The Swamp

degenerasian wrote:

Johnny Carwash wrote:Literally just a few minutes in to the first episode of Serial right now. Quick question: is that plinking piano theme a constant thing? Because that might be a deal-breaker.

It's always the intro and the ending. They don't use it as much after Episode 1. They use other music to set the mood of the show.

Yeah, the music is actually pretty well down in the episodes.

A few episodes in and the musical cues aren't as ubiquitous as I had worried. I like it a lot and should be caught up within the next week or so.

Johnny Carwash wrote:A few episodes in and the musical cues aren't as ubiquitous as I had worried. I like it a lot and should be caught up within the next week or so.

Any feelings either way so far? whether you think he did it or not? anything strange?

degenerasian wrote:

Johnny Carwash wrote:A few episodes in and the musical cues aren't as ubiquitous as I had worried. I like it a lot and should be caught up within the next week or so.

Any feelings either way so far? whether you think he did it or not? anything strange?

I just finished Episode 4, the one that first highlights the inconsistencies in Jay's accounts. Going in to the episode I thought the most plausible explanation was simply that Adnan did it, and that his seeming earnestness in his calls with the host was just him being a good liar. I'm less sure now...as others have mentioned, Jay just comes across as a strange dude whose motivations are really cloudy. Again, I'm not caught up with the rest of you guys so I'm sure my opinions will change again along the way.

Johnny Carwash wrote:

degenerasian wrote:

Johnny Carwash wrote:A few episodes in and the musical cues aren't as ubiquitous as I had worried. I like it a lot and should be caught up within the next week or so.

Any feelings either way so far? whether you think he did it or not? anything strange?

I just finished Episode 4, the one that first highlights the inconsistencies in Jay's accounts. Going in to the episode I thought the most plausible explanation was simply that Adnan did it, and that his seeming earnestness in his calls with the host was just him being a good liar. I'm less sure now...as others have mentioned, Jay just comes across as a strange dude whose motivations are really cloudy. Again, I'm not caught up with the rest of you guys so I'm sure my opinions will change again along the way.

That's perfect, wanted to get your opinion around episodes 4 and 5 where we were earlier in this thread. At that point I thought the things against Adnan were: his suspicious behavior at "Katies" house, The Nisha call, and him not trying to contact Hae at all after she went missing.

I'm about to listen to the final episode.

I listened to the finale. I have a complaint. I will wait.

DSafetyGuy wrote:I listened to the finale. I have a complaint. I will wait.

Just finished, I thought they wrapped that up fairly well. It had been spiraling out of control the last few episodes so I don't think there was really any other way.

Spoilers later.

Yeah, like, how long do we need to wait on spoilers?

We probably should've just cleaved this off into another thread.

I think I've moved myself into a place where I've been analyzing two things: 1) merits of the case and 2) Adnan's guilt or innocence.

I have stuff to say (shocking, I know) but I'll hold it there.

Spoil away. You guys are finished, I'll restrain myself from checking this thread until I'm caught up. No need to hold back on my (or anyone else's) account.

Okay, then. Post-episode 12 discussion follows, read at own risk of spoilers.



I really have a hard time believing that Sarah Koenig was deemed acceptable to interview someone (Josh) who who contacted her about the case because he had listened to the podcast, then took that person's input as unbiased. I know that this happens often in that someone will read about a crime in the newspaper, then steps forward with information, but with the media attention around the podcast itself, maybe I'm just being cynical, but I have a hard time believing that someone would just step forward with pure intentions after all this time. (And what did that guy really add to everything? He worked with Jay, but hardly knew him and thinks he saw him one time after Hae was murdered, "maybe to pick up his check".)

I also hate that she wipes away the murderer who got out of jail right before Hae was killed as part of Adnan's "bad luck". She simply dismisses the guy who has an exceptionally long criminal record out of hand because she wants the answer to already be is front of her and his release is a potential simple explanation that she doesn't want to believe. She's already decided certain things and can't accept when something fits out of that picture, which is the same as the police "deciding" Adnan was guilty and investigating that way, regardless of how many times Jay lied to them and changed his story.

