The Swamp

Anytime the person has a weapon it's going to be hard for a cop not to draw their gun. That's the one thing in training they never seem to forget, and honestly they probably weren't wrong to do so.

I think the main problem is so much of these situations come down to shoot/don't shoot as the only two options.

I've seen a lot about "well he saved that girl's life". No one seems to reach the conclusion that there was a possibility to save two lives. He chose which one was important based on 10 seconds of information.

I really don't know the answers here. If that's my wife that girl has pinned with a knife I'm probably yelling to shoot her before she kills her,

I just don't know. I'm tired of reading the tragedy du jour. I'm tired of people not looking at any situation with nuance. I don't care if someone was in the wrong, we treat death by police so flippantly as if we don't have a justice system for this.

I'm tired of people seeing white cop kills black person and jumping on it regardless. I'm tired of bootlickers just "well you can't know and would have done the same and the cops are always the good guys". I'm tired of "every cop is a racist waiting to kill someone".

I'm just tired y'all.

It's such a split second decision. As he ran towards her, he yelled for her to drop the knife. Does she understand? Does she compute? Is she mentally ill? We don't know. But she's got another girl pinned against the car, and the original call for police to arrive was because someone got stabbed, right? What information is he getting from dispatch? He is getting information and getting prepared in his head while driving there.

So could the police have de-escalated? Could he have charged the girl with the knife, risking more stabs to both the pinned girl and himself? Is it even fair to analyze like this?

Just saw the video. And I really don't think the officer did anything unreasonable (though he did have to be pretty accurate). Up to now I had just read about it.

But WTF with the person kicking the woman who appears to be pregnant? There's a lot going on here.

Its not a perfect comp, they rarely are, but the blanket "if these were two white girls in Princeton, NJ, no cop is shooting a kid" logic still stands. They, as a whole, are too willing to solve problems with gunfire knowing the aftermath so rarely affects them, atleast legally.

mister d wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:33 am Its not a perfect comp, they rarely are, but the blanket "if these were two white girls in Princeton, NJ, no cop is shooting a kid" logic still stands. They, as a whole, are too willing to solve problems with gunfire knowing the aftermath so rarely affects them, atleast legally.

Well, in Princeton, cops are trained to draw their copy of Atlas Shrugged and initiate a discussion on the merits of Objectivism.

mister d wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:33 am Its not a perfect comp, they rarely are, but the blanket "if these were two white girls in Princeton, NJ, no cop is shooting a kid" logic still stands. They, as a whole, are too willing to solve problems with gunfire knowing the aftermath so rarely affects them, atleast legally.

I think a lot of this comes down to a shocking lack of training in handling these situations. I haven't seen the video, so I won't comment, but from what I hear it's 10 seconds of video, and I'd wager if we had another camera with 5 minutes of video, we'd have a different view of the 10 second video.

I saw JHip's post on Facebook and commentary, and I had to restrain myself from yelling at everyone in that thread. I think JHip was was too flippant in blaming the cop making the victim a martyr, and the main antagonist was too assured in defending the cop, but I really wanted to go off on the woman who said the cop should have shot her in the leg. Imagine training cops to shoot for the legs? Go for the narrowest, most mobile target out there, especially when there are innocent bystanders around! LEOs are all taught to shoot for center mass. It's the biggest, most stabile target, and you are going to stop the suspect if you hit them. Shooting should ALWAYS be the last resort, but if you have to shoot, you need to stop the suspect quickly.

The Sybian wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:47 am

mister d wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:33 am Its not a perfect comp, they rarely are, but the blanket "if these were two white girls in Princeton, NJ, no cop is shooting a kid" logic still stands. They, as a whole, are too willing to solve problems with gunfire knowing the aftermath so rarely affects them, atleast legally.

I think a lot of this comes down to a shocking lack of training in handling these situations. I haven't seen the video, so I won't comment, but from what I hear it's 10 seconds of video, and I'd wager if we had another camera with 5 minutes of video, we'd have a different view of the 10 second video.

I saw JHip's post on Facebook and commentary, and I had to restrain myself from yelling at everyone in that thread. I think JHip was was too flippant in blaming the cop making the victim a martyr, and the main antagonist was too assured in defending the cop, but I really wanted to go off on the woman who said the cop should have shot her in the leg. Imagine training cops to shoot for the legs? Go for the narrowest, most mobile target out there, especially when there are innocent bystanders around! LEOs are all taught to shoot for center mass. It's the biggest, most stabile target, and you are going to stop the suspect if you hit them. Shooting should ALWAYS be the last resort, but if you have to shoot, you need to stop the suspect quickly.

