Tax Dollars At Work

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Tax Dollars At Work

Post by Pruitt »

Hey - how about that government waste?

Something I like to wail about.

I'll start it off with the Pan Am Games, other than the Olympics, the Asian Games, the Commonwealth Games perhaps the biggest sports meet in the world... maybe.

City of Toronto has a number of booster type/morons who tried on a few occasions to get the Olympics. Failed miserably, so this is the compromise.

Officially, we are at $2.6 billion, but rest assured, the cost will be a lot higher than that. We get some pretty new sports facilities in the region (nothing major), some new apartments and nowhere near the promised road repairs.

But, we get to host this sport: http://www.cbc.ca/sports/panam-d3/figur ... =og.shares

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Yes, Roller Figure Skating!

Glad I paid my taxes this year...
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Re: Tax Dollars At Work

Post by degenerasian »

I don't know, I live in a city that can't host a single thing, not one soccer game, not one concert.

So I'm kind of envious that you have an event like the Pan Am Games.
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There are a few really irritating things at play here.

1) The budget - in typical governmental fashion, expenditures have not been released. Guarantee that this thing is going to go way over budget - and this in a province that is so far in debt, it may never get out. As of November, it was admitted that the cost of security for this event (originally budgeted at $120 million) was at $247 million. And that's 7 months before the games. There have been and continue to be significant delays in getting venues ready. Budget is set at $2.5 billion. Mark my words, it will be over $4 billion.

2) Hassle - organizers are urging Toronto businesses to stagger work hours. Residents are being urged to change their commuting patterns. One government Minister has said that it would be optimal if one in five Torontonians took the two weeks off. If this was a real event - meaning one that people give a crap about when it isn;t being rammed down their throats - than the upcoming hassles might be okay. Even the Women's World Cup which is being held across Canada (except Toronto because of the Pan am nonsense) would at least get people fired up.

3) Apathy - these games are being held in what is known as The "Greater Toronto Area" (or the GTA) Supposedly, some of the events in the outlying exurbs are generating buzz, but I wasted time online checking for tickets and I could get blocs of ten tickets for any event that is listed (save the men's basketball medal games).

It's a vanity project by our politicians plain and simple. Meanwhile, teachers all over the GTA are on strike, the city and province can't properly fund a subway expansion and one of our major arteries in the city is on the verge of collapse.

But two weeks of tae kwon do, softball and roller figure skating take precedence.

Humbug!
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Re: Tax Dollars At Work

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Pruitt wrote:There are a few really irritating things at play here.

1) The budget - in typical governmental fashion, expenditures have not been released. Guarantee that this thing is going to go way over budget - and this in a province that is so far in debt, it may never get out. As of November, it was admitted that the cost of security for this event (originally budgeted at $120 million) was at $247 million. And that's 7 months before the games. There have been and continue to be significant delays in getting venues ready. Budget is set at $2.5 billion. Mark my words, it will be over $4 billion.

2) Hassle - organizers are urging Toronto businesses to stagger work hours. Residents are being urged to change their commuting patterns. One government Minister has said that it would be optimal if one in five Torontonians took the two weeks off. If this was a real event - meaning one that people give a crap about when it isn;t being rammed down their throats - than the upcoming hassles might be okay. Even the Women's World Cup which is being held across Canada (except Toronto because of the Pan am nonsense) would at least get people fired up.

3) Apathy - these games are being held in what is known as The "Greater Toronto Area" (or the GTA) Supposedly, some of the events in the outlying exurbs are generating buzz, but I wasted time online checking for tickets and I could get blocs of ten tickets for any event that is listed (save the men's basketball medal games).

It's a vanity project by our politicians plain and simple. Meanwhile, teachers all over the GTA are on strike, the city and province can't properly fund a subway expansion and one of our major arteries in the city is on the verge of collapse.

But two weeks of tae kwon do, softball and roller figure skating take precedence.

Humbug!
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Re: Tax Dollars At Work

Post by degenerasian »

That just sounds ridiculous, Toronto screws up everything.

4 billion? Why so much? The 2011 Pan Am Games cost only $750 million in Guadalajara and that was three times the original budget. The 2014 Asian Games (which you mentioned as a big event) cost 1.5 billion.
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Re: Tax Dollars At Work

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Yeesh.

