Do We Have a Thread About the Migrant Crisis in Europe?

Steve of phpBB · Post by **Steve of phpBB** » Wed Sep 09, 2015 3:11 pm

Couldn't find a thread. What a mess. It seems like every day the Hungarian authorities do something to eliminate whatever ethnic pride I built up on my visit there last month.

The irony of Hungary's closing its borders and stopping the refugees is that in 1989, it was Hungary who punched the fatal hole in the Iron Curtain by opening its borders to Austria, thus allowing thousands of East Germans to migrate to the West and leading the East German government to tear down that wall. (Or maybe it isn't irony, but whatever.)

wlu_lax6 · Post by **wlu_lax6** » Wed Sep 09, 2015 3:16 pm

Well Porto and St. Pauli are supporting the migrants
http://www.espnfc.us/german-bundesliga/ ... d-migrants" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

howard · Post by **howard** » Wed Sep 09, 2015 4:56 pm

If our country would stop bombing the shit out of other countries, this shit won't happen. And fucking Hollande and Cameron want to bomb Syria some more as a direct response to this refugee crisis. It goes without saying Obama will do the same.

You couldn't make this crap up. Death and destruction.

Steve of phpBB · Post by **Steve of phpBB** » Wed Sep 09, 2015 5:57 pm

howard wrote:If our country would stop bombing the shit out of other countries, this shit won't happen. And fucking Hollande and Cameron want to bomb Syria some more as a direct response to this refugee crisis. It goes without saying Obama will do the same.

You couldn't make this crap up. Death and destruction.

I dunno. I have confidence that especially in the Middle East, the people there are capable of creating horrific situations without our help.

In Iraq we got so involved we took over the entire country. In Libya we got semi-involved. In Syria, for the first several years, we did not get deeply involved at all. And every one of those countries ended up a complete mess.

howard · Post by **howard** » Wed Sep 09, 2015 6:00 pm

We were and are very very deeply involved in all three of those countries.

eta: don't believe me? take it from the source. Funny stuff:

Pruitt · Post by **Pruitt** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 8:41 am

We are lucky that there is quite a large body of water separating us from these refugees.

Whatever moves we put in place, our countries have the ability to screen the refugees. In a small way, I do sympathize with the governments of countries like Hungary, Greece and Serbia (probably a line that no Jew has ever written before).

Suddenly, tens of thousands of people swarm into the country. Over there, it's not a policy decision that can be debated and voted on - these poor people are suddenly all over the place. No wonder they are not prepared to deal with them.

It gives me a feeling that the next rounds of elections in Europe (and especially in central and eastern Europe) will see the right wingers really making gains.

Ultimately though, events like this really expose human nature. God bless the Germans who welcomed the migrants who finally made it into their country.

A_B · Post by **A_B** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 8:52 am

Pruitt wrote:We are lucky that there is quite a large body of water separating us from these refugees.

So said the Native Americans.

HaulCitgo · Post by **HaulCitgo** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:54 am

sounds stupid and i should probably just read an article, but why is it that these people are traveling thousands (presumably) of miles to hungary and germany. just checking a map, there are tons of closer places to go

Joe K · Post by **Joe K** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:10 am

HaulCitgo wrote:sounds stupid and i should probably just read an article, but why is it that these people are traveling thousands (presumably) of miles to hungary and germany. just checking a map, there are tons of closer places to go

The short answer is that they think that their families can build a better life in Germany than in those closer places. Germany in particular has also been particularly receptive to the idea of welcoming refugees. Other countries (e.g., much of Eastern Europe) have been much more distrustful.

Moreta · Post by **Moreta** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 11:47 am

They can't just stop in one of the closer countries for a while and then move on to a country like Germany that is more welcoming either. The agreement they are bound to (the Dublin Convention) requires that an asylum seeker is bound to the first country in which they seek asylum. Once they register in, for example, Greece, they cannot move on to another country better able to help them establish themselves financially.