Same on the stuff with JHip. Couple people who are just straight up bootlickers and a couple people with good intentions but no idea how real life works.

There is no such thing as shoot to wound. It's bad practice and not taught anywhere. If you're shooting, you're shooting to down/kill. That's why I hate the "well why did the officer need to fire 13 rounds?" -- Go to the range sometime and shoot at something 20 feet away in a calm quiet situation and then tell me why.

However to jump into this where there seemed to be little to no de-escalation attempted, it was just "look, a threat, gun, bang".

It is unfair to analyze these ex post facto. I admit that. But this idea that the cop is a hero because he executed "a bad guy" is bullshit too. Imagine the beautiful headline if it didn't go this way. "Officer saves woman attacked with knife. Subdues attacker with only minor injuries to all." Why isn't that the headline we celebrate and strive for?

BSF21 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:56 am
It is unfair to analyze these ex post facto. I admit that. But this idea that the cop is a hero because he executed "a bad guy" is bullshit too. Imagine the beautiful headline if it didn't go this way. "Officer saves woman attacked with knife. Subdues attacker with only minor injuries to all." Why isn't that the headline we celebrate and strive for?

I'm guessing that happens somewhere in the US almost every day, but never gets a headline. A big problem is the media sensationalizing every story for clicks, ratings, whatever and never actually having the full story or all the facts.

Would be a lot easier if "no body cam or no gun drawn on the other side" automatically ended a cop's career. Leave the burden of proof on them.

The biggest swing that (hopefully) happens in our lifetime is a) sending out officers fully trained on handling people that are mentally impaired, b) sending out unarmed professionals trained in this area and/or c) teaming up armed officers and unarmed trained professionals to handle these situations.

There's a very good documentary out there with two officers that were re-trained and are sent out to deal with these situations and it's a true game changer.

Nonlinear FC wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:21 am The biggest swing that (hopefully) happens in our lifetime is a) sending out officers fully trained on handling people that are mentally impaired, b) sending out unarmed professionals trained in this area and/or c) teaming up armed officers and unarmed trained professionals to handle these situations.

There's a very good documentary out there with two officers that were re-trained and are sent out to deal with these situations and it's a true game changer.

Yes. Hopefully with everything that happened, investigations into shootings will be more open and transparent, I think that's a major step that has to happen.

I think there is a discussion to have because in the last few days there's been points made that cops should be willing to jeopardize themselves rushing people with knives, and I think guns, or rushing into blind situation. While I agree that with police officers they have to be willing to take heroic action, just like fire fighters rushing into fires. I don't know if that should be standing procedure though. making it standard procedure to rush into potentially fatal situations in that manner is going to lead to a lot of trauma and tragedy.

I agree that any comprehensive reform the police movement has to include increased mental health and trauma resources for police officers, as well as the usual fair in terms of better recruiting and training.

Firefighters rush into burning buildings, sacrificing their own safety for the public. Cops often fire at the first sign of threat to themselves, putting their own safety above the public.

Nonlinear FC wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:21 am The biggest swing that (hopefully) happens in our lifetime is a) sending out officers fully trained on handling people that are mentally impaired, b) sending out unarmed professionals trained in this area and/or c) teaming up armed officers and unarmed trained professionals to handle these situations.

There's a very good documentary out there with two officers that were re-trained and are sent out to deal with these situations and it's a true game changer.

Another part of this is the type of people that tend to gravitate towards policing are often ex-military. That's a huge problem IMO given that you're trying to retrain soldiers who have been programmed for everything to be a threat. I'd love to dig into some statistics on that.

mister d wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:39 am Firefighters rush into burning buildings, sacrificing their own safety for the public. Cops often fire at the first sign of threat to themselves, putting their own safety above the public.

This isn't really applicable here, IMO. The woman was swinging a knife at another individual, who is also entitled to have the police protect her, unfortunately at the potential lethal expense of someone else.

Not directly applicable here, but the whole (non-universally applied) "I saw a weapon so they had to die" mentality still carried through.

Nonlinear FC wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:21 am The biggest swing that (hopefully) happens in our lifetime is a) sending out officers fully trained on handling people that are mentally impaired, b) sending out unarmed professionals trained in this area and/or c) teaming up armed officers and unarmed trained professionals to handle these situations.