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Re: Tax Dollars At Work

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There has to be all kinds of graft going on. That's not limited to Toronto of course, but it's pretty endemic in any huge city like that. Asking politicians and union officials, etc. to not get their piece of the pie ends up with you buried in cement in the new badminton stadium.
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Re: Tax Dollars At Work

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degenerasian wrote:I don't know, I live in a city that can't host a single thing.
Didn't the Winter Olympics go off pretty well, when Calgary was the host? A thousand times better to host the Olympics once than any of the stupid third-tier Olympic-style events.
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Ryan wrote:Yeesh.

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Re: Tax Dollars At Work

Post by degenerasian »

sancarlos wrote:
degenerasian wrote:I don't know, I live in a city that can't host a single thing.
Didn't the Winter Olympics go off pretty well, when Calgary was the host? A thousand times better to host the Olympics once than any of the stupid third-tier Olympic-style events.

The 88 Winter Olympics weren''t so expensive. And we built everything from the SaddleDome to the Oval to Canada Olympic Park to the LRT.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_the_Olympic_Games" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Something fishy in Toronto Pruitt. I don't see how these games cost so much when they're using facilities they already have. They had to renovate the stadium in Hamilton but they're using places such as

BMO Field - Soccer
Exhibition Stadium - Rugby
Ricoh Arena - Gymnastics
Rexall Center - Tennis
SkyDome - Opening/Closing Ceremonies and Track
Hershey Arena (Mississauga) - Judo/Karate/Taekwondo etc...
GM Center (Oshawa) - Boxing

They don't have to build that much, what's 4 billion going into?
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Re: Tax Dollars At Work

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The Calgary Olympics were an anomaly in that things went smoothly and relatively cheaply.

But don't forget, that was before the Winter Olympics were quite so huge, and before the Olympics went from being a mega-event to the biggest shit show in the world.

And a word about graft - it's done a bit differently here. We are a bureaucratic people so the first wastage is in the overstaffing at the top. Then the construction unions and the contractors drag their heels during the building phase. Deadlines approach, overtime is added, unforeseen costs escalate (see Montreal 1976).

Meanwhile, the governments in charge keeps repeating the mantra that everything will be on time and on budget.

Difference here is that I don;t expect the government boobs in charge to be flying off to the Caymans with bags full of cash. Typically, they low ball the costs so it's an easy sell. The concrete shithole downtown (aka "Rogers Centre" or "SkyDome") was going to cost $150 million. For the longest time, we were told that costs would be under $200 million. A couple of years later we found out that it cost $600 million. It was most recently sold to Rogers ( who own the Blue Jays) for $25 million).

But I digress.

There are 7 new facilities being built. Improvements to all the other facilities as well.
The Toronto 2015 Organizing Committee (TO2015), along with all three levels of government, will spend about CA$672 million in upgrading and building new venues in the region.[16] An additional CA$760 million will be spent in operating expenses such as venue management and marketing
- Wikipedia

a new Athletes village that will become condos after the games built on expensive Toronto real estate ($710 million). Security ($250 million an rising), assorted other infrastructure improvements (some which won't be ready in time.) The mascot cost almost $400,000 to develop. Transporting the athletes and putting up officals is a cost that I can't find. Advertising - no dollar figures I can find, but $5 million was spent on producing and running single ad about 4 months ago...
TORONTO - A single slick advertisement for the TO2015 Pan Am and Para-Pan Am Games cost over $5 million to produce and air on television, in movie theatres and flights across the country, the Toronto Sun has learned.

And the government agency responsible for creating the ad won’t say how much more it plans to spend to continue to publicize the games.

Documents obtained through a Freedom of Information request, and provided to the Sun, show the Ontario government, through the Ontario Tourism Marketing Partnership Corp., spent over $1.5-million to create the so-called “Invade” campaign. It then spent $3.7 million to buy ad time on television, movie theatres, online and on Air Canada in-flight TV for a spot that runs just over a minute long.
This is indicative of the kind of "trust us" mentality at work here. I have seen this scenario play out many times here in Canada. A great way to spend our money so we can see some Bolivian guy win a medal in bowling.