So, the refugees push to get to a country where they will be better supported before registering as asylum seekers.

Steve of phpBB · Post by **Steve of phpBB** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 11:53 am

Pruitt wrote:We are lucky that there is quite a large body of water separating us from these refugees.

Whatever moves we put in place, our countries have the ability to screen the refugees. In a small way, I do sympathize with the governments of countries like Hungary, Greece and Serbia (probably a line that no Jew has ever written before).

Suddenly, tens of thousands of people swarm into the country. Over there, it's not a policy decision that can be debated and voted on - these poor people are suddenly all over the place. No wonder they are not prepared to deal with them.

It gives me a feeling that the next rounds of elections in Europe (and especially in central and eastern Europe) will see the right wingers really making gains.

Ultimately though, events like this really expose human nature. God bless the Germans who welcomed the migrants who finally made it into their country.

I'm fully sympathetic to the plight of the small countries, even Hungary. Hungary has only ten million people, so a bunch of Middle Easterners moving in could really be destabilizing. I also do believe there is a very legitimate concern that if the migrants don't get assimilated or integrated into the population, they and their kids will be recruitment targets for terrorist groups.

They are also concerned about the lack of growth of the "native" population. Two different people, when they found out my grandfather was from Budapest, asked me if we would consider moving there.

But Hungary is going way beyond trying to protect itself from the downsides of migration. They are actively preventing migrants from going through Hungary to other countries, because their leader wants to "keep Europe Christian." That is not excusable to me. Germany has 80 million people and a thriving economy, and if Germany is willing to take on the refugees, it isn't right for Hungary to keep the refugees detained at train stations and "camps".

(Then again, I owe my existence to Hungarian bigotry, so maybe I shouldn't talk.)

That French Guy · Post by **That French Guy** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:42 pm

Steve of phpBB wrote:Germany has 80 million people and a thriving economy, and if Germany is willing to take on the refugees, it isn't right for Hungary to keep the refugees detained at train stations and "camps".

(Then again, I owe my existence to Hungarian bigotry, so maybe I shouldn't talk.)

Germany also has a population which is aging quite fast due to a weak natality rate, which is really worrying for their pension system, so it s not like it s pure altruism, they need new young people. (Which doesnt excuse Hungary policies, dont get me wrong)

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 2:13 pm

Steve of phpBB wrote: They are actively preventing migrants from going through Hungary to other countries, because their leader wants to "keep Europe Christian." That is not excusable to me.

Why are you persecuting Christians?

I heard a news piece touching on TFG's post. Germany is facing a major problem due to a lack of workforce.

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 3:28 pm

I really feel like I should be all up in this thread with anecdotes and important info considering where I live, but I'm being ignorant with the rapidly approaching timeframe of when I'm leaving.

I can tell you that Germans are completely opposite of Americans when it comes to people from other countries and their welcoming here. You can tell that immediately when you see Turkish döner places everywhere and they are celebrated as if Germans invented it.

degenerasian · Post by **degenerasian** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 3:36 pm

Seems Canada and US are less welcoming of refugees than say 30 years ago. Is there a reason for that or am I wrong?

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 3:44 pm

Because people with Donald Trump's attitude are everywhere and really vocal with it?

Post by **Shirley** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 5:33 pm

Johnnie wrote:I really feel like I should be all up in this thread with anecdotes and important info considering where I live, but I'm being ignorant with the rapidly approaching timeframe of when I'm leaving.

I can tell you that Germans are completely opposite of Americans when it comes to people from other countries and their welcoming here. You can tell that immediately when you see Turkish döner places everywhere and they are celebrated as if Germans invented it.

I guess it depends on where you live. You can't throw a rock around here without hitting an immigrant or "ethnic" restaurant. Granted, these immigrants are highly-paid tech workers.

sancarlos · Post by **sancarlos** » Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:34 pm

Shirley wrote:
I guess it depends on where you live. You can't throw a rock around here without hitting an immigrant or "ethnic" restaurant. Granted, these immigrants are highly-paid tech workers.