I've thought Jay was guilty for several episodes now and I can see it being the guy who got out of jail. I just don't think it was Adnan. If it was, why would he be a model prisoner all this time? Why would he still be "waiting for this bad dream to end"? Why would he still calmly cling to his innocence? (Yes, he always seems to over-explain things in that "I can see how someone would think that" way, but I think that his experience with the legal system - being wrongly convicted - has shown him that things can seem a certain way when they are not.) Why does the law school innocence project view his case as one strong enough that they are going to work on it?

I agree with your first two paragraphs. To introduce new information in the last episode is weird. It's like she had this script of the first 11 episodes of when to introduce info and now she's just reaching. Calling Adnan for the last time as well, hoping to get a verdict. Of course he just plays coy and tells her to play it down the middle.

I do believe going into this Sarah thought it would be a good show and slam dunk case, she would find the facts that would 100% mean Adnan was innocent or guilty. But along the way it got more muddled up than she ever thought it would.

I think Adnan killed her though. There are just so many circumstances. Why did he lend his car and phone to Jay? Why did he ask Hae for a ride that day when he never does and they're not dating anymore. Why does he not attempt to call her after he finds out she's missing? He called her the night before to give her his new phone number even when they're not dating anymore!

What could Adnan say now. He had two choices, he could confess and go through the parole process. Parole is only given to those who show remorse. Or he can go the innocent route with the help of his friend Ravia. He's chosen this route so he has to act like he's innocent, even if he's not.

The last quote from him on the phone.

"I don't think you'll ever find 100% or be certain about it. The only people in the whole world who can have that is me...

PAUSE

...and, for what it's worth, whoever did it.

And I don't think you'll ever have that. You never will."

I think that was a slip.

degenerasian wrote:I think Adnan killed her though. There are just so many circumstances. Why did he lend his car and phone to Jay? Why did he ask Hae for a ride that day when he never does and they're not dating anymore. Why does he not attempt to call her after he finds out she's missing? He called her the night before to give her his new phone number even when they're not dating anymore!

Did he ever say why he loaned Jay his car? Did Jay have his own car? I don't recall it ever being mentioned that he did. Maybe Adnan loaned Jay his car so Jay could get weed for both of them because he had track practice.

It was mentioned many times that Adnan and Hae still hung out together after they split, including as part of a group of friends. When they had previously broken up, they got back together, so it's very possible they both thought the possibility of getting back together existed.

degenerasian wrote:The last quote from him on the phone.

"I don't think you'll ever find 100% or be certain about it. The only people in the whole world who can have that is me...

PAUSE

...and, for what it's worth, whoever did it.

And I don't think you'll ever have that. You never will."

I think that was a slip.

Or, it's also possible that he says it that way because he's talking about it from his perspective as the person in jail... then tacks on that the person who actually did it knows, too. After all, he says "people", meaning more than one. Had he slipped, it would likely to have been "the only person".

Serial is the podcast version of Lost for me. It got wildly popular very fast. My initial tendency was to wait and see before jumping in. The outcome is either implausible or undetermined. Oh, and my wife was hooked from the start.

I have so (too) much to say, but have to go into a training session.

The show ended about where I expected, not necessarily from my initial hopes, but from about episode 7 or so on... You knew she didn't have enough info or enough time to crack the case.

So, what the show turned into, at least IMO, was a real indictment of our judicial system. Someone, somewhere mentioned that in Scotland (I think) they break down a criminal trial with two possible verdicts: guilty or not proven. The idea there is that a trial isn't necessarily about the accused being innocent, it's about, very specifically, whether the State has enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the person is guilty of the crime.

I wholeheartedly agree with Koenig (and the other experts she spoke with) that he never should've been convicted of this crime.

