Ukraine

[brian]

Salon has a couple articles from a correspondent asserting that the US goaded Russia into this.

https://www.salon.com/2022/02/26/the-uk ... -foretold/

https://www.salon.com/2022/03/01/is-the ... no-excuse/

Those read like Russian apologia/propaganda to me.

[Steve of phpBB]

Salon has a couple articles from a correspondent asserting that the US goaded Russia into this.

https://www.salon.com/2022/02/26/the-uk ... -foretold/

https://www.salon.com/2022/03/01/is-the ... no-excuse/

Those read like Russian apologia/propaganda to me.

Maybe, but that doesn't mean they are 100% incorrect.

Russia is 100% responsible for this unjustified war. But how sure are we that the US and the West didn't do irresponsible things to make this war more likely, if not now then some time the near future - even if the war is not our "fault"?

People whose lives are being torn apart right now probably don't care if expanding NATO to include Poland and the Baltics was justified.

[tennbengal]

[Steve of phpBB]

I stopped reading Salon a long time ago because their headlines seem so much more sensationalistic and eye catching than nearly anywhere else. Are they actually reputable?

Amanda Marcotte publishes there, and she is pretty reliable. I don't know about anyone else they publish.

I also don't know much about the guy who wrote those articles. Based on his Wiki, he seems pretty hard left, stridently critical of the US and its warmongering. But he's apparently a real journalist with a real body of work, so I don't know if he can be dismissed as a nutjob.

[The Sybian]

[P.D.X.]

Most recently appearing in a Let it Be mashup!

(Dee Snider is great and so is the We Are Twisted F*ing Sister doc if you haven't seen it.)

[Johnnie]

I stopped reading Salon a long time ago because their headlines seem so much more sensationalistic and eye catching than nearly anywhere else. Are they actually reputable?

Amanda Marcotte publishes there, and she is pretty reliable. I don't know about anyone else they publish.

I also don't know much about the guy who wrote those articles. Based on his Wiki, he seems pretty hard left, stridently critical of the US and its warmongering. But he's apparently a real journalist with a real body of work, so I don't know if he can be dismissed as a nutjob.

Fair, but I'm still going to gloss over it, until it's proven true.

One of the subreddits I frequent and lurk is r/Politics. I can tell you from a daily scroll (all of their links are the headlines they share) that without question, Salon goes harder sensationalist and harder "LOOK AT ME" for their headlines than every other website shared. And that includes hard lefty sites like Common Dreams and the like.

The subreddit shares a mix of everything from lots of sources too so while left leaning, it's fairly straight forward.

Edit:

I'll just sum like this: Switzerland took a side. So any anti American stuff is just eyeroll inducing.

[L-Jam3]

I'll just sum like this: Switzerland took a side. So any anti American stuff is just eyeroll inducing.

For that matter, BP and Shell are refusing to take Russian crude. If fucking oil companies say you’re too toxic, it’s pretty safe to say that you’re in the wrong.

[The Sybian]

I'll just sum like this: Switzerland took a side. So any anti American stuff is just eyeroll inducing.

For that matter, BP and Shell are refusing to take Russian crude. If fucking oil companies say you’re too toxic, it’s pretty safe to say that you’re in the wrong.

UNLESS... he Ukranian Nazis so powerful they secretly control the world! George Soros is clearly behind all of this.

[Shirley]

I also don't know much about the guy who wrote those articles. Based on his Wiki, he seems pretty hard left, stridently critical of the US and its warmongering. But he's apparently a real journalist with a real body of work, so I don't know if he can be dismissed as a nutjob.

I haven't read the articles, but if the claim is that Country A invaded Country B and it's really Country C's fault ... there better be a shitload of good evidence.

[Rex]

Wait, why can't I simply rest on my priors?

[The Sybian]

I also don't know much about the guy who wrote those articles. Based on his Wiki, he seems pretty hard left, stridently critical of the US and its warmongering. But he's apparently a real journalist with a real body of work, so I don't know if he can be dismissed as a nutjob.

I haven't read the articles, but if the claim is that Country A invaded Country B and it's really Country C's fault ... there better be a shitload of good evidence.

Even if Biden triple dog dared Putin?

[EnochRoot]

Salon has a couple articles from a correspondent asserting that the US goaded Russia into this.

https://www.salon.com/2022/02/26/the-uk ... -foretold/

https://www.salon.com/2022/03/01/is-the ... no-excuse/

Those read like Russian apologia/propaganda to me.