Same here.

Steve of phpBB · Post by **Steve of phpBB** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 10:16 am

The Sybian wrote:
Steve of phpBB wrote: They are actively preventing migrants from going through Hungary to other countries, because their leader wants to "keep Europe Christian." That is not excusable to me.
Why are you persecuting Christians?

I heard a news piece touching on TFG's post. Germany is facing a major problem due to a lack of workforce.

I have no doubt that Germany has all kinds of ulterior motives - who doesn't - but I am curious about one thing. If Germany needs a workforce, while other EU countries (like Greece) have high unemployment, wouldn't you expect Germany's workforce needs would be filled by Greeks and others from the EU? Because those are all EU members, can't they work in Germany without visas and permits?

Gunpowder · Post by **Gunpowder** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 10:29 am

Didn't see a single migrant in Budapest. They are keeping it well hidden from the tourist eye.

Copenhagen had a surprisingly large middle eastern contingent. I wouldn't be surprised if a bunch of them tried to get to Denmark.

Steve of phpBB · Post by **Steve of phpBB** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:53 pm

Interesting summary article here.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015 ... .html?_r=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Steve of phpBB · Post by **Steve of phpBB** » Tue Oct 20, 2015 2:52 pm

Still marching ... now Slovenia gets its chance to seal its borders and keep people out. But in the meantime, they are marching them through:

Pruitt · Post by **Pruitt** » Fri Jan 08, 2016 8:10 am

Seems like a lot of the attackers in Cologne on New Year's Eve may have been new arrivals.

http://www.dw.com/en/reports-asylum-see ... a-18966406

The first internal police report on the event - a so-called "wichtige Ereignis Meldung" ("important event announcement") - spoke of a crowd mainly of "North African and Arab" origin. According to the Kölner Stadt-anzeiger, the officer leading the team at the station wanted the report to include mention of the Syrians and asylum seekers, but the senior officer writing the "WE-Meldung" decided not to, saying it would be "politically awkward."

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Fri Jan 08, 2016 8:37 am

Yea, that's pretty shocking. I haven't read into anything more, but I know Merkel is vocally supportive of immigrants. Hence the "politically awkward" note in the article.

Pruitt · Post by **Pruitt** » Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:48 am

I heard that Germany is getting over 3,000 arrivals EACH DAY! That's a rate of over a million a year.

howard · Post by **howard** » Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:18 am

Germany registered just under one million in calendar year 2015.

eta: 965,000 in first 11 months of 2015

DC47 · Post by **DC47** » Sat Jan 09, 2016 2:34 am

Immigration poses problems for recipient countries up front. Sometimes big ones, as is now the case in parts of Europe and in the mind of Donald Trump.

But wealthy developed countries with low birth rates are staring at a tremendous demographic problem as their ratio of retirees to workers inexorably climbs. Nations like Japan that find it hard to tolerate non-natives are in trouble, with much more to come. Those like the USA and Germany that are relatively open to immigration -- typically of fairly young people who are likely to have higher birth rates -- have some longer-term economic advantages stemming from an improved demographic profile.

Russia is a curious case. They are not exactly a wealthy developed country like Japan, USA, France, Germany, and Italy. But they too have a well-below replacement-level birth rate. Unless they somehow turn this around, or they get a strong immigrant stream (not a popular destination right now it seems), then they will add a nasty demography-driven economic factor to the many other wicked domestic problems that they are cooking up. Perhaps Putin plans to re-settle the million ISIS prisoners-of-war that he will be holding after his speedy victory in Syria to the fertile crescent of Siberia.

degenerasian · Post by **degenerasian** » Sat Jan 09, 2016 11:31 am

The Japanese might die off (or have to invade another country) within 100 years if they don't accept immigration. Currently people over 65 make up a quarter of the population. By 2050 it will be nearly half.

