The Swamp

Shirley wrote: ↑Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:25 am I don't want to pay for that Lancet article either. I think universal health care is the way to go and I definitely believe it will save a lot of money and lives. But 68K lives per year? That seems WAY too high. How is that even possible?

Assuming that people are aware of the services available and take advantage of them (which is a big assumption), I do think the number of lives saved would be shockingly high. A lot of people currently forgo preventative medicine and needed treatment because of the out-of-pocket costs. If you’re poor in this country and genuinely living paycheck to paycheck, even the costs of OTC medicine and prescription co-pays can be a huge burden.

I’m sure you could easily show a correlation between wealth and finding potentially fatal diseases earlier.

I have seen shocking numbers before related to people just not seeking care being correlated to early death.

The fact that there are many, many American diabetics who have trouble affording insulin would indicate that the 68k number could even be too low.

These people are going to die early from things that could be prevented.

Shirley wrote: ↑Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:25 am I don't want to pay for that Lancet article either. I think universal health care is the way to go and I definitely believe it will save a lot of money and lives. But 68K lives per year? That seems WAY too high. How is that even possible?

That number doesn't surprise me. I think studies have estimated tens of thousands of deaths so far due to Roberts declaring the Medicaid expansion optional and Republican states sacrificing their population on owning the libs.

That's one reason I'd like to know what baseline they're comparing to.

Getting universal coverage is important. It's demanding single-payer as the only option that (in my view) is foolish.

DSafetyGuy wrote: ↑Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:30 am

degenerasian wrote: ↑Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:19 am How did Pete navigate this successfully compared to the other yoots?

By being a generic centrist.

Oh, and being a white male certainly helped.

So is Beto. And he was people's choice way ahead of Pete.

degenerasian wrote: ↑Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:20 pm

DSafetyGuy wrote: ↑Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:30 am

degenerasian wrote: ↑Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:19 am How did Pete navigate this successfully compared to the other yoots?

By being a generic centrist.

Oh, and being a white male certainly helped.

So is Beto. And he was people's choice way ahead of Pete.

Man, I'm just born to be in it.

He was Texas's people's choice, but once he went national he just seemed awkward and he was managed to not have charisma. He should've been more like Pete in the articulate sense and more like himself when he was running for Senate.

He and Castro should've been working hard to turn Texas blue.

Johnnie wrote: ↑Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:48 pm

degenerasian wrote: ↑Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:20 pm

DSafetyGuy wrote: ↑Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:30 am

degenerasian wrote: ↑Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:19 am How did Pete navigate this successfully compared to the other yoots?

By being a generic centrist.

Oh, and being a white male certainly helped.

So is Beto. And he was people's choice way ahead of Pete.

Man, I'm just born to be in it.

He was Texas's people's choice, but once he went national he just seemed awkward and he was managed to not have charisma. He should've been more like Pete in the articulate sense and more like himself when he was running for Senate.

He and Castro should've been working hard to turn Texas blue.

It was more that he could have a great narrative as someone with all of the same effect as a young Obama, and Pete, but his background was one that showed that he was somewhat beholden to Texas energy powers that be. From there the left couldn't back him no matter how much his At the Drive-In cred tried. Pete is an even blanker slate, and his sexuality is a Trojan horse for his benefactors' platforms.

Pete has charisma?

Co-opted Obama’s charisma for those not paying much attention.

I just got a text today inviting me to a Buttigieg town hall in Salt Lake City tomorrow (Monday). I'm not sure if I want to go.

mister d wrote: ↑Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:19 pm Co-opted Obama’s charisma for those not paying much attention.

I think he has obviously models his public speaking after obama

He's totally the white Obama. I'm glad people are catching on to that.

SNL's most recent skit was pretty dead on with that.

It raises some uncomfortable questions if you ask me. Seems like there's more than a few people who like Obama but have a visceral negative reaction to Pete.