So, defunding the police.

Also, the disingenuous arguments that the cop just showed and shot the girl in less than 15 seconds. He's getting a ton of information on the way there from dispatch. For example, the dispatcher's testimony in the Chauvin trail was key as she testified the Chauvin went far beyond what was necessary and she had to call a supervisor.

mister d wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:55 am Not directly applicable here, but the whole (non-universally applied) "I saw a weapon so they had to die" mentality still carried through.

Basically could four people, let alone four cops, find a non-lethal way to disarm a high school girl with a knife.

In an ideal world, any police officer who felt yesterday's decision was wrong would lose their job because they have the exact opposite mindset for the job. It is NOT "us against them" with a persecution complex tacked on.

But it is.

degenerasian wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:56 am Also, the disingenuous arguments that the cop just showed and shot the girl in less than 15 seconds. He's getting a ton of information on the way there from dispatch. For example, the dispatcher's testimony in the Chauvin trail was key as she testified the Chauvin went far beyond what was necessary and she had to call a supervisor.

Sometimes I honestly don't know how to read you bud. That's not a knock. I just genuinely can't interpret it.

BSF21 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:45 am

Nonlinear FC wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:21 am The biggest swing that (hopefully) happens in our lifetime is a) sending out officers fully trained on handling people that are mentally impaired, b) sending out unarmed professionals trained in this area and/or c) teaming up armed officers and unarmed trained professionals to handle these situations.

There's a very good documentary out there with two officers that were re-trained and are sent out to deal with these situations and it's a true game changer.

Another part of this is the type of people that tend to gravitate towards policing are often ex-military. That's a huge problem IMO given that you're trying to retrain soldiers who have been programmed for everything to be a threat. I'd love to dig into some statistics on that.

There are a couple of sources I saw that put the % of ex-military in the US police forces as 19%-20%. So that tells me it isn't ex-military alone that is driving the militarization of the US police. Although, the US Military selling "used" equipment to them isn't helping.

degenerasian wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:58 am

BSF21 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:45 am

Nonlinear FC wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:21 am The biggest swing that (hopefully) happens in our lifetime is a) sending out officers fully trained on handling people that are mentally impaired, b) sending out unarmed professionals trained in this area and/or c) teaming up armed officers and unarmed trained professionals to handle these situations.

There's a very good documentary out there with two officers that were re-trained and are sent out to deal with these situations and it's a true game changer.

Another part of this is the type of people that tend to gravitate towards policing are often ex-military. That's a huge problem IMO given that you're trying to retrain soldiers who have been programmed for everything to be a threat. I'd love to dig into some statistics on that.

There are a couple of sources I saw that put the % of ex-military in the US police forces as 19%-20%. So that tells me it isn't ex-military alone that is driving the militarization of the US police. Although, the US Military selling "used" equipment to them isn't helping.

I think if you're hunting for a singular reason policing in this country is fucked you're gonna be on a long trail.

BSF21 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:45 am Another part of this is the type of people that tend to gravitate towards policing are often ex-military. That's a huge problem IMO given that you're trying to retrain soldiers who have been programmed for everything to be a threat. I'd love to dig into some statistics on that.

At least in my experience, the people that have gone into law enforcement are the ones that wanted to go into the Marines or whatever but didn't make it for some reason. None of them were exactly scholars, and most had a vendetta of some kind.

mister d wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:56 am

mister d wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:55 am Not directly applicable here, but the whole (non-universally applied) "I saw a weapon so they had to die" mentality still carried through.

Basically could four people, let alone four cops, find a non-lethal way to disarm a high school girl with a knife.

I'm not trying to be a one-upper, but have you every had a knife pulled on you? Cause I have, and let me tell you, it is not a situation where you really think about anything other than "holy fuck he's got a knife." Luckily, my friend was behind the guy, put him in a headlock and threw him about twenty feet. I don't know that I could have done the same, but I'm glad he did.

BSF21 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:57 am

degenerasian wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:56 am Also, the disingenuous arguments that the cop just showed and shot the girl in less than 15 seconds. He's getting a ton of information on the way there from dispatch. For example, the dispatcher's testimony in the Chauvin trail was key as she testified the Chauvin went far beyond what was necessary and she had to call a supervisor.

Sometimes I honestly don't know how to read you bud. That's not a knock. I just genuinely can't interpret it.