Yes, bowling is an official sport, along with such fan favourites as racquetball, squash, archery and softball.

My blood is boiling...
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Re: Tax Dollars At Work

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Yeah I'm not sure what the Pan-Am games are doing in Toronto. I think that's an event worth having, and can work really well in a city of 500k - 1 million. Winnipeg hosted in '99 and I remember it being considered a success. If I asked the 5 people sitting around me, I bet 3 of the would say there's still a salmon-coloured volunteer jacket in their parents closet.

The problem is it's not the Olympics, so you can't put it in a city that thinks it's too cool for school for anything but best. You put it Saskatchewan or the Maritimes where people have a stronger connection to their community and latch on to anything that will make them seem more important than they are (even though it won't really).
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Re: Tax Dollars At Work

Post by rass »

To be fair, this commercial doesn't look cheap:

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Re: Tax Dollars At Work

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travzilla wrote:Yeah I'm not sure what the Pan-Am games are doing in Toronto. I think that's an event worth having, and can work really well in a city of 500k - 1 million. Winnipeg hosted in '99 and I remember it being considered a success. If I asked the 5 people sitting around me, I bet 3 of the would say there's still a salmon-coloured volunteer jacket in their parents closet.

The problem is it's not the Olympics, so you can't put it in a city that thinks it's too cool for school for anything but best. You put it Saskatchewan or the Maritimes where people have a stronger connection to their community and latch on to anything that will make them seem more important than they are (even though it won't really).
Exactly right. There's a reason why they were in Indianapolis the last time the USA hosted it.
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Re: Tax Dollars At Work

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I'm in the minority that I like goofy sports in the Pan Am Games because then it because the biggest event in that sport. The big sports like soccer, tennis and track, nobody good is coming so what's the point? You end up latching onto the Canadian in contention anyways. We've never heard of Olympic athletes either but then suddenly cheer for some Canadian high-jumper or race-walker.

The Calgary Olympics and Winnipeg Pan Am Games were successful because of volunteers. The condo project doesn't seem so bad, it'll pay for itself eventually. The Calgary Olympic village are now condos as well.

Asking public opinion for a mascot is pretty dumb, just create one for cheap.

Image

This didn't cost much.
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Nice mascots.

I wish I could share your optimism regarding the condo project. Come to Toronto, the city is drowning in new condos.

But we'll discuss this when the final cost is revealed. No doubt after an access to information request by a news organization.
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Re: Tax Dollars At Work

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degenerasian wrote:
Asking public opinion for a mascot is pretty dumb, just create one for cheap.

Image

This didn't cost much.

Those things totally fucked about 10 minutes after that picture was taken.
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Re: Tax Dollars At Work

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BSF21 wrote:
degenerasian wrote:
Asking public opinion for a mascot is pretty dumb, just create one for cheap.

Image

This didn't cost much.

Those things totally fucked about 10 minutes after that picture was taken.
I don't think it took that long. She's got her meat gazer look on.
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DSafetyGuy wrote:
BSF21 wrote:
degenerasian wrote:
Asking public opinion for a mascot is pretty dumb, just create one for cheap.

Image

This didn't cost much.

Those things totally fucked about 10 minutes after that picture was taken.
I don't think it took that long. She's got her meat gazer look on.
And he is well hung by the look on her face.
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More Pan Am Games problems.

There's a small airport on Toronto Island - which is basically downtown. For years, passengers have had to take a 45 second or so ferry ride to get to the airport from the "mainland." As part of the Pan Am Games planning - and at a cost of $85 million (split between the one airline that uses the airport and various levels of government), a pedestrian tunnel was being built to the airport. Construction began March 2012 and was to take "24 to 36 months."

And it won't be ready in time for the start of the games in July.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/tor ... sf_globefb

Why are we sceptical of budget and time estimates in Canada?
In the early spring of 2014, during a visit to The Globe and Mail’s editorial board, port authority leaders said it would be ready in the winter. In November, a spokesperson said the timeline for final completion would be known “in the coming weeks.” In December, a spokesperson suggested that the project could be done within months.
God knows how far over budget it has gone.

