Steve of phpBB wrote:Degen, do you think the Dems are currently "relying on race to win elections"? Can you give examples of what you're thinking about?
For example, it was just reported that John Kelly, Trump's chief of staff, is pressuring DHS to expel something like 60,000 Hondurans and Nicaraguans who were allowed to come to (or stay in?) the US after a Hurricane in 1998.
If the Dems point out how horrible this is, is that identity politics or relying on race?
If they point this out in context of brutal ICE tactics and Trump's decision to revoke protections for Dreamers, does that make it identity politics in your view?
Relying on race to win elections. Catering to minority groups at the expense of majority groups (instead of treating them on equal ground)
1. By abandoning rural areas. Most minorities live in urban areas so money and policies is concentrated there 2. By abandoning religion. Catholicism and Christianity are still important in America 3. Immigration, America is still a country, with borders (DACA was definitely instituted to win 2016 votes, maybe they could not vote but they were on the campaign trail))
For your 2nd point, immigration is a tough issue because the US has no immigration policy. It has no path to citizenship like in Canada. DACA was really an illegal temporary solution. Trump is throwing it back to congress to get an immigration plan. Something like the Bush-Reid in 2007. The Democrats should point out how horrible the policy is (not because they're poor Hondurans who have been here 20 years). Are Democrats interested in drafting a path to citizenship law? Are they interested in an immigrant point system to get a green card? DACA was a pandering solution (sorry to say)
Again, though, examples?
What are you referring to when you say that Democrats "abandoned" rural areas and religion?
What is your evidence that DACA was instituted to win 2016 votes, instead of instituted because it was the right thing to do for hundreds of thousands of people who lived basically their entire lives in the US, did nothing wrong, and are as American as I am?
Rural: Democrats don't even run candidates in some rural areas anymore. Nationally they are not campaigning there. Then when Trump wins 65% of the rural vote, those people are called stupid. Rural areas have specific needs like small farms being swallowed up by bigger farms, or bad trade agreements, or specialized skills on the farm. Not every kid can leave the small town farm to go to college (even if it's free). Globalization isn't rah rah great for everyone. One specific issue is broadband in rural areas. Democrats proposed a 40 billion dollar broadband deal last month. They are learning because where was this in 2016? Democrats need to reconnect. They need to listen.
Religion: One could say that Liberalism and Religion don't go together and this is becoming the Democrats problem. The party has moved left on key social issues — abortion, contraceptives, religious liberty, and marriage. Fought within the realm of Obamacare amongst other places. 80% of evangelicals voted for Trump. Is this just a lost cause of can the Democrats reach out to evangelicals somehow. Religious people aren't running Democratic campaigns anymore.
DACA: I don't think it's the right thing to do. They aren't American as you are. You're American! Laws are laws. I know Americans are trying to do the right thing but this grey area it becomes very difficult. I don't want to deport them. I want to find a solution. It just amazes me that America cannot figure out an immigration policy. A path to citizenship. There's no way in any country an illegal would be living there 20 years and having children going to public schools without a path to citizenship for them or their children.
Kung Fu movies are like porn. There's 1 on 1, then 2 on 1, then a group scene..
Again, though. Examples. It seems like you are just repeating stereotypes.
Take religion. Yes, the Democrats are protecting a woman's right to reproductive choice, and everyone's right to marry who they love and worship how they want or don't want. Are you really taking that to mean that the Democrats are abandoning religion? If so, what do you think the Democrats should do? Are you saying they should change their position on abortion or birth control or gay marriage?
And if someone has grown up in the US, lives in the US, and considers himself or herself to be an American, then he or she is an American. The location of the hospital where he or she was born, or where he or she lived before coming to the US as a three-year-old, is irrelevant.
Anyway, you say that you don't want to deport DACA kids, and you want them to have a path to citizenship. Wasn't the whole point of DACA to declare that these folks would not be deported, so as to allow the Congress to come up with a path to citizenship?
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
Steve of phpBB wrote:Again, though. Examples. It seems like you are just repeating stereotypes.
Take religion. Yes, the Democrats are protecting a woman's right to reproductive choice, and everyone's right to marry who they love and worship how they want or don't want. Are you really taking that to mean that the Democrats are abandoning religion? If so, what do you think the Democrats should do? Are you saying they should change their position on abortion or birth control or gay marriage?
And if someone has grown up in the US, lives in the US, and considers himself or herself to be an American, then he or she is an American. The location of the hospital where he or she was born, or where he or she lived before coming to the US as a three-year-old, is irrelevant.