Hmm, might be my bad English. There is a lot of criticism today that the officer just arrived and shot at a black girl. But i don't think that is fair because people forget that the the cop is getting information as he's arriving. He's already mentally prepared. He knows when he gets there, he needs to get the girl to put the knife down (hopefully she's by herself) and if she's threatening someone, to shoot her. He must be running scenarios in his head.

mister d wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:56 am

mister d wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:55 am Not directly applicable here, but the whole (non-universally applied) "I saw a weapon so they had to die" mentality still carried through.

Basically could four people, let alone four cops, find a non-lethal way to disarm a high school girl with a knife.

Could they shoot to injure rather than shoot to kill?

A_B wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:01 amI'm not trying to be a one-upper, but have you every had a knife pulled on you? Cause I have, and let me tell you, it is not a situation where you really think about anything other than "holy fuck he's got a knife." Luckily, my friend was behind the guy, put him in a headlock and threw him about twenty feet. I don't know that I could have done the same, but I'm glad he did.

Also not trying to be a one-upper, but we're not cops. We also don't run into burning buildings, score touchdowns, perform surgeries or any of a number of difficult and/or dangerous jobs.

mister d wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:07 am

A_B wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:01 amI'm not trying to be a one-upper, but have you every had a knife pulled on you? Cause I have, and let me tell you, it is not a situation where you really think about anything other than "holy fuck he's got a knife." Luckily, my friend was behind the guy, put him in a headlock and threw him about twenty feet. I don't know that I could have done the same, but I'm glad he did.

Also not trying to be a one-upper, but we're not cops. We also don't run into burning buildings, score touchdowns, perform surgeries or any of a number of difficult and/or dangerous jobs.

So...I was two steps from doing this once when the old lady stumbled out of the back door. My daughters were traumatized, yes!

degenerasian wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:01 am

BSF21 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:57 am

degenerasian wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:56 am Also, the disingenuous arguments that the cop just showed and shot the girl in less than 15 seconds. He's getting a ton of information on the way there from dispatch. For example, the dispatcher's testimony in the Chauvin trail was key as she testified the Chauvin went far beyond what was necessary and she had to call a supervisor.

Sometimes I honestly don't know how to read you bud. That's not a knock. I just genuinely can't interpret it.

Hmm, might be my bad English. There is a lot of criticism today that the officer just arrived and shot at a black girl. But i don't think that is fair because people forget that the the cop is getting information as he's arriving. He's already mentally prepared. He knows when he gets there, he needs to get the girl to put the knife down (hopefully she's by herself) and if she's threatening someone, to shoot her. He must be running scenarios in his head.

Information from dispatch is just information. The officers should not be using only that to determine what they are going to do when they arrive. Officers need to be trained to read the situation when they arrive, not before. Who knows who is feeding information to dispatch? Plenty of times that information is biased or just completely false.

I haven't read or watched anything about what this conversation started from. I just know that too often it is shoot first ask questions later. And society has been okay with that way of thinking for way too long. I am going to search for an article about an officer in either Benton Harbor or St. Joe Michigan that was fired for attempting to deescalate when first on scene. The fourth officer to get there shot the gentleman less than 10 seconds after getting out of his car. Dispatch said he had a gun. He didn't. Call came in from his ex. She told dispatch she thought he had a gun initially, but then told them repeatedly that he did not. The only officer to hear that was the officer that was fired. The other 6 came out guns blazing. The fired officer was ex-military and tried to use his training to deescalate. Brass wanted nothing to do with that. To them it was another thug off the street.

sancarlos wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:06 am

mister d wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:56 am

mister d wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:55 am Not directly applicable here, but the whole (non-universally applied) "I saw a weapon so they had to die" mentality still carried through.

Basically could four people, let alone four cops, find a non-lethal way to disarm a high school girl with a knife.

Could they shoot to injure rather than shoot to kill?

You have me blocked again? As I said upthread:

I really wanted to go off on the woman who said the cop should have shot her in the leg. Imagine training cops to shoot for the legs? Go for the narrowest, most mobile target out there, especially when there are innocent bystanders around! LEOs are all taught to shoot for center mass. It's the biggest, most stabile target, and you are going to stop the suspect if you hit them. Shooting should ALWAYS be the last resort, but if you have to shoot, you need to stop the suspect quickly.