And the curious thing is that the island airport can only handle planes that have a range of 800 miles or so. And since the majority of the anticipated (yet probably invisible) visitors coming here for the games will be coming from the USA, Latin and South America, they will be using the big International Airport 20 miles outside the city.

So why did the government agree to pay for a large portion of a tunnel that in reality only will serve the interests of one airline? Well, that airline is a sponsor of the games?

Such classic sleaze.
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Re: Tax Dollars At Work

Post by degenerasian »

Im not surprised. Toronto can't even deal with black bears.
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degenerasian wrote:Im not surprised. Toronto can't even deal with black bears.
Image

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Pruitt, did you read this?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/s ... e24817480/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just bashes Edmonton and Women's World Cup opener should have been at BMO Field.
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Post by travzilla »

degenerasian wrote:Pruitt, did you read this?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/s ... e24817480/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just bashes Edmonton and Women's World Cup opener should have been at BMO Field.
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That article fails even at grade 10 position paper levels. It gets an F. How can he defend a position that the World Cup should be in glamourous stadium like the Olympic Stadium in Berlin (Jesse Owens blah blah) and end it with, it should be at BMO Field. What's BMO field? What event has it ever hosted.

Seriously, for the teachers on here. Grade that article.
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degenerasian wrote:That article fails even at grade 10 position paper levels. It gets an F. How can he defend a position that the World Cup should be in glamourous stadium like the Olympic Stadium in Berlin (Jesse Owens blah blah) and end it with, it should be at BMO Field. What's BMO field? What event has it ever hosted.

Seriously, for the teachers on here. Grade that article.
fuck off. it's june.
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Re: Tax Dollars At Work

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cerrano wrote:
degenerasian wrote:That article fails even at grade 10 position paper levels. It gets an F. How can he defend a position that the World Cup should be in glamourous stadium like the Olympic Stadium in Berlin (Jesse Owens blah blah) and end it with, it should be at BMO Field. What's BMO field? What event has it ever hosted.

Seriously, for the teachers on here. Grade that article.
fuck off. it's june.
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As for the article itself - and I often enjoy his columns - it does suck for one reason cited above - BMO field is a fine place to watch a soccer game, but in terms of historical significance, it makes High Point Solutions Stadium look like the Rose Bowl.

But he does have a point - it is kind of odd to be opening such a major tournament in the host country's sixth largest city.

As a Torontonian, this chunk here sums up my feelings.
Being left out is one thing. But for all its deeds, good and otherwise, Toronto is to be punished with the Pan American Games. What are they? Who’s in them? Why are they here? Good questions. Since no one plans to watch the thing, they’re good questions that will never be answered.

Currently in Toronto, the Pan Ams mean one thing – a commuting apocalypse. City officials are asking people to stay off the roads for a sizable chunk of July. Another great idea
I have no doubt that every Canada game will be full of raucous (for Canada) fans. But there will be many empty seats at the other games. And part of the reason why it's ridiculous to not have games in Toronto which is as multi ethnic city as there is anywhere in the world. I have been at games here where there were thousands of Uruguayans, St. Lucians etc. Japan? Mexico? Nigeria? Thailand? France? Easy sell out here.

Stupid Pan Am games.
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Re: Tax Dollars At Work

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One million (out of a total of 1.4 million) Pan Am Games tickets unsold.

http://panam.cbc.ca/news/article/articl ... lable.html
Organizers say this doesn't necessarily reflect lack of interest
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Re: Tax Dollars At Work

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I don't really think 1.0 out of 1.4 million tickets pre-sold is really all that bad. Especially considering that a lot of events are kinda stupid stuff like fencing and equestrian and whatnot.
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it's 1 million unsold.

Torontonians should just go. They're never going to get the Olympics so if there something a person has always wanted to see live, just go. I've never seen Swimming, I'd could easily watch an evening session.

But that's me, I like a lot of goofy sports.
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Re: Tax Dollars At Work

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degenerasian wrote:it's 1 million unsold.

Torontonians should just go. They're never going to get the Olympics so if there something a person has always wanted to see live, just go. I've never seen Swimming, I'd could easily watch an evening session.