Anyway, you say that you don't want to deport DACA kids, and you want them to have a path to citizenship. Wasn't the whole point of DACA to declare that these folks would not be deported, so as to allow the Congress to come up with a path to citizenship?
i don't believe all of religion is anti-gay marriage or anti-abortion. Even in religion there are many sects (progressives, moderates, extremes etcc.. Democrats could listen and embrace more moderate religious leaders. I'm not familiar with Christianity so I may be out to lunch here.
The point of DACA was a temporary stay AND equal rights (SIN number, jobs, college etc....). Not a path to citizenship. I will disagree with you that where a person is from is irrelevant. That's what countries are. Otherwise, we'd be stateless.
Kung Fu movies are like porn. There's 1 on 1, then 2 on 1, then a group scene..
degenerasian wrote:I will disagree with you that where a person is from is irrelevant. That's what countries are. Otherwise, we'd be stateless.
As far as I'm concerned, someone who came here as a little kid and lived in the United States for 15-20 years is from the United States. The US is the only home that person has ever known.
And his one problem is he didn’t go to Russia that night because he had extracurricular activities, and they froze to death.
mister d wrote:Which would ... be like the best thing that could happen to mankind?
Yeah, nationalism and religion are pretty much the two worst forces for evil in the world. Get rid of those two and you're 90 percent of the way to having a world worth living in.
degenerasian wrote:I will disagree with you that where a person is from is irrelevant. That's what countries are. Otherwise, we'd be stateless.
As far as I'm concerned, someone who came here as a little kid and lived in the United States for 15-20 years is from the United States. The US is the only home that person has ever known.
Yes. The US then needs to make a law that has a process and waiting list for green cards. Or if you have lived here 10 years and not broken any laws you get a green card. Whatever the law is, there needs to be one. It can't carry on for decades like it is now. DACA is so weird, it's just an arbitrarily chosen number (under 31 on June 2012). One day over and you get nothing.
By making law, yes some people might get left out and deported. Those stories will be front and center. That's the price of saving the majority of undocumented immigrants.
Or let's not have states or borders, that's ok too!
Kung Fu movies are like porn. There's 1 on 1, then 2 on 1, then a group scene..
FWIW, in my neighborhood the Doug Jones signs outnumber the Moore ones by almost 10:1. I live right next to the local university, so tend liberal, but it's also a historic district with lots of wealthy older folks as well. In a broader sense through my town and the neighboring town that I work in, the ratio is still closer to 5:1. For comparison, last year I saw almost zero Hillary signs.
Not in the minds of people that make arguments like this guy did for Moore.
I know there are only two choices, but the fact that Moore WILL get at least 45% of the vote says all you need to know about Alabama. (Apologies to anyone on here who has ties to that state - clearly you are in the minority of people from the Yellowhammer State who know that Jesus didn't ride a dinosaur)
"beautiful, with an exotic-yet-familiar facial structure and an arresting gaze."
Square Rob wrote:FWIW, in my neighborhood the Doug Jones signs outnumber the Moore ones by almost 10:1. I live right next to the local university, so tend liberal, but it's also a historic district with lots of wealthy older folks as well. In a broader sense through my town and the neighboring town that I work in, the ratio is still closer to 5:1. For comparison, last year I saw almost zero Hillary signs.
So, your sense is that he has a chance? I wonder what it is like out in the country where they might say, "What's the big deal about what he did?"
Square Rob wrote:FWIW, in my neighborhood the Doug Jones signs outnumber the Moore ones by almost 10:1. I live right next to the local university, so tend liberal, but it's also a historic district with lots of wealthy older folks as well. In a broader sense through my town and the neighboring town that I work in, the ratio is still closer to 5:1. For comparison, last year I saw almost zero Hillary signs.
So, your sense is that he has a chance? I wonder what it is like out in the country where they might say, "What's the big deal about what he did?"
He has a chance, but it's still slim. I would guess 30%. The shit thing is, I'm worried this scandal will actually help the GOP gotv effort as 'oh shit he might lose' logic. It's a fucked up state and a fucked up state of affairs.
Right now, you have a choice between two men. One of those men is most famous for courageously prosecuting the domestic terrorists who bombed a church and killed four girls. The other is most famous for being kicked off the Supreme Court twice for refusing to follow the law and for allegedly sexually assaulting a 14-year-old.
You’re doing Cirque du Soleil-level contortions to justify voting for the latter.
If he wins and the GOP actually seats him the campaign ads everywhere else in the country will be devastating. “The Republican Party endorses prdophilia.”
Nonlinear FC wrote:Not sure where to ask this, but a quote in a story got me thinking about this:
Her son, now a sophomore in college, did not attend the news conference. Ms. Unruh said they decided to go public now because the climate had changed after accusations of sexual assault and harassment against Harvey Weinstein and because victims of sexual misconduct were no longer being blamed.
I give a LOT of credit to the #metoo movement.