Rex wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:25 am It raises some uncomfortable questions if you ask me. Seems like there's more than a few people who like Obama but have a visceral negative reaction to Pete.

Obama felt sincere. To me, Pete does not. I am pretty sure it's not that Pete is gay, at least, in my case.

His overall hollowness is what makes it fucked up; because you know they've intentionally constructed him as an impersonator to appeal to those who "liked things how they were". If he had strong core convictions, you could write it off as "Obama is obviously going to be the most influential public speaker to a guy who was 22 at the time of the DNC speech".

tennbengal wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:48 am

Rex wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:25 am It raises some uncomfortable questions if you ask me. Seems like there's more than a few people who like Obama but have a visceral negative reaction to Pete.

Obama felt sincere. To me, Pete does not. I am pretty sure it's not that Pete is gay, at least, in my case.

Also Obama had at least been a US Senator before running for President. Buttigieg has only ever won very low turnout mayoral races, and lost badly when he tried to run for statewide office. Also, the speed and shamelessness with which Buttigieg has completely reversed course on important issues to attack Sanders/Warren from the right is pretty breathtaking. He originally pitched himself as a young progressive and now he’s running as an anti-MFA deficit hawk. Plus you’ve got some pretty ugly race relations stuff from his tenure as mayor (e.g., defending South Bend police officers when they made shirts mocking Eric Garner’s death, firing black police/fire chiefs, etc.).

My theory is he's really a Young Republican who knows his path up isn't in that party.

Pete strikes me a that kid who ran for class president in high school and showed up on election day wearing a suit. He's clearly always wanted to be a politician and has modeled his life to that goal. And obviously not just help-the-locals politics - he's jumping almost straight to president. I don't trust people like that.

Shirley wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:40 am Pete strikes me a that kid who ran for class president in high school and showed up on election day wearing a suit. He's clearly always wanted to be a politician and has modeled his life to that goal. And obviously not just help-the-locals politics - he's jumping almost straight to president. I don't trust people like that.

I’m pretty close in age to Pete (I’m 35) and that’s exactly how he strikes me. I don’t think we’re at all alone in that impression, as evidenced by how poorly he does with young voters despite being the youngest candidate in the race.

That all pretty much sums up my take.

Yeah it's just amazing how he became the choice ahead of others like Beto, Kamala or Gillebrand.

Is he just taking advantage that Iowa and NH were first.

The Chapo Trap House guys are in deep over their conspiracies about him. But they have definitely made some of the same points that popped up in this thread. Ultimately there is something that's odd about it all.

I mean, I got wrapped up in it too with my previous avatar with him. But I can't help but get a phony vibe from the dude now. I can't quite figure it out.

I'd like to hear these theories (without listening to the podcast).

Mayor Pete did 9/11.

Johnnie wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:56 pm The Chapo Trap House guys are in deep over their conspiracies about him. But they have definitely made some of the same points that popped up in this thread. Ultimately there is something that's odd about it all.

I mean, I got wrapped up in it too with my previous avatar with him. But I can't help but get a phony vibe from the dude now. I can't quite figure it out.

It's probably the phoniness.

Joe K wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:55 am

Shirley wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:40 am Pete strikes me a that kid who ran for class president in high school and showed up on election day wearing a suit. He's clearly always wanted to be a politician and has modeled his life to that goal. And obviously not just help-the-locals politics - he's jumping almost straight to president. I don't trust people like that.

I’m pretty close in age to Pete (I’m 35) and that’s exactly how he strikes me. I don’t think we’re at all alone in that impression, as evidenced by how poorly he does with young voters despite being the youngest candidate in the race.

Joining the military to own the votes is really playing the long game

The two most notable people I can think of who joined the military because of planning to one day run for high offices are Al Gore and John Kerry, who merely had their distinguished service used against them by the Republicans anyway, so I'm sure the same thing is gonna happen to Mayor Pete (though at this point it's been mostly the Bernie Bots who have been insisting that he wasn't a "real" soldier).