Now, as to the other aspect of the show, whether he actually committed the crime? Shit, I gotta go... Thoughts on that later.

I'd like to know more about the mistrail. Was it really headed to an acquittal and was only a mistrail because a juror heard the judge call Gutierrez a liar? Is this common?

Lawyers?

Ok, as for the speculation side of things, is Adnan guilty or not:

Who the fuck knows? If people out there are certain, one way or the other, they must know something the rest of us don't. Because as much as I wanted to believe this likeable guy didn't do this, as the asst. producer stated, there are just too many aspects of Adnan's story that need to be explained.

But what really bugs me is the lack of an explanation as to why Jay was so wrapped up in Adnan's mess (if you want to believe the basis of Jay's version of events.) None of his explanations about being worried about being turned in for "illegal activities" hold up. At all. He's supplying a shovel or shovels, he's driving around and helping bury a body? Why?

There's just something fairly significant we don't know, tying Adnan and Jay together, with Jenn likely involved or knowledgeable about that "something." I'd also really like to hear from Stephanie, as well.

I'm binging through Serial right now, so I've skipped all your posts. SNL was awesome for this last night:



And this looks pretty awesome too. I'll be listening to it.

Also pretty awesome:

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I finished it up and don't know what to think. Due to lack of evidence, the bungling of not following up with other evidence, and that Jay guy, Adnan should not be in jail. Whether he did it out not, I have no idea. But when Jay knows the location of the car, his constant misstatements, and the exact clothing Hae was wearing, he should have been looked at with more scrutiny.

Also, anyone else yell out "Bullshit!" At the beginning of each podcast when the lady says "I use Mail Chimp"?

Johnnie wrote:Also pretty awesome:

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I finished it up and don't know what to think. Due to lack of evidence, the bungling of not following up with other evidence, and that Jay guy, Adnan should not be in jail. Whether he did it out not, I have no idea. But when Jay knows the location of the car, his constant misstatements, and the exact clothing Hae was wearing, he should have been looked at with more scrutiny.

Also, anyone else yell out "Bullshit!" At the beginning of each podcast when the lady says "I use Mail Chimp"?

Yeah, they burned a good chunk of that one episode on the fact that Jay got a deal. Not to mention a pro bono lawyer from a big time firm.

Jay, for a lot of reasons, is what makes this series maddening. I said it before, I'll reiterate: There hasn't been a plausible explanation as to why Jay goes through all of the effort to assist Adnan in his effort to bury the body.

People that think Adnan did it point to his motive being a spurned ex-boyfriend. Which I've always felt was extremely weak. And I say that to counter what I've heard a lot of people say in defense of Jay - "What's his motive to kill Hae?"

I don't fucking know, but what was his MOTIVE to be Adnan's wing man after the crime was committed? That's just as big of a hole, in my opinion, in any narrative that has Adnan killing Hae.

Thinking on Jay's side. If Adnan lent you his car and phone. Then he calls you to a location and shows you Hae's dead body in the trunk, holy shit you're kind of stuck aren't you? All you can do is help bury the body and hope no one finds it.

And when someone finds it, you cooperate with the police and say Adnan did it.. cause he did it and you were stuck.

That is of course if what Jay says is true.

So do I really need to listen to serial? People at work are raving over it, too. These types of stories drive me nuts, when you really don't know what happened and you feel like you are either hearing about a horrible injustice and empathize with a man wrongly convicted and imprisoned, which is the worst fate imaginable, all while fearing that you are being duped into feeling horrible for a twisted killer.

I hear the storytelling is incredible, but I will seriously torment myself over the case,specially if it is really impossible to decide how you feel about this. Is this going to be like Lost, where I binge watch the first season during the final season of the show after listening to everyone rave over it for years, only to be universally told to stop watching, because the ending is so horrible, I'll end up hating it?

