Jerloma wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 4:00 pm
Just out of curiosity, why is she devastated? Does she think she's going to be a less moral person for it or does she think she's going to suffer consequences posthumously?
She believes and wanted them to believe, too. The kid made clear she doesn't so my wife feels she let her down in some way.
I think you should just ask her then what she thinks the consequences are to "letting her down"? I mean it has to be that she thinks she won't have as fulfilling a life, or she'll adopt questionable values without a fear of g-d, or something to do with an after life. Besides that, there's nothing to be remotely worried about; let alone devastated.
If it's one of the first two, you can assure her that you know tons of atheists who lead moral, happy, fulfilling lives. If it's the latter, well the kid can't control what conclusions she comes to. Any deity that would create you in such a way that you're incapable of believing in it and then punishes you for it is not one worth worshiping anyway.
rass wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 4:16 pm
She has been a CCD aide for the kid's class since third grade, so my wife will be attending the ceremony alone on Thursday.
This last sentence got me, that's rough. In one way, I'd feel the need to tell my kid to suck it up for one night to make their mother happy, but in another way, going through with a confirmation when you don't believe is kind of the ultimate lie on the floor of the Church. It's not like pretending to like a movie and sitting through it for 2 hours.
I've been torn listening to my kids bicker over whether God exists. I feel I let them down by not providing them a basis for understanding religion. My son went down some online rabbit holes researching religions, which is a scary thought, but he came away with some really well-reasoned thoughts on why he doesn't believe in God. I had to undo years of "education" to come to the same conclusions. My daughter says she believes in God, but doesn't understand anything about organized religion. I stopped my son from arguing that God isn't real, because I think she needs to make her own conclusions when she is old enough to understand. Believing in God is great if it gives someone comfort and they don't throw all their money to a huckster preacher or start a war over it.
Hard disagree on the bolded point. The child gains maturity in understanding the bigger picture is keeping her mother's faith restored. To hell with your own faith. And yeah, it is a movie. This ultimate lie crap is a bad rabbit hole to go down, too.
rass wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 4:16 pm
She has been a CCD aide for the kid's class since third grade, so my wife will be attending the ceremony alone on Thursday.
This last sentence got me, that's rough. In one way, I'd feel the need to tell my kid to suck it up for one night to make their mother happy, but in another way, going through with a confirmation when you don't believe is kind of the ultimate lie on the floor of the Church. It's not like pretending to like a movie and sitting through it for 2 hours.
I've been torn listening to my kids bicker over whether God exists. I feel I let them down by not providing them a basis for understanding religion. My son went down some online rabbit holes researching religions, which is a scary thought, but he came away with some really well-reasoned thoughts on why he doesn't believe in God. I had to undo years of "education" to come to the same conclusions. My daughter says she believes in God, but doesn't understand anything about organized religion. I stopped my son from arguing that God isn't real, because I think she needs to make her own conclusions when she is old enough to understand. Believing in God is great if it gives someone comfort and they don't throw all their money to a huckster preacher or start a war over it.
Hard disagree on the bolded point. The child gains maturity in understanding the bigger picture is keeping her mother's faith restored. To hell with your own faith. And yeah, it is a movie. This ultimate lie crap is a bad rabbit hole to go down, too.
That's the church's rule...not Syb's.
Sorry I didn't make that clear. I'm all too aware where that crap starts.
Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity
Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 5:25 pm
by Jerloma
Right, but that's the thing. If you're a Catholic, asking your kid to make her confirmation if she doesn't believe in god is asking her to commit a grave sin against the church...and now you're complicit in that.
Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity
Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 5:52 pm
by sancarlos
Rass, we went through that several years ago. My daughter was always pretty cynical about religion and Catholicism. It was fine with my wife and me when she balked at the idea of confirmation. (She did do first communion and first confession, earlier.) I had asked her if she was interested, but we never pushed her. But, my mother had her nose pretty far out of joint about her not getting confirmed. She certainly thought it was my wife's and my duty to force it on the kid. She mostly kept her mouth shut but (a bit humorously), my mother told me she blamed my wife more than me because she "knew" that deep down, I was still a good Catholic boy. The only way my wife knew that was when I told her.
Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity
Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 6:33 pm
by Pruitt
Man, being a parent is hard, hard work.
Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity
Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 6:50 pm
by EnochRoot
Jerloma wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 5:25 pm
Right, but that's the thing. If you're a Catholic, asking your kid to make her confirmation if she doesn't believe in god is asking her to commit a grave sin against the church...and now you're complicit in that.