Ryan wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:28 pm

Joe K wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:55 am

Shirley wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:40 am Pete strikes me a that kid who ran for class president in high school and showed up on election day wearing a suit. He's clearly always wanted to be a politician and has modeled his life to that goal. And obviously not just help-the-locals politics - he's jumping almost straight to president. I don't trust people like that.

I’m pretty close in age to Pete (I’m 35) and that’s exactly how he strikes me. I don’t think we’re at all alone in that impression, as evidenced by how poorly he does with young voters despite being the youngest candidate in the race.

Joining the military to own the votes is really playing the long game

I wasn’t specifically referring to the military service but I 100% think Tom Cotton joined the military because of his political ambitions. So I wouldn’t completely discount the chance of Pete doing that.

I'll let Johnnie or someone else on the inside speak to whether Pete's direct commission thing (source: the Bernie Bots at the Wall St Journal) is a legit knock or swift boating.

mister d wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:50 pm I'll let Johnnie or someone else on the inside speak to whether Pete's direct commission thing (source: the Bernie Bots at the Wall St Journal) is a legit knock or swift boating.

Why can't you decide for yourself?

He wasn't a Navy SEAL, but to my knowledge he hasn't lied or exaggerated about his service. Someone sitting at a desk in Afghanistan is still in much more danger than some rando and definitely in more danger than someone who didn't choose to do any military service at all (obvious note -- not doing military service doesn't make someone "worse" nor does doing military service make someone "better").

If he was exaggerating any tales of his service I would have some issues, but under the circumstances I think it's probably a net positive for him, really one of the only ones he gets from me.

But if he's the nominee these kind of attacks will be coming from Fox News and then a Trump Bot near you.







This guy’s handle is a trip:

https://twitter.com/unspokenbond

brian wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:56 pmWhy can't you decide for yourself?

Because, having never served, I have no idea if that designation is seen by peers as a negative, a non-issue or something in between.

mister d wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:01 pm

brian wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:56 pmWhy can't you decide for yourself?

Because, having never served, I have no idea if that designation is seen by peers as a negative, a non-issue or something in between.

Why should their opinion matter either? Again, this is all part of his record and has been for as long as he's been running. The WSJ didn't exactly dig up some Pulitzer-worthy scoop here. He's never claimed to have pulled guys from an exploded Hummer or anything. Make up your own fucking mind instead of caring what other veterans think. Veterans were at the frontlines of smearing Gore and Kerry.

Hmmm. Compelling counter to my "defer to the guy here who knows about these things better than me" approach.

All due respect to Johnnie, even he is just still one guy. I respect his opinion about military matters, especially since he's seemed to always be really honest about it, but no matter what he says it's not going to change my opinion that Mayor Pete served honorably and hasn't exaggerated his military experience (or that said service, while certainly not a negative isn't some enormous positive either).

And whatever he says, I don't think it's cool to denigrate anyone's service (short of being accused of crimes or something like that), especially if you yourself haven't served. I honestly regret talking shit about George W Bush's record. Sure, he was ducking Vietnam, but at least he did something.

I kind of see both sides here. I don't think there's anything wrong with soliciting opinions of those in an "industry" to say what they think about a candidate's role in that industry. But I also don't think Pete's service should be disqualifying even it if was just desk sitting.

A_B wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:19 pm I kind of see both sides here. I don't think there's anything wrong with soliciting opinions of those in an "industry" to say what they think about a candidate's role in that industry. But I also don't think Pete's service should be disqualifying even it if was just desk sitting.

Honestly, I think my entire beef can be summed up by this and I'll leave it at that:

I don't think it's cool to denigrate anyone's service (short of being accused of crimes or something like that), especially if you yourself haven't served.

I don't think it's cool for the Bernie Bots to be doing it now and I won't think it's cool if Pete if the nominee and all the MAGAts are doing it as well.

Wall St. Journal.