Gay Marriage

P.D.X. · Post by **P.D.X.** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 1:13 pm

Steve of phpBB wrote:
The Sybian wrote:Conservatives, especially Scalia, believe in States Rights. They believe the States should make these decisions, not the Federal government and certainly not the Courts.
At least, that's what they claim. They have no problem disregarding states' rights when the states are doing something they don't like.

Roberts' dissent probably makes the best "conservative" case against requiring states to allow and recognize gay marriage. Basically, he says that marriage has always been one man and one woman, and that courts need to be really really careful in finding additional "fundamental rights" protected by the Due Process Clause. He refers to Dred Scott and Lochner v New York as examples of judicial overreach in finding fundamental rights. He also points out that if the man-woman aspect of marriage cannot be upheld despite millennia of existence, then the "two persons" aspect also cannot. If states have to recognize gay marriages, they also would have to recognize polygamous marriages..

The "two persons" argument only holds up when you ignore the fact that polygamous marriage has existed as long as recorded human history.

howard · Post by **howard** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 1:50 pm

Pentz linked to Andrew Sullivan on the twit:

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2015/06/ ... omplished/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Money quote:

I recall all this now simply to rebut the entire line of being “on the right side of history.” History does not have such straight lines. Movements do not move relentlessly forward; progress comes and, just as swiftly, goes. For many years, it felt like one step forward, two steps back. History is a miasma of contingency, and courage, and conviction, and chance.

Giff · Post by **Giff** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 2:39 pm

Gunpowder wrote:Well they'd think that the state's should allow it in that case. I don't understand why you are only cool with government oppression if it comes from a state.

And only the state. Our amazing governor has signed into law bills that don't allow cities to sue companies due to damages from fracking, among other things.

DaveInSeattle · Post by **DaveInSeattle** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:48 pm

Ted Cruz is reacting in his most sober and well-reasoned way, as expected:

Ted Cruz on Hannity's radio show wrote:"The darkest 24 hours in our nation's history"

Yep...not 9/11...not Pearl Harbor...not JFK assassination...not Lincoln's assassination...not Ft Sumter...but gay marriage being legalized.

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 4:21 pm

DaveInSeattle wrote:Ted Cruz is reacting in his most sober and well-reasoned way, as expected:

Ted Cruz on Hannity's radio show wrote:"The darkest 24 hours in our nation's history"
Yep...not 9/11...not Pearl Harbor...not JFK assassination...not Lincoln's assassination...not Ft Sumter...but gay marriage being legalized.

Christianity was just criminalized by the Supreme Court! Jesus would totally have been against government subsidised healthcare. Giving more people access to health care would have totally cut into his miracle cure business, thus His churches taking a hit at the collection plates. Republican Jesus was a gun toting capitalist who believed if someone didn't pick themselves up by their bootstraps, you should kick them while they are down.

I can't wait to listen to clips of Right Wingnuts bemoaning the death of America. OTOH, I saw an interview of my girl SE Cupp. She was barely able to speak because she was weeping with joy. She was saying the dinosaurs in her beloved GOP need to accept the times have changed, and their anti-gay marriage views have no future. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a complete act. Her claim to fame is being a hardcore Right Wing Atheist. Most of her religious-based arguments show she can't grasp a world view absent of the Judeo-Christian God, so she is completely full of shit. I still want to fuck her, though.

Rush2112 · Post by **Rush2112** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 4:24 pm

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 4:54 pm

On the trivial side, but it's a pretty interesting night for a big sports thing between American women and Chinese women

GoodKarma · Post by **GoodKarma** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 5:09 pm

I thought Kennedy's majority opinion summed it up nicely:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/won ... er-forget/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I read it as there is a larger, more important view to take regarding this issue...it's time to stop pussyfooting around and make this right.

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Fri Jun 26, 2015 8:31 pm

Rush2112 wrote:

Jebus, I listened to it on my phone without looking. She looks horrible! Hate boner gone... I may need to go back to my fantasy of donkey punching Michelle Malkin.

howard · Post by **howard** » Mon Jun 29, 2015 7:43 pm

Nation’s Homophobic Bigots Pack It In
‘Rules Are Rules,’ Say Those With Deeply Ingrained Prejudices

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 9:14 am

This is just like the greatest fucking thing ever.

Post by **Shirley** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 9:22 am

I honestly didn't get the message of that video. I mean, seeing who it was from, I could infer a message, but the actual content was completely vague and meaningless.

