until I believed that they had fully acknowledged their lies and turned over all requested evidence. The NBA did far more to Donald Sterling for something that is far less significant to the governance of the respective leagues.

Despite being a mix of 'pro Brady' and 'con Brady' items, if you want to characterize them in this over-simple manner, these points are not at all inconsistent with each other.

I'll add a few more:

- Most teams do worse than deflating balls every year, and mostly get away with it because the league cares little for fairness. Only for enough fairness that marketing goals are met.

- The NFL has lax and/or stupid policies about ball deflation, as well as so many other policies (e.g., PEDs) and on-field rules. They also are bizarrely inconsistent in terms of enforcement. A big problem is the quality of refereeing, which is done largely by part-timers, unlike any other major sporting league. Yet no one ever talks about 'accountability' for the executives who allow this to be the case, year after year. Severely cutting Goodell's salary until he gets this right would be warranted. And certainly hiring better executives who deal directly with these matters. But only if this matters to those that control the league. It so clearly does not.

- This deflation cat got out of the bag only because others made that happen, not the deaf-blind-dumb NFL. Then they went into their equivalent of the two-minute scandal drill. The league HQ was then forced to do their routine of 'independent investigation' followed by 'major penalty' (which would have been steeply discounted later).

What a fucked-up sport is pro football. If I hadn't grown up loving it, I would not be a fan today. It's like rooting for America in foreign policy. Sometimes I wish the brain damage issue would hurry up already and force the league to fundamentally change and/or drop into the realm of secondary sport along with boxing and bike racing.

Have you guys read it? I have to say, and you've seen me give Pats fans a little shit here... I think there's something to the organization's claims that this was all bullshit.

There are some legitimate explanations for just about all of the "facts" in the Wells report. And there is no question that they took those texts and ran with them, even though there 1) are credible alternative interpretations and 2) they don't ever talk about deflating balls to a psi below the league rules. They spent just as much, if not more time joking about over-inflating them. And that discussion took place after the Jets over-inflation fiasco.

The guy going into the bathroom before the game... The ONLY explanation is he was going to deflate those balls in a minute forty seconds? Not that he used the much less crowded john (officials area was packed, apparently) to take a piss? I'm not saying it's not possible that he was in there up to no good... But it sure seems as likely that prior to being outside for the next, I dunno, hour he might need to go.

Also, he had possession of those balls for a LONG FUCKING TIME. To properly deflate those balls, he would've need to take them out and keep them organized and not screw up the job. There was still 20 minutes to game time. Why the fuck would he rush through that job? That makes very little sense to me.

I'm sorry, I know a lot of you guys are fully committed to the idea that a) Brady had full knowledge of efforts to deflate the balls below legal levels and b) these equipment guys were in cohoots to carry out this nefarious plan. But, I'm really not sure there's ANY evidence, other than speculation, that actually bears that out.

I mean, maybe I'm being gullible, but it sure seems like a lot of folks that spent a lot of time talking about what a shitty, reactionary, bullshit organization the NFL is are way too quick to just buy the Wells report without considering the source.

[EdRomero]

Well, if there's one thing we've learned in all this it's that Adam Schefter hasn't ever been wrong in his reporting on this subject.

Not even close.

Pro tip for you, Romero. Just because a reporter wants something to be true doesn't make it true. Schefter's been wrong all along on this entire story. Would be an interesting time for him to be right for the first time.

Good advice. I saw you guys were very cynical with Mortensen's initial report. Also, an arbitrator may make Schefter right after all.

Much of the Patriots' report is disproving Wells's assertion that that balls were deflated beyond natural causes. I haven't seen much discussion about this part of the argument (specifically, what are the Patriots (and others who have disputed Wells's science) wrong about?). Granted, discussing Dorito Dinks is more entertaining, but whether or not the balls were even deflated is more important.

[Nonlinear FC]

I didn't bring that up but there are major problems with science in the Wells report. All the way down to the fact that the patriot balls were tested at the beginning of halftime (still cold - deflated) while Colts were tested 10-15 minutes later (warmer - inflated). They also used two gauges pre-game and at halftime and they used the one that was more damning while the other gauge showed the Pats balls at halftime being consistent with weather related deflation per science.

I mean, I'm just paraphrasing Pats lawyers, but if their rebuttal is accurate? There are HUGE issues with every aspect of that report.

[Rush2112]

Mr. Jastremski would sometimes work out and bulk up — he is a slender guy and his goal was to get to 200 pounds. Mr. McNally is a big fellow and had the opposite goal: to lose weight. "Deflate" was a term they used to refer to losing weight. One can specifically see this use of the term in a Nov. 30, 2014 text from Mr. McNally to Mr. Jastremski: "deflate and give somebody that jacket." (p. 87). This banter, and Mr. McNally's goal of losing weight, meant Mr. McNally was the "deflator." There was nothing complicated or sinister about it. If there was any doubt about the jocular nature of the May 9, 2014 texts, a review of all the texts between these two men that day would dispel it.