My father bought his own bullet when he was a parole officer. His attitude was that if he ever needed to use his gun, it was life or death, and he was going to be the one walking away, so he wanted hallow points to do more damage. If an officer is in a situation that injuring the person is good enough, then they shouldn't be using their gun.

Gotcha. Syb, in my defense, by the time I see the Swamp in the morning, you east-coasters have posted a hundred times. I’m bound to miss one.

DSafetyGuy wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:55 am

Nonlinear FC wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:21 am The biggest swing that (hopefully) happens in our lifetime is a) sending out officers fully trained on handling people that are mentally impaired, b) sending out unarmed professionals trained in this area and/or c) teaming up armed officers and unarmed trained professionals to handle these situations.

So, defunding the police.

Absolutely. I just wish it wasn't framed that way, because it causes unnecessary backlash.

It's rethinking how we "police" millions of situations in a way that de-escalates AND gets people the help they need.

I gotta say, just watched the video multiple times... Especially in slo-mo... I'm not really sure what else the officer should've done there. She had a pretty big blade and was in the process of stabbing the shit out of that other girl.

And I don't really buy the idea that a white girl would've been spared here. That was a chaotic scene and that was a serious threat of bodily harm. The way I saw/read ppl carrying on, I thought she was just brandishing... She was in the active/violent act of stabbing.

Officer is supposed to yell police a bunch of times while the other girl is getting stabbed?

I think it's clear where I'm at in general, but you also can't just blanket say police should never use their weapon.

Nonlinear FC wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:16 pm I gotta say, just watched the video multiple times... Especially in slo-mo... I'm not really sure what else the officer should've done there. She had a pretty big blade and was in the process of stabbing the shit out of that other girl.

And I don't really buy the idea that a white girl would've been spared here. That was a chaotic scene and that was a serious threat of bodily harm. The way I saw/read ppl carrying on, I thought she was just brandishing... She was in the active/violent act of stabbing.

Officer is supposed to yell police a bunch of times while the other girl is getting stabbed?

I think it's clear where I'm at in general, but you also can't just blanket say police should never use their weapon.

I think that was my main point of my initial post. These are always grey. I wish there would have been some deescalation used. I haven’t watched the video. I’m just not the type. At the same time, AB is correct in saying knives are no joke. Ex post facto you can slice it 100 ways, but at the end of the day, some more nuance helps and I wish someone didn’t have to die.

O/T:

I can’t get past the question I have in my mind about the police:

What would John Q Cop have done when an officer is choking the life out of a subdued suspect?

Would he have intervened on behalf of Floyd, or would he be standing trial like the three ex-cops who face aiding and abetting murder charges?

EnochRoot wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:12 pm O/T:

I can’t get past the question I have in my mind about the police:

What would John Q Cop have done when an officer is choking the life out of a subdued suspect?

Would he have intervened on behalf of Floyd, or would he be standing trial like the three ex-cops who face aiding and abetting murder charges?

Also, one (or two?) of the ex-cops, it was his first week on the job. The first week on the job, are you telling anyone to do anything? Chauvin was the senior, 20 years in the force. Wasn't the reason Chauvin was called in because the original two cops couldn't handle Floyd in the first place? I know I'd be standing trail right now if I were them.

EnochRoot wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:12 pmI can’t get past the question I have in my mind about the police:

What would John Q Cop have done when an officer is choking the life out of a subdued suspect?

There's this one and there's also "What would have happened to a bystander who saved Floyd's life".

BSF21 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:59 pm

Nonlinear FC wrote: ↑Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:16 pm I gotta say, just watched the video multiple times... Especially in slo-mo... I'm not really sure what else the officer should've done there. She had a pretty big blade and was in the process of stabbing the shit out of that other girl.

And I don't really buy the idea that a white girl would've been spared here. That was a chaotic scene and that was a serious threat of bodily harm. The way I saw/read ppl carrying on, I thought she was just brandishing... She was in the active/violent act of stabbing.

Officer is supposed to yell police a bunch of times while the other girl is getting stabbed?

I think it's clear where I'm at in general, but you also can't just blanket say police should never use their weapon.

I think that was my main point of my initial post. These are always grey. I wish there would have been some deescalation used. I haven’t watched the video. I’m just not the type. At the same time, AB is correct in saying knives are no joke. Ex post facto you can slice it 100 ways, but at the end of the day, some more nuance helps and I wish someone didn’t have to die.

PHRASING!