Maybe, but that doesn't mean they are 100% incorrect.

Russia is 100% responsible for this unjustified war. But how sure are we that the US and the West didn't do irresponsible things to make this war more likely, if not now then some time the near future - even if the war is not our "fault"?

People whose lives are being torn apart right now probably don't care if expanding NATO to include Poland and the Baltics was justified.

I'd say the chances are probably negligible that American / NATO policies greased the skids here, if only because Putin would've been doing this exact thing one way or another.

[HaulCitgo]

I once had a project finance opportunity. How much $$$

"Germany has long soft-pedaled policies targeting Russia, but its chancellor, Olaf Scholz, made a moving and extraordinary change, committing an additional $100 billion to defense spending immediately, shipping weapons to Ukraine, and ending the Nord Stream 2 pipeline, which was constructed to bring gas to Germany from Russia."

[Johnnie]

Man, now I gotta read these in order to comment further...

First link, 12 paragraphs of an "I, me, my" screed on his experience in being in foreign countries at war. Harrowing accounts, yes. But ok, get to the point. Followed up by two paragraphs hating the military industrial complex.

If expanding NATO and having American influence by providing defense in that region is a 'goad' to Russia, then fucking ok. Extremely weak argument. Also gotta love him casually saying the following, "There are no good wars. None. This includes World War II, which has been sanitized and mythologized to mendaciously celebrate American heroism, purity and goodness. If truth is the first casualty in war, ambiguity is the second." Please expand on that shit, Chris.

Second link, more of the same. A timeline that strips the nuance of what Russia did in the meantime between the promise of there being less NATO influence and actual NATO influence.

Like, c'mon, man. History is messy. I get that he's been impacted by his experiences, but to put it all on us as aggressors who goad is ridiculous.

[degenerasian]

Canada has the most Ukrainians outside of Russia and Ukraine and Winnipeg has the most Ukrainians in Canada.

[Steve of phpBB]

I also don't know much about the guy who wrote those articles. Based on his Wiki, he seems pretty hard left, stridently critical of the US and its warmongering. But he's apparently a real journalist with a real body of work, so I don't know if he can be dismissed as a nutjob.

I haven't read the articles, but if the claim is that Country A invaded Country B and it's really Country C's fault ... there better be a shitload of good evidence.

No, that’s not the claim. The claim (or at least the only claim that I think *may* have some basis) is that actions by US/NATO helped create a situation where this war was likely to happen.

For example, 15(?) million Russians died in WW II. The country was devastated. There are people still alive in Russia who remember those years. And millions of people in Russia whose parents lived through that (or didn’t). Is it completely insane for Russia not to want their neighbors to be in a military alliance with Germany? Alliances that could involve German troops in those countries?

Others grew up with US nuclear missiles aimed at them. Is it completely insane for them not to want American troops and arms right on their borders?

This does not justify the war. It doesn’t defend Putin. It doesn’t mean we shouldn’t support Ukraine 100 percent. But it *might* mean that expanding a German-American-British-French military alliance right to Russia’s borders was likely to lead to Russian hostility.

[EnochRoot]

I also don't know much about the guy who wrote those articles. Based on his Wiki, he seems pretty hard left, stridently critical of the US and its warmongering. But he's apparently a real journalist with a real body of work, so I don't know if he can be dismissed as a nutjob.

I haven't read the articles, but if the claim is that Country A invaded Country B and it's really Country C's fault ... there better be a shitload of good evidence.

No, that’s not the claim. The claim (or at least the only claim that I think *may* have some basis) is that actions by US/NATO helped create a situation where this war was likely to happen.

For example, 15(?) million Russians died in WW II. The country was devastated. There are people still alive in Russia who remember those years. And millions of people in Russia whose parents lived through that (or didn’t). Is it completely insane for Russia not to want their neighbors to be in a military alliance with Germany? Alliances that could involve German troops in those countries?

Others grew up with US nuclear missiles aimed at them. Is it completely insane for them not to want American troops and arms right on their borders?

This does not justify the war. It doesn’t defend Putin. It doesn’t mean we shouldn’t support Ukraine 100 percent. But it *might* mean that expanding a German-American-British-French military alliance right to Russia’s borders was likely to lead to Russian hostility.