Complicit to whom? Being confirmed is a graduation of sorts from CCD. It's crap that you had to do because your mother insisted on it.
Damn - this reminds me of when I was confirmed.
"Dad, do I still have to go to church after I get confirmed?"
"That's between you and your mother, but if I were you, I'd just gradually stop going..."
Jerloma wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 5:25 pm
Right, but that's the thing. If you're a Catholic, asking your kid to make her confirmation if she doesn't believe in god is asking her to commit a grave sin against the church...and now you're complicit in that.
Complicit to whom? Being confirmed is a graduation of sorts from CCD. It's crap that you had to do because your mother insisted on it.
Damn - this reminds me of when I was confirmed.
"Dad, do I still have to go to church after I get confirmed?"
"That's between you and your mother, but if I were you, I'd just gradually stop going..."
Part of the reason my daughter didn't want to be confirmed is that she had a bad experience in CCD (cliquey, nasty little girls and teachers who did nothing about it) and, as a result, my wife yanked her out of CCD. So, no CCD "graduation", and thus she had no desire to go through confirmation prep (not that she possessed the religious inclination, anyway.).
Compare that to my own upbringing where the idea of not going to Mass or all the connected stuff was not ever even on the table. My first big rebellion with my folks was over not wanting to attend Mass. I gave in, and even still go when I visit my parents, just to keep the peace.
Jerloma wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 5:25 pm
Right, but that's the thing. If you're a Catholic, asking your kid to make her confirmation if she doesn't believe in god is asking her to commit a grave sin against the church...and now you're complicit in that.
Complicit to whom? Being confirmed is a graduation of sorts from CCD. It's crap that you had to do because your mother insisted on it.
Damn - this reminds me of when I was confirmed.
"Dad, do I still have to go to church after I get confirmed?"
"That's between you and your mother, but if I were you, I'd just gradually stop going..."
You have to look at it from the POV of a Catholic that actually grants moral authority to their church.
Catholics believe the Sacrament of Confirmation is the supernatural equivalent of the growth process on the natural level. It builds on what was begun in Baptism and what was nourished in Holy Eucharist. It completes the process of initiation into the Christian community, and it matures the soul for the work ahead.
So what occurs during a Catholic Confirmation? The Holy Spirit is first introduced to a Catholic the day that she’s baptized, because the entire Holy Trinity — Father, Son, and Holy Spirit — are invoked at the ceremony. During Confirmation, God the Holy Spirit comes upon the person, accompanied by God the Father and God the Son, just as he did at Pentecost.
This sacrament is called Confirmation because the faith given in Baptism is now confirmed and made strong. Sometimes, those who benefit from Confirmation are referred to as soldiers of Christ. This isn’t a military designation but a spiritual duty to fight the war between good and evil, light and darkness — a war between the human race and all the powers of hell.
Confirmation means accepting responsibility for your faith and destiny. Childhood is a time when you’re told what to do, and you react positively to reward and negatively to punishment. Adulthood, even young adulthood, means that you must do what’s right on your own, not for the recognition or reward but merely because it’s the right thing to do. The focus is on the Holy Spirit, who confirmed the apostles on Pentecost (Acts 2:1–4) and gave them courage to practice their faith. Catholics believe that the same Holy Spirit confirms Catholics during the Sacrament of Confirmation and gives them the same gifts and fruits.
Yes, that's all bullshit and kind of creepy to you and me, and Rass' kid, but to water it down to a graduation from CCD is completely missing the point.
Jerloma wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 5:25 pm
Right, but that's the thing. If you're a Catholic, asking your kid to make her confirmation if she doesn't believe in god is asking her to commit a grave sin against the church...and now you're complicit in that.
Complicit to whom? Being confirmed is a graduation of sorts from CCD. It's crap that you had to do because your mother insisted on it.
Damn - this reminds me of when I was confirmed.
"Dad, do I still have to go to church after I get confirmed?"
"That's between you and your mother, but if I were you, I'd just gradually stop going..."
You have to look at it from the POV of a Catholic that actually grants moral authority to their church.
Catholics believe the Sacrament of Confirmation is the supernatural equivalent of the growth process on the natural level. It builds on what was begun in Baptism and what was nourished in Holy Eucharist. It completes the process of initiation into the Christian community, and it matures the soul for the work ahead.