Pruitt · Post by **Pruitt** » Sat Jan 09, 2016 11:37 am

Merkel Proposing Tightening Migrant Laws

Cologne Chief of Police fired - he withheld information on the case from the state government. appearances are that he was hiding the fact that 60% of the men they arrested were refugee claimants.

Also, sounds like his force was late to the party.

howard · Post by **howard** » Sat Jan 09, 2016 11:42 am

I think demographics are the least of Russia's problems. I think their native birth rate will quickly ramp up as their economy improves*.

After the west destroyed Ukraine, that nation has and will continue to provide plenty of young immigrants. As Poland is squeezed by EU banking policies and has decided to blow itself up, clamping down on democracy, another source of young bodies.

I bet Russia will have healthy population growth over the next 20-30 years. Not as dramatic as the post WW2 period, but sufficient to support the elderly and hopefully an improving live expectancy, which is currently much lower than the west.

eta: CIA factbook shows USA 79.86; Russia 70.47.

*Their economy was strip mined during the Yeltsin years; Putin gradually restructured things and there was steady improvement until this sanctions bullshit a year and a half ago. Putin took this crisis as an opportunity to restructure things further to rely less on the west, more on China, and they are poised for dramatic economic growth over the next decade.

howard · Post by **howard** » Sat Jan 09, 2016 11:46 am

Pruitt wrote:Cologne Chief of Police fired - he withheld information on the case from the state government. appearances are that he was hiding the fact that 60% of the men they arrested were refugee claimants.

Also, sounds like his force was late to the party.

Between experience in this area, and general German efficiency, you'd think they would have the internal policing thing down.

Post by **Shirley** » Sat Jan 09, 2016 1:14 pm

It's amazing to me that this large group of men felt comfortable enough to do this. They are new the country, they know their presence is controversial, they stand out physically and culturally, and they don't speak the language (at least not well). And yet they decided to get together for a massive riot/assault in the city square? I'd have understood if it were a protest of sorts, but this just sounds like hooliganism.

What gives?

And what is it with middle eastern men and massive group assaults of women in public places? This story sounds a lot like what happened in Egypt a couple of years ago. I guess this is a result of deep-seated cultural oppression of women?

degenerasian · Post by **degenerasian** » Sat Jan 09, 2016 2:04 pm

Shirley wrote:It's amazing to me that this large group of men felt comfortable enough to do this. They are new the country, they know their presence is controversial, they stand out physically and culturally, and they don't speak the language (at least not well). And yet they decided to get together for a massive riot/assault in the city square? I'd have understood if it were a protest of sorts, but this just sounds like hooliganism.

What gives?

And what is it with middle eastern men and massive group assaults of women in public places? This story sounds a lot like what happened in Egypt a couple of years ago. I guess this is a result of deep-seated cultural oppression of women?

Unfortunately it's the culture over there. It's a huge problem in India as well. Women will get groped everywhere if they are alone or even with other girls. Even if they are with their boyfriends it's 50/50. Only if they are with their husband then guys are respectful of the husband, the woman is still garbage.

govmentchedda · Post by **govmentchedda** » Sun Jan 10, 2016 8:35 am

Shirley wrote:It's amazing to me that this large group of men felt comfortable enough to do this. They are new the country, they know their presence is controversial, they stand out physically and culturally, and they don't speak the language (at least not well). And yet they decided to get together for a massive riot/assault in the city square? I'd have understood if it were a protest of sorts, but this just sounds like hooliganism.

What gives?

And what is it with middle eastern men and massive group assaults of women in public places? This story sounds a lot like what happened in Egypt a couple of years ago. I guess this is a result of deep-seated cultural oppression of women?

Something about this story seems fishy to me.