Yeah, the past thirty years of Russian governance has really emphasized the plight of the greatest Russian generation.

Russia has been a kleptocracy for decades. This was going to happen regardless of NATO expansion. The only question would be whether or not they'd have an excuse for their actions.

Don't fall for that shit.

[DaveInSeattle]

Chef Jose Andres is a giant among men...

[EdRomero]

I also don't know much about the guy who wrote those articles. Based on his Wiki, he seems pretty hard left, stridently critical of the US and its warmongering. But he's apparently a real journalist with a real body of work, so I don't know if he can be dismissed as a nutjob.

I haven't read the articles, but if the claim is that Country A invaded Country B and it's really Country C's fault ... there better be a shitload of good evidence.

No, that’s not the claim. The claim (or at least the only claim that I think *may* have some basis) is that actions by US/NATO helped create a situation where this war was likely to happen.

For example, 15(?) million Russians died in WW II. The country was devastated. There are people still alive in Russia who remember those years. And millions of people in Russia whose parents lived through that (or didn’t). Is it completely insane for Russia not to want their neighbors to be in a military alliance with Germany? Alliances that could involve German troops in those countries?

Do they remember Stalin making an alliance with Germany before WWII? Or the Soviet "alliance" with East Germany? Or the whole point of NATO as the Soviets were taking over all of Eastern Europe? What's your excuse for them threatening Sweden and Finland? Vikings? So it is completely insane for Russia (no, not Russia -- Putin) to not want their neighors to make military alliances.

[A_B]

I also don't know much about the guy who wrote those articles. Based on his Wiki, he seems pretty hard left, stridently critical of the US and its warmongering. But he's apparently a real journalist with a real body of work, so I don't know if he can be dismissed as a nutjob.

I haven't read the articles, but if the claim is that Country A invaded Country B and it's really Country C's fault ... there better be a shitload of good evidence.

No, that’s not the claim. The claim (or at least the only claim that I think *may* have some basis) is that actions by US/NATO helped create a situation where this war was likely to happen.

For example, 15(?) million Russians died in WW II. The country was devastated. There are people still alive in Russia who remember those years. And millions of people in Russia whose parents lived through that (or didn’t). Is it completely insane for Russia not to want their neighbors to be in a military alliance with Germany? Alliances that could involve German troops in those countries?

Do they remember Stalin making an alliance with Germany before WWII? Or the Soviet "alliance" with East Germany? Or the whole point of NATO as the Soviets were taking over all of Eastern Europe? What's your excuse for them threatening Sweden and Finland? Vikings? So it is completely insane for Russia (no, not Russia -- Putin) to not want their neighors to make military alliances.

[Gunpowder]

I also don't know much about the guy who wrote those articles. Based on his Wiki, he seems pretty hard left, stridently critical of the US and its warmongering. But he's apparently a real journalist with a real body of work, so I don't know if he can be dismissed as a nutjob.

I haven't read the articles, but if the claim is that Country A invaded Country B and it's really Country C's fault ... there better be a shitload of good evidence.

No, that’s not the claim. The claim (or at least the only claim that I think *may* have some basis) is that actions by US/NATO helped create a situation where this war was likely to happen.

For example, 15(?) million Russians died in WW II. The country was devastated. There are people still alive in Russia who remember those years. And millions of people in Russia whose parents lived through that (or didn’t). Is it completely insane for Russia not to want their neighbors to be in a military alliance with Germany? Alliances that could involve German troops in those countries?

Others grew up with US nuclear missiles aimed at them. Is it completely insane for them not to want American troops and arms right on their borders?

This does not justify the war. It doesn’t defend Putin. It doesn’t mean we shouldn’t support Ukraine 100 percent. But it *might* mean that expanding a German-American-British-French military alliance right to Russia’s borders was likely to lead to Russian hostility.

I don't think Russia was the only European country to have bad experiences with Germany in the 1940s.

[EdRomero]

The US has an embarassing history of some of their citizens ignoring and excusing atrocious behavior by Russian/Soviet leadership. Whether it's John Reed during the revolution, American socialist throughout the 20th century, or anti-Hillary/libertarian/Republican trolls today, they got so caught up in their ideology or being against something, they downplayed the USSR's intention and attempts for full global revolution, Russia always trying to expand its borders, and the murder of millions and millions of their own people and ethnic minorities. It's such an attrocious history, and it's unfortunate it can't be identified as such without hearing whataboutism.