The Sybian wrote:So do I really need to listen to serial? People at work are raving over it, too. These types of stories drive me nuts, when you really don't know what happened and you feel like you are either hearing about a horrible injustice and empathize with a man wrongly convicted and imprisoned, which is the worst fate imaginable, all while fearing that you are being duped into feeling horrible for a twisted killer.

I hear the storytelling is incredible, but I will seriously torment myself over the case,specially if it is really impossible to decide how you feel about this. Is this going to be like Lost, where I binge watch the first season during the final season of the show after listening to everyone rave over it for years, only to be universally told to stop watching, because the ending is so horrible, I'll end up hating it?

I think you would enjoy it, knowing what you (kind of) know already about the outcome. As someone into how stories are told, just the storytelling aspect is worth your time.

I've listened to every episode twice. (My wife wanted something to listen to on a recent road trip, and I thought I might get something out of a second listen, so there you go.)

There's absolutely a feeling of frustration. But I'm still glad I put the time into the show, and I look forward to seeing what the do with a second season, having learned from this experience.

Nonlinear FC wrote:

The Sybian wrote:So do I really need to listen to serial? People at work are raving over it, too. These types of stories drive me nuts, when you really don't know what happened and you feel like you are either hearing about a horrible injustice and empathize with a man wrongly convicted and imprisoned, which is the worst fate imaginable, all while fearing that you are being duped into feeling horrible for a twisted killer.

I hear the storytelling is incredible, but I will seriously torment myself over the case,specially if it is really impossible to decide how you feel about this. Is this going to be like Lost, where I binge watch the first season during the final season of the show after listening to everyone rave over it for years, only to be universally told to stop watching, because the ending is so horrible, I'll end up hating it?

I think you would enjoy it, knowing what you (kind of) know already about the outcome. As someone into how stories are told, just the storytelling aspect is worth your time.

I've listened to every episode twice. (My wife wanted something to listen to on a recent road trip, and I thought I might get something out of a second listen, so there you go.)

There's absolutely a feeling of frustration. But I'm still glad I put the time into the show, and I look forward to seeing what the do with a second season, having learned from this experience.

Downloaded. Thanks.

From the Serial Podcast subreddit:

(incoming wall of text)

So I managed to finish late last week and collect my thoughts:

1. First off, I want to say Sarah Koening did a fantastic job with this. Certainly not perfect, but still the overall concept and presentation were really groundbreaking and innovative, and I'd absolutely be up for additional seasons. I'm making a point to praise her and the show up front because I'm already seeing a wave of contrarian hipster fucks like this saying it wasn't actually any good (if you guessed without looking that this was a Gawker link, you are correct).

2. I still think that the most plausible scenario is that Adnan did it. The circumstantial evidence is not completely convincing, but as Sarah's friend pointed out, would require Adnan to have had an almost unimaginable string of bad luck if he were innocent. I more or less gave up on trying to find any "tells" that he might have been lying in his calls with Sarah. There were a few times he got kind of flustered when Sarah asked him a difficult question, but not really conclusive. The biggest takeaway I got was that he is very smart--the smartest, I think, of any of the principals involved in the case, not just book-smart like a lawyer, but that his thinking was at a higher level. He seemed to be one step ahead of Sarah most of the time during their conversations, anticipating her questions and having well-formed responses. This could be a sign of telling the truth, or of a very good liar with a lot of free time to prepare. Still, the circumstances, and the lack of viable alternative explanations, don't look good for him.

3. Regarding Jay, I was really suspicious of him early on, but the episode called "The Deal with Jay," which I guess was supposed to cast doubt on his story, actually ended up making me more inclined to believe him. He seems like just a weird guy, self-aware of his weirdness, and used to people not trusting him, but I find the basics of his story more believable than any of Adnan's defenses. It's highly possible he's hedging on the degree of his involvement, but the idea that he committed the murder himself, with no involvement from Adnan, with no possible motive other than he maybe thought Adnan was after his girlfriend, seems really far-fetched. And I do think it's feasible that if Adnan were the domineering bully as some have suggested, for Jay to feel legitimately scared and pressed into something he did not want a part of.