So what occurs during a Catholic Confirmation? The Holy Spirit is first introduced to a Catholic the day that she’s baptized, because the entire Holy Trinity — Father, Son, and Holy Spirit — are invoked at the ceremony. During Confirmation, God the Holy Spirit comes upon the person, accompanied by God the Father and God the Son, just as he did at Pentecost.
This sacrament is called Confirmation because the faith given in Baptism is now confirmed and made strong. Sometimes, those who benefit from Confirmation are referred to as soldiers of Christ. This isn’t a military designation but a spiritual duty to fight the war between good and evil, light and darkness — a war between the human race and all the powers of hell.
Confirmation means accepting responsibility for your faith and destiny. Childhood is a time when you’re told what to do, and you react positively to reward and negatively to punishment. Adulthood, even young adulthood, means that you must do what’s right on your own, not for the recognition or reward but merely because it’s the right thing to do. The focus is on the Holy Spirit, who confirmed the apostles on Pentecost (Acts 2:1–4) and gave them courage to practice their faith. Catholics believe that the same Holy Spirit confirms Catholics during the Sacrament of Confirmation and gives them the same gifts and fruits.
Yes, that's all bullshit and kind of creepy to you and me, and Rass' kid, but to water it down to a graduation from CCD is completely missing the point.
No, it's still graduation from CCD to people who can think for themselves. I get you have a larger nit to pick with the church, but any moral authority the church once had was lost when it became known just how deep the pedophilia went.
Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity
Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 7:17 pm
by sancarlos
You guys are missing each other because you are focusing on different camps of people who self-identify as Catholics.
Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity
Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 7:29 pm
by Jerloma
No, it's still graduation from CCD to people who can think for themselves. I get you have a larger nit to pick with the church, but any moral authority the church once had was lost when it became known just how deep the pedophilia went.
No, I'm trying to help Rass resolve this issue because I went through the same thing with my mom and I assure you that telling her to just start thinking for herself was not the way to go about it and kind of insensitive quite frankly. Nobody chooses to be indoctrinated, especially as a child. The remedy for fear is reason; not condescension.
Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity
Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 7:34 pm
by Jerloma
sancarlos wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 7:17 pm
You guys are missing each other because you are focusing on different camps of people who self-identify as Catholics.
Lol. I assure you, and I don't care how progressive a church claims itself to be, they're not telling CCD kids that confirmation is just graduation from CCD. If you self-identify as a Catholic, I have no reason not to believe that you adhere to the sacraments and dogma of the HRCC. Otherwise what's the point?
Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity
Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 7:49 pm
by The Sybian
mister d wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 4:46 pm
I like that your wife isn't forcing her to do it.
This. Huge props to Mrs. Rass, I can't imagine this is easy for her. I also imagine your daughter feels worse that she is hurting your wife since she was involved in the whole CCD process. I know you guys are both fantastic parents and will make her feel loved and supported through this process. I know for me, it was earth shattering when I had the epiphany that I didn't believe in God. It was the year of my Bar Mitzvah, but I think it must have been after my Bar Mitzvah. Either way, I identified more with the cultural and historic ties to my people rather than the ancient words I sang without knowing the meaning of more than 3 words.
No, it's still graduation from CCD to people who can think for themselves. I get you have a larger nit to pick with the church, but any moral authority the church once had was lost when it became known just how deep the pedophilia went.
No, I'm trying to help Rass resolve this issue because I went through the same thing with my mom and I assure you that telling her to just start thinking for herself was not the way to go about it and kind of insensitive quite frankly. Nobody chooses to be indoctrinated, especially as a child. The remedy for fear is reason; not condescension.
Except that Rass's daughter, by questioning the very existence of a god, suggests to me that she is capable of the bigger picture. It's not a question of condescension: but rather, pragmatism. Just do it for mom, because if you don't you might resent your actions later on.
sancarlos wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 7:17 pm
You guys are missing each other because you are focusing on different camps of people who self-identify as Catholics.
Lol. I assure you, and I don't care how progressive a church claims itself to be, they're not telling CCD kids that confirmation is just graduation from CCD. If you self-identify as a Catholic, I have no reason not to believe that you adhere to the sacraments and dogma of the HRCC. Otherwise what's the point?
Of course they aren't. But that's what we all thought it was (the end of CCD, not the end of the beginning or some nonsense like that). This was back in 1985. And the reason you don't bend over to all the sacraments is because it's a social scene. Just abide by the golden rule and be thankful your mother didn't make you be an altar boy.
Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity
Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 8:08 pm
by EnochRoot
sancarlos wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 7:17 pm
You guys are missing each other because you are focusing on different camps of people who self-identify as Catholics.
But if the litmus test of going through confirmation is whether or not you are willing to hand over your entire moral compass to the church, that gets LOL-as-hell real fast.
"Um...what's the Catholic Church's position on the Pfizer vaccine? Or does it prefer me to take the Moderna?"
That on its face is fucking absurd.
Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity
Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 8:16 pm
by mister d
EnochRoot wrote: ↑Mon May 03, 2021 7:55 pmExcept that Rass's daughter, by questioning the very existence of a god, suggests to me that she is capable of the bigger picture. It's not a question of condescension: but rather, pragmatism. Just do it for mom, because if you don't you might resent your actions later on.
No, it's still graduation from CCD to people who can think for themselves. I get you have a larger nit to pick with the church, but any moral authority the church once had was lost when it became known just how deep the pedophilia went.
No, I'm trying to help Rass resolve this issue because I went through the same thing with my mom and I assure you that telling her to just start thinking for herself was not the way to go about it and kind of insensitive quite frankly. Nobody chooses to be indoctrinated, especially as a child. The remedy for fear is reason; not condescension.
Except that Rass's daughter, by questioning the very existence of a god, suggests to me that she is capable of the bigger picture. It's not a question of condescension: but rather, pragmatism. Just do it for mom, because if you don't you might resent your actions later on.
Yeah, I'm a whatever on that. I was under the impression that mom is more concerned about her apostasy than partaking in the ritual or not.
No, it's still graduation from CCD to people who can think for themselves. I get you have a larger nit to pick with the church, but any moral authority the church once had was lost when it became known just how deep the pedophilia went.
No, I'm trying to help Rass resolve this issue because I went through the same thing with my mom and I assure you that telling her to just start thinking for herself was not the way to go about it and kind of insensitive quite frankly. Nobody chooses to be indoctrinated, especially as a child. The remedy for fear is reason; not condescension.
Except that Rass's daughter, by questioning the very existence of a god, suggests to me that she is capable of the bigger picture. It's not a question of condescension: but rather, pragmatism. Just do it for mom, because if you don't you might resent your actions later on.
Yeah, I'm a whatever on that. I was under the impression that mom is more concerned about her apostasy than partaking in the ritual or not.
I'm not going to delve into the mind of a devout (much less one I have never met), but I'm not sure she's going to see blowing off one as less important than the other, considering what it represents to old school catholics.
Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity
Posted: Thu May 27, 2021 4:14 pm
by sancarlos
Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity
Posted: Fri May 28, 2021 7:37 am
by Johnnie
I'm never having kids, but if I did I hope they would end up like that one.
215 bodies in one of the "schools" run by the Catholic Church in conjunction with the Canadian government.
Although the Canadian government has formally apologized and paid billions in compensation to the survivors of residential schools, the Catholic Church has yet to issue an apology of its own. Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau went as far as to make a personal appeal to Pope Francis in 2018, but the request was rejected.
215 bodies in one of the "schools" run by the Catholic Church in conjunction with the Canadian government.
Although the Canadian government has formally apologized and paid billions in compensation to the survivors of residential schools, the Catholic Church has yet to issue an apology of its own. Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau went as far as to make a personal appeal to Pope Francis in 2018, but the request was rejected.
Canadian history can hold its own with anyone in a genocide of aboriginals contest.
Says the childless man who never has to worry about the cost of living.
Also, way to impose guilt, Catholic Church. Really on-brand.
Furthermore, you're not exactly a beacon of virtue in the GIVING ADVICE ABOUT CHILDREN department.
Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity
Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2022 10:06 am
by HaulCitgo
At the same time there is a lady with what looks like a greyhound in my 7-800 sq ft apt building. Another horse looking thing gets walked through the complex. And gazillions of regular to ratish dogs that piss on the front door and make it smell terrible. Humans actually walk behind these things and pick up their shit.
Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity
Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2022 10:13 am
by mister d
That's a very small apartment building.
Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity
Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 10:52 pm
by Johnnie
Not all heroes wear capes.
Re: Godless III - Completing The Trinity
Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2022 1:11 pm
by Johnnie
I listen to the Opening Arguments podcast.
They had Andrew Seidel of the Freedom From Religion Foundation on to discuss the findings of a report of how Christian Nationalism is the foundation of extremism for what happened on January 6th (and in the days leading up to it) and how bad things are right now because of it.