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 9:43 am

Really? That's crazy. Watch it again.

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 12:27 pm

Shirley wrote:I honestly didn't get the message of that video. I mean, seeing who it was from, I could infer a message, but the actual content was completely vague and meaningless.

See, now Christians are persecuted for admitting their beliefs. Christians now need to live in the closet because they are the target of hate, violence and denial of Rights because of who they are. Christian is the new Gay. Only less fabulous.

Gunpowder · Post by **Gunpowder** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 12:36 pm

JFC people. Someone should re-do that video with slaveowners.

Gunpowder · Post by **Gunpowder** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 12:41 pm

I really am getting tired of Christians telling me how hard it is to be a white Christian because I guess sometimes people tell you to fuck off on Facebook. And you can't even say Merry Christmas anymore. Well you can, whenever you want, to anyone, but you still like, can't, you know?

Gunpowder · Post by **Gunpowder** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 12:42 pm

I also don't get why blacks hate gays so much. I mean I understand the religious aspect but for a group that knows what discrimination is like, they really hate them some gays.

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 12:43 pm

Gunpowder wrote:JFC people. Someone should re-do that video with slaveowners.

Gunpowder · Post by **Gunpowder** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 12:45 pm

The internet is so quick

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 12:46 pm

Gunpowder wrote:I also don't get why blacks hate gays so much. I mean I understand the religious aspect but for a group that knows what discrimination is like, they really hate them some gays.

How can gays be Catholic? How can women be republicans? Cognitive dissonance is a hell of a drug.

Gunpowder · Post by **Gunpowder** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:00 pm

I just love that the same book of the Bible that condemns homosexuality also says that you need to love and accept all foreigners living in your land.

"Why don't these lazy poors go and get jobs???" - Jesus Christ

sancarlos · Post by **sancarlos** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 2:15 pm

Jerloma wrote:
Gunpowder wrote:I also don't get why blacks hate gays so much. I mean I understand the religious aspect but for a group that knows what discrimination is like, they really hate them some gays.
How can gays be Catholic? How can women be republicans? Cognitive dissonance is a hell of a drug.

And, did you know, the Mormons are converting tons of black people in Africa and South America? (cue song from The Book of Mormon.)

As far as the Catholic thing, I think a lot of it is cultural. Personally, I still consider myself a Catholic even though I disagree with a whole lot of the things they tell me. Yes, cognitive dissonance, I guess. Though I think it would be harder if I was gay.

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 2:23 pm

Catholic is the new Jewish.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:04 pm

Gunpowder wrote:"Why don't these lazy poors go and get jobs???" - Jesus Christ

SportsDoc · Post by **SportsDoc** » Wed Jul 01, 2015 3:27 pm

I have stayed out of the fray about the SCOTUS decision, and I will, for the most part, continue to do so.

I would like to say some of the portrayals here do show a lack of tolerance for others beliefs, which I believe, as long as not actually harmful, should be respected. Yes, some religious beliefs are over the top, and may be deemed harmful, but many are well thought out and reasoned by honorable people who's beliefs just are different than yours. I believe those should be respected, not agreed with, but respected.

I am a Christian. I have said here before that my Faith is personal and between me and my God. What my church may declare is just, in my opinion, the declaration of the current leadership, who are fallible (as we all are), so I never take them at face value, but as the current leaderships perspective. I feel no obligation to follow those if they interfere with my relationship with God. I have voiced my opinion on Gay marriage and Gay Pastors within my church. I am in the minority. But we have had good quality discussion about it, and I respect those who disagree with me on this because I know they are good people, just as I hope they respect me.

I have no problem with Gay marriage. It's certainly not for me personally, but, who knows, some day it may be for a child or grandchild of mine, and I will respect that, and I will be fine with that. In my dental practice, when a prospective patient calls, we don't ask what their ethnicity or sexual preferences are. We treat all people who enter our practice and are good patients (show up on time, pay their bills, etc.).

I do worry that very good people who do disagree strongly for their particular religious beliefs are going to be looked upon as evil when they are not. Some may lose their jobs or leave their jobs because of their beliefs. That is unfortunate, but I suspect it will happen. I know I am a very small minority of those on this forum, but I also know that over the years I have come to know some very good people here. I just ask that you remember sometimes there are also very good people on the other side of your beliefs.