4. Related to that last point, a problem with a lot of the analysis I'm hearing is that people are projecting the mindset of mature adults onto people who were only 17-18 at the time. At that age, many of my own thought processes would seem thoroughly irrational and impulsive to my adult self, and that's without having been subjected to anything nearly as extreme as this. The question "But why would he/she do this?" keeps popping up, when "Because he/she was a dumb teenager who wasn't thinking" is a wholly valid response.

5. Didn't see if this was already mentioned on this thread, but holy shit did Adnan's defense attorney sound like a colossal C-word in the tapes from the trials. I don't think it's unreasonable to conclude her personality could have played a part in turning the jury against her client in a case that otherwise had a lot of question marks and could have ended in an acquittal with more sane/stable representation.

6. The friends of Adnan who had taken up his cause annoyed me and reminded me of the knee-jerk defensive mentality you'd hear whenever one of the popular kids at school got accused of doing something bad. Especially the lawyer girl, whose going out of her way to tell you she was a lawyer reminded me of Tracy Morgan's impression of Star Jones on SNL. A disproportionate amount of the arguments for Adnan's innocence seemed to be based on "I knew him and he would never do this!" and I've heard that before.

7. So this is a spin-off of This American Life, right? I'd heard of TAL a lot, but I guess the name made me assume the series was composed of ultra-quaint Garrison Keillor bullshit stories about a family business that made apple butter or something. Might need to give it a listen now.

Without point-by-pointing this thing:

Follow the lawyer/money. You kind of skipped over that, but it's a very big deal. In fact, I'm kind of annoyed with Serial/Koenig over how they dealt with this woman. She was stealing money from clients. She did an absolutely fucking TERRIBLE job defending Adnan.

Minutes after Adnan was convicted, she turned to the grieving family in an elevator and told them she'd need $50k for the appeal. That's not only heartless and shitty, it reeks of something more nefarious. Many legal experts looking at this case, just in terms of what she did/didn't do at trial point to complete incompetence.

Koenig's portrayal of her is... charitable. She talks about forgiveness and paints almost a sympathetic figure. Fuck that. This woman ruined this kid's life. (And, as that episode shows, she'd done it to others.)

I just found that episode maddening. As much as I like the show, if there's one thing I think they fucked up on, it was with how they dealt with the trials and this lawyer. They easily could've detailed all the ways she fucked up, and they just didn't do that. (There are plenty of places that have chronicled this stuff, the work has been done for anyone that wants to find it.)

The other thing I want to say is that Serial fucks up the cell tower "evidence." Where and how a cell phone pings a tower has been proven to be completely unreliable in pinpointing location. The fact that they continued to use the state's faulty logic all the way to the end was extremely frustrating. One of the producers, Julie, continued to reference this in episode 12 and I wanted to pull my hair out.

The other thing to make clear about that day... Jay ASKED for the car and the cell phone was inadvertently left in there. A lot of people are under the mistaken impression that Adnan gave him the car and cell phone.

Just not true, according to lots of testimony, including from Jay.

Johnny Carwash wrote:(incoming wall of text)

7. So this is a spin-off of This American Life, right? I'd heard of TAL a lot, but I guess the name made me assume the series was composed of ultra-quaint Garrison Keillor bullshit stories about a family business that made apple butter or something. Might need to give it a listen now.

Holy Shit. I missed this on first read.

Dude. This is like saying, "So, I was watching the trailer for this new show, Better Call Saul, and they kept mentioning this other show... Breaking Bad? Might need to give that a watch."

You just opened up a treasure trove. They aren't all winners, but that show consistently cranks out amazing content. The same producers/writers that put together Serial are all over TAL.