My god....is that really the defense they are going with?

Some lawyer in Boston got paid a lot of money to come up with that....

Yup those few lines out of a 60+ page rebuttal. Read the document rather than basing everything off a tweet.

[brian]

Mr. Jastremski would sometimes work out and bulk up — he is a slender guy and his goal was to get to 200 pounds. Mr. McNally is a big fellow and had the opposite goal: to lose weight. "Deflate" was a term they used to refer to losing weight. One can specifically see this use of the term in a Nov. 30, 2014 text from Mr. McNally to Mr. Jastremski: "deflate and give somebody that jacket." (p. 87). This banter, and Mr. McNally's goal of losing weight, meant Mr. McNally was the "deflator." There was nothing complicated or sinister about it. If there was any doubt about the jocular nature of the May 9, 2014 texts, a review of all the texts between these two men that day would dispel it.

My god....is that really the defense they are going with?

Some lawyer in Boston got paid a lot of money to come up with that....

Yup those few lines out of a 60+ page rebuttal. Read the document rather than basing everything off a tweet.

Says the guy who couldn't be bothered to even read the original report.

[Gunpowder]

Rush is right, in the other 59 pages it says "oh by the way we're not actually saying he called himself the Deflator because he was fat, just checking to see if you guys are reading everything".

Put down the pitchforks, haterz.

[Nonlinear FC]

Mr. Jastremski would sometimes work out and bulk up — he is a slender guy and his goal was to get to 200 pounds. Mr. McNally is a big fellow and had the opposite goal: to lose weight. "Deflate" was a term they used to refer to losing weight. One can specifically see this use of the term in a Nov. 30, 2014 text from Mr. McNally to Mr. Jastremski: "deflate and give somebody that jacket." (p. 87). This banter, and Mr. McNally's goal of losing weight, meant Mr. McNally was the "deflator." There was nothing complicated or sinister about it. If there was any doubt about the jocular nature of the May 9, 2014 texts, a review of all the texts between these two men that day would dispel it.

My god....is that really the defense they are going with?

Some lawyer in Boston got paid a lot of money to come up with that....

Yup those few lines out of a 60+ page rebuttal. Read the document rather than basing everything off a tweet.

Everyone is doing this including the NYT and it's driving me crazy. That is not even a key point about the texts. The key point is that the texts don't ever(!) talk about anything that can be considered outside of the rules, 2) Brady never even brings the topic up and 3) the Wells report mia mischaracterized just about all of the selected snippets.

[Gunpowder]

You guys can say that all you want but it doesn't make it any less hilarious that this guy is the Deflator because he's on a diet.

[brian]

So which of these two is more likely:

1) A QB with a stated preference for underflated footballs has a couple of low level lackeys help him reduce the air pressure a little bit in the game balls.

2) A massive string of Three's Company level misunderstandings in text message and forensic data as well as botched science, data, and law work by highly respected scientists and lawyers inadvertently leads to an innocent QB being punished for something he didn't do.

ETA: This is on top of the fact that the league had/has every incentive to want to see Brady and the Pats exonerated so as not to ruin their opening night circle jerk and because the owner of the team and Goodell are BFFs.

[Brontoburglar]

You guys can say that all you want but it doesn't make it any less hilarious that this guy is the Deflator because he's on a diet.

Gonna go on a bulking cycle and call myself the inflatpr.

Or when I go to the gym looking for the pump, gonna scream "I AM THE INFLATOR"

[Nonlinear FC]

You guys can say that all you want but it doesn't make it any less hilarious that this guy is the Deflator because he's on a diet.

It is absolutely hilarious and a clear sign that this website rebuttal wasn't well thought out. Again, I'm not a blind zealot defender here.

[Rush2112]

Says the guy who couldn't be bothered to even read the original report.

Are you a member of Wells' law firm? I said I couldn't read at the time.

Have since read it and the majority of the rebuttle. I'm sure you just posted, complained, then crowed about how awesome the 3rd guy out of the pen for the Tigers is.

[Rush2112]

You guys can say that all you want but it doesn't make it any less hilarious that this guy is the Deflator because he's on a diet.

It is absolutely hilarious and a clear sign that this website rebuttal wasn't well thought out. Again, I'm not a blind zealot defender here.

Its so stupid that it has to be true... And every discussion leads with how stupid it is and how everyone will zero in on it.

[HaulCitgo]

You guys can say that all you want but it doesn't make it any less hilarious that this guy is the Deflator because he's on a diet.

Gonna go on a bulking cycle and call myself the inflatpr.