[degenerasian]

The US has an embarassing history of some of their citizens ignoring and excusing atrocious behavior by Russian/Soviet leadership. Whether it's John Reed during the revolution, American socialist throughout the 20th century, or anti-Hillary/libertarian/Republican trolls today, they got so caught up in their ideology or being against something, they downplayed the USSR's intention and attempts for full global revolution, Russia always trying to expand its borders, and the murder of millions and millions of their own people and ethnic minorities. It's such an attrocious history, and it's unfortunate it can't be identified as such without hearing whataboutism.

The last 20 or 30 years it's been all about money hasn't it? And hoping that Russia (and China) would become less communist or dictatorial if they embraced capitalism. So all our money has gone there and it's actually gotten worse. Worse human rights violations and more threat of war. Russia to Ukraine and China to Taiwan. When the USSR fell, oh here's our opportunity! Or when Xi Jinping became president, there were articles saying he was an economist and reformer.

[Johnnie]

This whole scene is something.

[L-Jam3]

I can’t speak at all to the veracity of this, but if true this would be crippling:

[mister d]

I understand nothing of the legality or process for asset seizures and I may be cheering on illegal or unethical(?) maneuvering and it may end up in a slippery slope someday, but I don't care right now. I love it.

[A_B]

I understand nothing of the legality or process for asset seizures and I may be cheering on illegal or unethical(?) maneuvering and it may end up in a slippery slope someday, but I don't care right now. I love it.

You looking to buy a billion-dollar yacht in a couple of years? We won't hold it against you so long as you take us with you.

[The Sybian]

I'm struck by how attractive the Ukranian MPs are. Lesia Vasylenko is the stand out, but I've seen interviews with a couple other female MPs that are just gorgeous. And they are incredibly poised and intelligent speaking in English under unthinkable circumstances. And we have Nancy Pelosi and Lauren Boebert. Sorry for violating the rules, but none of the images I'm posting will embed.

[Nonlinear FC]

You aint the only one, apparently: https://www.indiatoday.in/world/russia- ... 2022-02-27

[Rush2112]

Lesia Vasylenko

[Rush2112]

and the beauty queen in that India Times article is carrying an airsoft gun.

(Ukie ladies are pretty hot, but in my experience also fucking crazy.)

[The Sybian]

and the beauty queen in that India Times article is carrying an airsoft gun.

The Ukranian people have been masterful in their social media posts. My wife is convinced a lot of the viral posts are staged or fake, but either way, they are working. I did see the beauty queen posted that she pose for pics with an airsoft gun to inspire others. Again, it's working, because there are pictures of her everywhere with articles or posts showing how even a beauty queen is taking up arms.


And how did I forget about former Ukranian Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko?

[pruitt2]

and the beauty queen in that India Times article is carrying an airsoft gun.

The Ukranian people have been masterful in their social media posts. My wife is convinced a lot of the viral posts are staged or fake, but either way, they are working. I did see the beauty queen posted that she pose for pics with an airsoft gun to inspire others. Again, it's working, because there are pictures of her everywhere with articles or posts showing how even a beauty queen is taking up arms.


And how did I forget about former Ukranian Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko?

A gorgeous woman with a braid like fresh challah.

I'm in love.

[Ryan]

Well then go talk to her!


Oh sorry I thought you said Lviv

[govmentchedda]

Well done

[pruitt2]

я сміявся!

[degenerasian]

Someday there's going to be a movie made about this war, and there's going to be some real funny moments.

[pruitt2]

The US has an embarassing history of some of their citizens ignoring and excusing atrocious behavior by Russian/Soviet leadership. Whether it's John Reed during the revolution, American socialist throughout the 20th century, or anti-Hillary/libertarian/Republican trolls today, they got so caught up in their ideology or being against something, they downplayed the USSR's intention and attempts for full global revolution, Russia always trying to expand its borders, and the murder of millions and millions of their own people and ethnic minorities. It's such an attrocious history, and it's unfortunate it can't be identified as such without hearing whataboutism.

The old term still applies - you could call Fox News and others "Useful idiots"

[degenerasian]

It's "mud season" or "rasputitsa" in Ukraine. That in part explains why Russian vehicles need to use main roads to move around. If you try other roads, things can start looking like this.