But that's me, I like a lot of goofy sports.
Oh. Well that's a different story altogether. (And swimming is hardly a goofy sports on par with like rythmic gymnastics and that stuff.)
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degenerasian wrote:it's 1 million unsold.

Torontonians should just go.
Part of the problem is that we have been told for months now to stay off the roads during the games. Predictions of traffic chaos are nearing apocalyptic levels... and many of the venues are nowhere near subway stations. The idea of riding a crowded bus for over an hour each way in the middle of traffic jams just to watch athletes compete in events that people don't follow is - not surprisingly - not proving to be very appealing.
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Re: Tax Dollars At Work

Post by degenerasian »

That's awful, they've had this bid for 6 years, how did they not figure out the roads.

This would be the same problem with Olympics too though, people would not ride the bus an hour to watch events they know nothing about. Most host cities have Olympic blocks of venues, not events in Missisauga.

Other than Track, Swimming and Gymnastics, people can't distinguish Olympic athletes either. People saying they would watch Olympic fencing but not Pan Am fencing are pretty silly.
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Re: Tax Dollars At Work

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Pan Am games cancelled 60% of the hotel rooms they had booked in the city.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/p ... -1.3125501

Man, you didn't have to be Nostradamus to see this coming.
Mark Ive, the general manager of the Renaissance Toronto Downtown Hotel, says he was counting on a large block of bookings set aside by the Pam Am organizing committee.

But the committee cancelled 60 per cent of those rooms earlier this year, he said.

"This was very unusual for a booker to reduce their block by so much," he said. "So frankly we were caught off guard."

Ive said his budget is off by about $600,000 and believes the hotel would have done better in July without the Games, which run from July 10 to 26.

Other hotels report a similar experience with their Pan Am contracts.

Some have even dropped the Pan Am bookings altogether because they weren't filling up.

Terry Mundell, president of the Greater Toronto Hotel Association, said filling blocks of rooms abandoned by organizers is a challenge with only three weeks to go before the Games.
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Re: Tax Dollars At Work

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Pruitt wrote:Pan Am games cancelled 60% of the hotel rooms they had booked in the city.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/p ... -1.3125501

Man, you didn't have to be Nostradamus to see this coming.
Mark Ive, the general manager of the Renaissance Toronto Downtown Hotel, says he was counting on a large block of bookings set aside by the Pam Am organizing committee.

But the committee cancelled 60 per cent of those rooms earlier this year, he said.

"This was very unusual for a booker to reduce their block by so much," he said. "So frankly we were caught off guard."

Ive said his budget is off by about $600,000 and believes the hotel would have done better in July without the Games, which run from July 10 to 26.

Other hotels report a similar experience with their Pan Am contracts.

Some have even dropped the Pan Am bookings altogether because they weren't filling up.

Terry Mundell, president of the Greater Toronto Hotel Association, said filling blocks of rooms abandoned by organizers is a challenge with only three weeks to go before the Games.
I think the GM boned himself. The standard group booking hotel contract includes a guaranteed revenue clause, usually around 80% of the expected group total bill (sometimes lower).

I would expect that waiving that clause would be a decision-making process starting at the GM level, or at least requiring him to sign off on it.
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Brontoburglar
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Re: Tax Dollars At Work

Post by Brontoburglar »

DSafetyGuy wrote:
Pruitt wrote:Pan Am games cancelled 60% of the hotel rooms they had booked in the city.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/p ... -1.3125501

Man, you didn't have to be Nostradamus to see this coming.
Mark Ive, the general manager of the Renaissance Toronto Downtown Hotel, says he was counting on a large block of bookings set aside by the Pam Am organizing committee.

But the committee cancelled 60 per cent of those rooms earlier this year, he said.

"This was very unusual for a booker to reduce their block by so much," he said. "So frankly we were caught off guard."

Ive said his budget is off by about $600,000 and believes the hotel would have done better in July without the Games, which run from July 10 to 26.

Other hotels report a similar experience with their Pan Am contracts.

Some have even dropped the Pan Am bookings altogether because they weren't filling up.