Rex · Post by **Rex** » Wed Jul 01, 2015 3:39 pm

I've been to church a lot over the years (Catholic), more so as a kid than now, and I can't remember gays ever being discussed one way or the other. I don't know, maybe it's different now, or maybe I just wasn't engaging on the level that other people engage with their churches.

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Wed Jul 01, 2015 3:46 pm

I do worry that very good people who do disagree strongly for their particular religious beliefs are going to be looked upon as evil when they are not. Some may lose their jobs or leave their jobs because of their beliefs. That is unfortunate, but I suspect it will happen. I know I am a very small minority of those on this forum, but I also know that over the years I have come to know some very good people here. I just ask that you remember sometimes there are also very good people on the other side of your beliefs.

This is a great point and it's one that most people who are non-believers or progressive Christians lose sight of. We offer children this worldview at a very young age. Give them this book and tell them it's a moral guide...the greatest moral guide we have. Yet it has some really questionable moral injunctions throughout it. We put them in certain churches that tell them what to think about certain things that are more of a reflection of an ancient and somewhat barbaric culture. People can't choose their experiences. Our brains are machines that observe reality and make conclusions about it based off of our experiences.

So what happens when those children turn into adults and don't magically adopt a progressive 21st century worldview and aren't able to just ignore the shit they've been taught their whole life? We call them bigots. That's bullshit. Yes, there are charlatans that probably use religion to advance their bigoted views, but most of these fundamentalist Christians aren't the enemy. If anything, they're victims as well.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Wed Jul 01, 2015 4:27 pm

SportsDoc wrote:I have no problem with Gay marriage. It's certainly not for me personally, but, who knows, some day it may be for a child or grandchild of mine, and I will respect that, and I will be fine with that.

The people who are staunchly against it until a child or grandchild ends up gay, then they turn around, infuriate me like no other type of person.

howard · Post by **howard** » Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:03 pm

mister d wrote:The people who are staunchly against it until a child or grandchild ends up gay, then they turn around, infuriate me like no other type of person.

At least he's consistent. He was against marching to Baghdad to force regime change until he was in favor of it.

DC47 · Post by **DC47** » Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:25 pm

I have long wondered if there are gay people who have straight kids, or lesbians with sons, who have to overcome something of a chip on their shoulders. I know a lesbian who became the mother of three, who fortunately were all daughters. Gigantic chip, though perhaps well-deserved due to her individual circumstances.

Giff · Post by **Giff** » Thu Jul 02, 2015 11:52 am

SportsDoc wrote:I have stayed out of the fray about the SCOTUS decision, and I will, for the most part, continue to do so.

I would like to say some of the portrayals here do show a lack of tolerance for others beliefs, which I believe, as long as not actually harmful, should be respected. Yes, some religious beliefs are over the top, and may be deemed harmful, but many are well thought out and reasoned by honorable people who's beliefs just are different than yours. I believe those should be respected, not agreed with, but respected.

I am a Christian. I have said here before that my Faith is personal and between me and my God. What my church may declare is just, in my opinion, the declaration of the current leadership, who are fallible (as we all are), so I never take them at face value, but as the current leaderships perspective. I feel no obligation to follow those if they interfere with my relationship with God. I have voiced my opinion on Gay marriage and Gay Pastors within my church. I am in the minority. But we have had good quality discussion about it, and I respect those who disagree with me on this because I know they are good people, just as I hope they respect me.

I have no problem with Gay marriage. It's certainly not for me personally, but, who knows, some day it may be for a child or grandchild of mine, and I will respect that, and I will be fine with that. In my dental practice, when a prospective patient calls, we don't ask what their ethnicity or sexual preferences are. We treat all people who enter our practice and are good patients (show up on time, pay their bills, etc.).

I do worry that very good people who do disagree strongly for their particular religious beliefs are going to be looked upon as evil when they are not. Some may lose their jobs or leave their jobs because of their beliefs. That is unfortunate, but I suspect it will happen. I know I am a very small minority of those on this forum, but I also know that over the years I have come to know some very good people here. I just ask that you remember sometimes there are also very good people on the other side of your beliefs.

Can I call them hypocrites? I certainly don't think they're all bigots (the vast majority of my family don't agree with gay marriage and are staunch conservatives), but I don't understand the opinion that gay people cannot marry because homosexuality is a sin, yet they have no problem at all allowing people who violate any or all of the 10 commandments tie the knot as long as it's with someone of the opposite sex.