Pruitt · Post by **Pruitt** » Sun Jan 10, 2016 4:29 pm

Happened to a lesser extent in Finland as well.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... eport.html

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Sun Jan 10, 2016 11:16 pm

Pruitt wrote:Happened to a lesser extent in Finland as well.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... eport.html

Sounds like the NYC Puerto Rican Day is going global.

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Mon Jan 11, 2016 6:06 am

I'm thinking back to my time in Iraq and the predeployment training before it.

Our Arabic instructor was a female that had left Iraq. Her father was a high ranking general. Her husband was an American, I believe, and she had two kids. She would discuss how life at about age 13/14 for boys and girls drastically shift. When kids are young they are allowed to play and not have to worry about the disgusting masculine dominated society. Then they reach an age where gender roles and prohibitions happen. It is at this point that women realize they are subservient to men. Men are then treated as the more dominant half of the species. What compounds this is religion. Especially state-sponsored religion. The gender roles there are fortified without any sort of equality effort. Women are the lesser half.

(Shit, it even gets into naming rights. When a woman has a son, she still has a name, but will be referred to as "Om [son's name]" "Om" is Arabic for "mother of." For reference, "abu" is "father of" and "bin" is "son of." There is one for "daughter of," "bint," but that isn't even used. Even language is against women in that society.)

So, my class keeps asking questions to our instructor. We want to know why. Many in my class are female so they are worried that going into a society that's male dominated will make them targets. The men just cannot comprehend how she's seemingly cool with this. She brings up her father a few more times. And then the inevitable question happens:

"If your father called you right now and said to drop everything. Your kids, your husband, your life in America...would you?"

She says yes.

We're astonished. All of us were speechless. We all look at her completely blindsided. It was at this point where everyone realized something the Bush Administration couldn't 'you're not winning heart and minds of people like this.' And then the follow up:

"Why? How could you?"

She tears up a bit and shrugs. Her face says more than words could. It's ingrained and she can't explain it. Just because.

That sequence somewhat prepared me for anything in Iraq. Once I started working with the Iraqi Air Force things just seemed off. These dudes were in their 30s and 40s, but had the minds of children in terms of sex. You routinely get asked "Are you married? Do you have a girlfriend? Do you believe in God..." To which we had to be prepared to answer.

When I said I wasn't married or had a girlfriend, it immediately becomes this junior high level discourse of "Oh, do you like men? HAHAHAHA. But American women are easy to have sex with. Why do you not have a wife to have sex with all the time? So you must like men."

Literally.

There was even a running inside joke that one guy in particular always wanted to talk about "girls in bikinis." His voice would get all high and he'd mock grab his nipples and say "You're from America...where girls are in bikinis!" It was crazy.

And even when you're married, like a friend of mine was, he would get this in response "Oh, you have a wife! Do you often have sex with her and fuck her all the time? Is she a slut?"

Like, holy fuck, right?

Soooo....when I said that I was shocked earlier, it was due to how brazen so many foreigners were to pull that off. Germany, along with Korea are the safest places I've ever been to. So for that to happen is kinda weird. But when I really thought about it, Muslim men think all western women are whores who are asking for it by not being covered up from head to toe. So, on a smaller scale, this level of interaction isn't all that surprising after all.

Pruitt · Post by **Pruitt** » Mon Jan 11, 2016 6:56 am

Crazy story.

It really is weird that there's a huge swath of the world that is still in the 17th century.

Post by **Shirley** » Mon Jan 11, 2016 12:43 pm

Yeah, so this must just be a common aspect of big celebrations, or maybe just New Years celebrations in that region. That makes a lot more sense than these guys all planning this ahead of time. I don't know about you, but as a foreigner, I'd be pretty wary of pissing off German authorities.

I bet a lot of these guys are absolutely amazed that anyone thinks they did anything wrong.

That French Guy · Post by **That French Guy** » Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:02 pm

Shirley wrote:they don't speak the language (at least not well).

That s why they had a cheat sheet with sexist insults translated into German.