But, I got to thinking... Did maybe the outrage over "grab her pussy" set the stage for this? I'm probably reaching a little, but I know a LOT of women that were really distraught that a guy that said this and has been accused of doing exactly that by multiple women won the election.
I'm too drunk, and there are too many arguments to make in this thread, so I'll stick to Heather Unruh. She was my biggest HS crush. Young reporter starting out in Binghamton on a local news channel. She didn't last long in Binghamton, as she was smoking hot and talented. Bizarre to see her name pop up in news feeds 25 years later. My mother used to tease me, because she was a Weight Watchers instructor, and Unruh was in one of her classes and came in workout attire.
An honest to God cult of personality - formed around a failed steak salesman.
-Pruitt
I think the issue with Degen's questions he raises is he gives credence to the the FoxNews narrative of "Liberals believe..." Any time Fox or RW pundits argue against a Liberal belief, 99% of the time, no Liberal actually believes whatever they argue against. Or they find some mentally unstable college freshman, and Tucker Carlson invites her on to berate her for 20 minutes, while very other Fox pundit quotes her lunacy as commonly accepted Liberal doctrine.
An honest to God cult of personality - formed around a failed steak salesman.
-Pruitt
The Sybian wrote:I think the issue with Degen's questions he raises is he gives credence to the the FoxNews narrative of "Liberals believe..." Any time Fox or RW pundits argue against a Liberal belief, 99% of the time, no Liberal actually believes whatever they argue against. Or they find some mentally unstable college freshman, and Tucker Carlson invites her on to berate her for 20 minutes, while very other Fox pundit quotes her lunacy as commonly accepted Liberal doctrine.
The Sybian wrote:I think the issue with Degen's questions he raises is he gives credence to the the FoxNews narrative of "Liberals believe..." Any time Fox or RW pundits argue against a Liberal belief, 99% of the time, no Liberal actually believes whatever they argue against. Or they find some mentally unstable college freshman, and Tucker Carlson invites her on to berate her for 20 minutes, while very other Fox pundit quotes her lunacy as commonly accepted Liberal doctrine.
i.e. Straw man.
Why say in two words what I could say in an entire paragraph?
In other news, this is what the GOP are left with in defending Roy Moore.
I mean, am I as a Hannity hater supposed to get mad at this? These people are fucking stupid.
One positive you can take from all this is that America is a land where even amoral, hate-filled cro-magnons can afford one of them fancy coffee-ing machines.
Otherwise, that is one of the more depressing things I have seen in a while. Pro-pedophilia all the way folks.
"beautiful, with an exotic-yet-familiar facial structure and an arresting gaze."
I mean, am I as a Hannity hater supposed to get mad at this? These people are fucking stupid.
One positive you can take from all this is that America is a land where even amoral, hate-filled cro-magnons can afford one of them fancy coffee-ing machines.
Otherwise, that is one of the more depressing things I have seen in a while. Pro-pedophilia all the way folks.
This is my semi-regular reminder that Trump voters had higher average incomes than Clinton voters. As tempting as it might be to confine Trumpism to the poor or uneducated, that's just not the case. There are plenty of wealthy and socially influential people in Hannity's audience. In fact, I'd imagine anyone actually destroying their Keurig is doing that because they can easily afford a replacement coffee maker.
I'd feel better if they would stop protesting shit I don't already dislike. Next they're going to start a Craft Beer for Conservatives movement or something and ruin that for me.
Johnnie wrote: ↑Sat Sep 10, 2022 8:13 pmOh shit, you just reminded me about toilet paper.
Square Rob wrote:FWIW, in my neighborhood the Doug Jones signs outnumber the Moore ones by almost 10:1. I live right next to the local university, so tend liberal, but it's also a historic district with lots of wealthy older folks as well. In a broader sense through my town and the neighboring town that I work in, the ratio is still closer to 5:1. For comparison, last year I saw almost zero Hillary signs.
During the 2016 election, I was on a college visit for my daughter at UNC-Wilmington. We were in the area for 3 or 4 days. We drove around a lot. I saw 3 Hillary signs. Thousands of Trump signs.
I had a really bad feeling driving home. Really bad.
You can lead a horse to fish, but you can't fish out a horse.
Nonlinear FC wrote:There's a joke about Tiki torches and Keurig machines as symbols of the alt-right... I just don't have it in me on a Monday morning.
I enjoyed the quip I saw (paraphrasing here, obviously) noting that destroying Keurig machines was the first time Trump/conservatives had done something good for the environment.
“The running, the jumping... a celebration of life.”
Can't remove him from the ballot. It's actually pretty surprising McConnell and McCain and a couple of others would have the spine to suggest Moore should bow out because without some kind of massive write-in campaign for someone else it would mean losing the election.