Post by **brian** » Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:00 pm

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:05 pm

SportsDoc wrote:
I have no problem with Gay marriage. It's certainly not for me personally, but, who knows, some day it may be for a child or grandchild of mine, and I will respect that, and I will be fine with that.

I do worry that very good people who do disagree strongly for their particular religious beliefs are going to be looked upon as evil when they are not. Some may lose their jobs or leave their jobs because of their beliefs. That is unfortunate, but I suspect it will happen. I know I am a very small minority of those on this forum, but I also know that over the years I have come to know some very good people here. I just ask that you remember sometimes there are also very good people on the other side of your beliefs.

Thanks for chiming in, we don't have nearly enough variety of opinions here, and I love being able to discuss a different view in a reasonable manner. Very hard to find. I completely respect your view. Gay marriage isn't for me either, but I will fight for the rights of those who do want to marry a person of the same sex. Similarly, religion isn't for me, but I will fight for the rights of others to freely practice their religions.

Where I do have a problem, is with the extremely vocal minority of Christians who believe they are oppressed when Christianity is treated equally to all other religions. Enforcing religious beliefs onto everyone is a very dangerous path, and there is an arrogance in believing that everyone must follow your religious belief (not aimed at SportsDoc, but the rabid anti-gay protesters). Supporting gay marriage is in no way an attack on Christianity, it is advancing Civil Rights of a minority group that faces discrimination. I will never understand the argument that allowing two men the benefits of a civil marriage in any way attacks Christianity. No church is forced to accept the Holy Matrimony of a gay marriage. No Christians are forced to violate their beliefs. I just don't understand why they think they have the right to codify their religious beliefs into law, and force the rest of us to live under their interpretation of a an ancient book. And a million people who study the Bible will have a million variations of understanding it. As SportsDoc said, a person's relationship to God is personal. I won't interfere with anyone's relationship with God, and they shouldn't use their relationship with God to interfere with my life.

Politicians like Ted Cruz, Mike Huckabee and many others are setting a dangerous battle line where one doesn't exist. There is no "War on Christianity." Nobody is forbidden from practicing or believing in any way. Christianity is a protected class like all religions, so if anyone does lose their job or is discriminated against for being Christian, they have the same systemic protection as any other protected class. Unfortunately, homosexuality is not a protected class yet in most states, so they don't have that protection.

I, and I think most rational pro-gay rights people, believe the majority of Christians who believe homosexuality is a sin are good people. I don't think someone is a bigot for thinking homosexuality is a sin, but I do think they are a bigot if they discriminate against gays or spout hateful language at them.

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:21 pm

I don't think someone is a bigot for thinking homosexuality is a sin, but I do think they are a bigot if they discriminate against gays or spout hateful language at them.

Do you think someone is a bigot for wanting gays to be discriminated against?

The Sybian · Post by **The Sybian** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 3:23 pm

Jerloma wrote:
I don't think someone is a bigot for thinking homosexuality is a sin, but I do think they are a bigot if they discriminate against gays or spout hateful language at them.
Do you think someone is a bigot for wanting gays to be discriminated against?

Yes. Believing it is a sin is different than believing it should be illegal. Coveting your neighbors wife is a sin, but I don't think many Christians want the government prohibiting impure thoughts.

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 3:38 pm

Just seems too easy to me.

On another note, at a Senate hearing today regarding the SC gov't endorsing the Confederate flag, this guy just said fuck it and went on an awesome rant about gay marriage.

Pruitt · Post by **Pruitt** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 3:59 pm

So apparently buddy is against the constitution.

Nice.

On a funnier note, a gay friend of mine hates gay marriages. He said that he is being invited to tons of them, and every time an invitation arrives, it's like opening an invoice.

Gunpowder · Post by **Gunpowder** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 4:24 pm

The Devil is such a fag if this is all his doing.

P.D.X. · Post by **P.D.X.** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 4:49 pm

Pruitt wrote:He said that he is being invited to tons of them, and every time an invitation arrives, it's like opening an invoice.

Don't get me started. There's no reason in the world that a couple who nets 4x as much as me needs me to get them a fucking blender.

And baby showers? The worst. "Help us fund our life decisions!"

I'm out.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Mon Jul 06, 2015 5:53 pm

Yeah, you're out. Out of money!!!