Or when I go to the gym looking for the pump, gonna scream "I AM THE INFLATOR"

Think Dana Carvey and Kevin Nealon have already made all the dough off that one... so not quite so far fetched.

[A_B]

So which of these two is more likely:

1) A QB with a stated preference for underflated footballs has a couple of low level lackeys help him reduce the air pressure a little bit in the game balls.

2) A massive string of Three's Company level misunderstandings in text message and forensic data as well as botched science, data, and law work by highly respected scientists and lawyers inadvertently leads to an innocent QB being punished for something he didn't do.

ETA: This is on top of the fact that the league had/has every incentive to want to see Brady and the Pats exonerated so as not to ruin their opening night circle jerk and because the owner of the team and Goodell are BFFs.

I'm agreeing wholeheartedly with Brian again! Cats and Chippewas living together!

[EdRomero]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... dy-appeal/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Per multiple reports (i.e., the league is affirmatively getting out the word), Goodell personally will handle the appeal of Brady’s four-game suspension.

The decision comes only two weeks after the Missouri Supreme Court found that Goodell can’t be truly independent in disputes involving the teams that employ him. In this case, however, Goodell has on one hand a desire to placate Patriots owner Robert Kraft and on the other hand a desire to further bolster the notion that Goodell will never again go too easy on someone accused of wrongdoing. Maybe those two competing desires will result in Goodell striking a fair balance.

Or maybe they’ll ensure that, no matter the outcome, Goodell will be relentless criticized.

Regardless, Goodell now will be asked to validate the work of the independent investigator he hired to investigate the case and the efforts of the senior executive to whom Goodell gave the authority to make the initial decision. If Goodell scuttles or adjusts in any way the decisions of Ted Wells and Troy Vincent, Goodell will look foolish for entrusting the situation to them in the first place.

As the NFL Players Association has argued, if the evidence against Brady is so strong, Goodell should welcome the opportunity to have a truly independent arbitrator examine it. But that would set a dangerous precedent at a time when more and more people are realizing that the Commissioner never can be truly independent in cases of his nature.

My prediction: Goodell reduces it to 2 so everyone outside of New England will say how he's buddies with Kraft, and then Brady sues the NFL exposing the commissioner to be an inept power hungry schmuck, just like every time a case is brought outside the NFL.

[EdRomero]

So which of these two is more likely:

1) A QB with a stated preference for underflated footballs has a couple of low level lackeys help him reduce the air pressure a little bit in the game balls.

2) A massive string of Three's Company level misunderstandings in text message and forensic data as well as botched science, data, and law work by highly respected scientists and lawyers inadvertently leads to an innocent QB being punished for something he didn't do.

ETA: This is on top of the fact that the league had/has every incentive to want to see Brady and the Pats exonerated so as not to ruin their opening night circle jerk and because the owner of the team and Goodell are BFFs.

1. He has never stated a preference for illegally underinflated balls. Wells report only cites evidence that he wants the balls at 12.5
2. Highly respected scientist? Wells hired scientists who specialize in proving whatever the client wants to prove, and now the science they used is being contested. I'm still waiting for anyone to say where the science disputing Wells' report is wrong.
ETA: If this were true, why would the league allow Mortensen's erroneous leak be uncontested for months? Goodell has taken a beating for how he's handled Rice and Peterson. When this was brought to him, he saw it as an opportunity to show the league he's in charge and running a tight ship by going after and being tough to his good friend Robert Kraft.

[DaveInSeattle]

So which of these two is more likely:

1) A QB with a stated preference for underflated footballs has a couple of low level lackeys help him reduce the air pressure a little bit in the game balls.

2) A massive string of Three's Company level misunderstandings in text message and forensic data as well as botched science, data, and law work by highly respected scientists and lawyers inadvertently leads to an innocent QB being punished for something he didn't do.

I don't know....did anyone trip and fall over a couch? Because that would definitely indicate #2

[brian]

Oh, man if only ESPN employed a legal analyst to make sense of all this contradictory information.

Oh wait, they do.

Q: The Patriots' rebuttal Thursday was aggressive and detailed. What was the purpose of this attack on Goodell and the investigation?

A: It is possible the Patriots' rebuttal will become the foundation for a lawsuit against Goodell and the league. But it is more likely that the purpose of the rebuttal was a form of damage control. It offers material for the Patriots' true-believer fans to use as they continue to support their beloved team.

Emphasis mine. You guys are like 9/11 truthers only vastly more entertaining.

[A_B]

I think I could have taken a video of Tom Brady physically putting air back into those balls to get them legal right before game time and mount a less vehement defense of the man than some pats' fans.

[mister d]

Its so stupid that it has to be true...

Its not fair when comments like this are made after 5:30 EST.