Terry Mundell, president of the Greater Toronto Hotel Association, said filling blocks of rooms abandoned by organizers is a challenge with only three weeks to go before the Games.
I think the GM boned himself. The standard group booking hotel contract includes a guaranteed revenue clause, usually around 80% of the expected group total bill (sometimes lower).

I would expect that waiving that clause would be a decision-making process starting at the GM level, or at least requiring him to sign off on it.
My hotel contracts have a 90-day period that goes like this:

90 to 30 days in advance = 65%

29 days or less in advance of event =80%

So I'm guessing that if they canceled before, say, 90 days they aren't on the hook.
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Re: Tax Dollars At Work

Post by Pruitt »

Ahhh, so the writer didn't tell the full story - imagine that...

I should probably give it a rest, but man, I hate the amount of waste that goes in to these idiotic events.

Here's a photo from the town of Milton - about 30 miles west of the Toronto city limits. They built a velodrome there for the games.

Anyway, the Pan Am Torch went through there yesterday. Dozens of folks lined the streets. But this is what kills me - look at the police presence. Some gym teacher running down the street of a small town, and she is surrounded by cops (at time and a half pay no doubt) in order to protect her from the dangerous 4 year old terrorists that Southern Ontario is famous for.

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Re: Tax Dollars At Work

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Brontoburglar wrote:
DSafetyGuy wrote:I think the GM boned himself. The standard group booking hotel contract includes a guaranteed revenue clause, usually around 80% of the expected group total bill (sometimes lower).

I would expect that waiving that clause would be a decision-making process starting at the GM level, or at least requiring him to sign off on it.
My hotel contracts have a 90-day period that goes like this:

90 to 30 days in advance = 65%

29 days or less in advance of event =80%

So I'm guessing that if they canceled before, say, 90 days they aren't on the hook.
Just out of curiosity, how big are those groups (room nights, number of guests)? The ones I work on are usually 700+ room nights and 100+ guests.
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Re: Tax Dollars At Work

Post by Brontoburglar »

DSafetyGuy wrote:
Brontoburglar wrote:
DSafetyGuy wrote:I think the GM boned himself. The standard group booking hotel contract includes a guaranteed revenue clause, usually around 80% of the expected group total bill (sometimes lower).

I would expect that waiving that clause would be a decision-making process starting at the GM level, or at least requiring him to sign off on it.
My hotel contracts have a 90-day period that goes like this:

90 to 30 days in advance = 65%

29 days or less in advance of event =80%

So I'm guessing that if they canceled before, say, 90 days they aren't on the hook.
Just out of curiosity, how big are those groups (room nights, number of guests)? The ones I work on are usually 700+ room nights and 100+ guests.
They ain't that, though we're about at 85 rooms for 3 or 4 nights twice a year.

So what's the time period on yours?
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Re: Tax Dollars At Work

Post by DSafetyGuy »

Brontoburglar wrote:
DSafetyGuy wrote:
Brontoburglar wrote:
DSafetyGuy wrote:I think the GM boned himself. The standard group booking hotel contract includes a guaranteed revenue clause, usually around 80% of the expected group total bill (sometimes lower).

I would expect that waiving that clause would be a decision-making process starting at the GM level, or at least requiring him to sign off on it.
My hotel contracts have a 90-day period that goes like this:

90 to 30 days in advance = 65%

29 days or less in advance of event =80%

So I'm guessing that if they canceled before, say, 90 days they aren't on the hook.
Just out of curiosity, how big are those groups (room nights, number of guests)? The ones I work on are usually 700+ room nights and 100+ guests.
They ain't that, though we're about at 85 rooms for 3 or 4 nights twice a year.

So what's the time period on yours?
Usually, when contract is signed for us, it is fully executed months in advance (most frequently three, but sometimes not - we've done one two days before first guest shows up in one case). I would have to look at some old ones to see if anything different, mostly because if there is a date to back out, I ignore it because if I'm working, it's happening.

Anyway, I would guess that since our contracts are so much bigger (like the Pan Am ones), the hotel is counting on that revenue and can't as easily replace it, as compared to a smaller group like yours. Thus, my "the GN boned it" stance.
“All I'm sayin' is, he comes near me, I'll put him in the wall.”
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