Jay speaks!!! I am on episode 10, and man am I glad I listened to this. I love the way she tells the story, even her inappropriately use of casual phrases. Jay's explanation of his inconsistencies make sense, initially lying to protect his grandmother and fear of getting busted for selling drugs. He could be concocting this new story to counter Serial pointing out his lies, but I tend to believe him. Adnan has had a lot of time to perfect his story, and he is clearly charismatic. Despite what the UVA professor said, I think it is entirely possible he is a sociopath or convinced himself he didn't do anything wrong. In the end, we will probably never know.

Part 2 of that interview will be very interesting. I've always believed Jay even with all the inconsistencies. What a fucked up situation to suddenly be in. Someone you know suddenly killed his ex-gf and you're part of it after the fact. Adnan knew he could blackmail Jay, that's why he chose him.

bfj wrote:

testy boxcar wrote:NORM MACDONALD HAS A PODCAST!?!?!?!?

#6 on the comedy charts right now. And don't yell at me.

This may have been the best discovery of 2014 for me. I loves the jokes segment, his running bits about being fat and his Holocaust survivor doctor, and so much more. At first I was picking and choosing based on who he interviewed but it doesn't even matter.

Hearing that Dan Carlin's podcast will come out Tuesday. WW1 Part 5.

Supposedly over 6 hours long. That will kill off a workday.

degenerasian wrote:Hearing that Dan Carlin's podcast will come out Tuesday. WW1 Part 5.

Supposedly over 6 hours long. That will kill off a workday.

It's out!

It's Here! It's Here! Four Empires Fall!

howard wrote:It's Here! It's Here! Four Empires Fall!

I've got to finish Episode IV A New Hope first!

degenerasian wrote:Part 2 of that interview will be very interesting. I've always believed Jay even with all the inconsistencies. What a fucked up situation to suddenly be in. Someone you know suddenly killed his ex-gf and you're part of it after the fact. Adnan knew he could blackmail Jay, that's why he chose him.

I do think it's more plausible, knowing why he was changing his story (to protect friends and his grandmother.)

Nonlinear FC wrote:

degenerasian wrote:Part 2 of that interview will be very interesting. I've always believed Jay even with all the inconsistencies. What a fucked up situation to suddenly be in. Someone you know suddenly killed his ex-gf and you're part of it after the fact. Adnan knew he could blackmail Jay, that's why he chose him.

I do think it's more plausible, knowing why he was changing his story (to protect friends and his grandmother.)

With that said... Holy shit did he change his story for this interview. A lot of what he says in this version pretty much can't be true, given other people's testimony and cell phone records (not locations, but the timing of outgoing/incoming calls.)

Nonlinear FC wrote:

Nonlinear FC wrote:

degenerasian wrote:Part 2 of that interview will be very interesting. I've always believed Jay even with all the inconsistencies. What a fucked up situation to suddenly be in. Someone you know suddenly killed his ex-gf and you're part of it after the fact. Adnan knew he could blackmail Jay, that's why he chose him.

I do think it's more plausible, knowing why he was changing his story (to protect friends and his grandmother.)

With that said... Holy shit did he change his story for this interview. A lot of what he says in this version pretty much can't be true, given other people's testimony and cell phone records (not locations, but the timing of outgoing/incoming calls.)

Changed his story compared to the other 4 versions of his story? I find the interview genuine though because he's just remembering (or mis-remembering) stuff from 15 years ago. It doesn't seem like he went back over the facts and studied up for this interview. I think this is closer to the truth than during the trial when he was protecting people, was in cahoots with the police where his story had to match evidence and the defense was so shitty that the 2nd jury found Adnan guilty.

Amazing how police worked at all before DNA testing. If this happened today, they could lift prints off of Hae's car (Steering Wheel, Rear View Mirror, Trunk etc...) . GPS would track that car anywhere I think.

Carlin likened Grigori Rasputin to the Nick Nolte character in the film Down and Out in Beverly Hills. Hilarious.

howard wrote:Carlin likened Grigori Rasputin to the Nick Nolte character in the film Down and Out in Beverly Hills. Hilarious.

I read a biography of Rasputin. Crazy dude.