The Swamp

brian wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:06 am Wyoming is an exception to the rule that red states are generally "takers", not "makers".

That said, they still might find it a lot tougher sledding in a "country" of 750,000-ish people without federal management of a state that is mostly BLM land, etc., etc.

The state would be happy to manage that land itself. Or sell it off. They’d especially love to control the mineral lands.

The “federal aid” part is somewhat misleading. Half of the royalties for oil and gas leases on federal land are paid over to the states. But because the money is paid to the feds then remitted to the states, it looks like aid when it’s just the state’s share of the resource in the state.

I was referring mostly to the concept of how the states who have the largest disparity between federal income tax generated and amount of federal aid received are states like West Virginia, Alabama, Mississippi, Arkansas, etc.

Those states would quickly become Weimar Germany if they seceded. States like Wyoming, Idaho, Utah, etc. don't generate much income from federal taxes either, but would have a fighting chance if the federal aid spigot was turned off.

So in the last 24 hours McConnell has admitted People need help with Covid relief, has gone to church with Joe Biden, and now this...


I know Biden and McConnell even though had different platforms had a good relationship outside of office, but is McConnell turning Face, trying to kiss ass, or trying to save his self?

psunate77 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:15 pm So in the last 24 hours McConnell has admitted People need help with Covid relief, has gone to church with Joe Biden, and now this...


I know Biden and McConnell even though had different platforms had a good relationship outside of office, but is McConnell turning Face, trying to kiss ass, or trying to save his self?

McConnell is smart enough to know that if he says the right things like this, the press will back off him as he filibusters every piece of legislation the Dems try to get passed.

The baseline reset button that works every time. Just like if Trump gives an interview in July acknowledging the Covid rollout wasn't perfect, people will fall all over themselves to give him a full image rehabilitation.

This and Flightaware should keep me busy

Setting international relations fires on the way out the door. Declared (rightfully, mind you) Chinese treatment of Uighurs to be genocide.

mister d wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:02 pm The baseline reset button that works every time. Just like if Trump gives an interview in July acknowledging the Covid rollout wasn't perfect, people will fall all over themselves to give him a full image rehabilitation.

Which would be as American as apple pie.

mister d wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:02 pm The baseline reset button that works every time. Just like if Trump gives an interview in July acknowledging the Covid rollout wasn't perfect, people will fall all over themselves to give him a full image rehabilitation.

The hilarious thing is that Trump isn't even possible of this infinitesimal level of self-awareness or self-doubt.

Acknowledging the COVID rollout wasn't perfect? Yeah right. He had Tulsa instead. Tulsa is really the beginning of the end and what lost him the election.

degenerasian wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:45 pm Acknowledging the COVID rollout wasn't perfect? Yeah right. He had Tulsa instead. Tulsa is really the beginning of the end and what lost him the election.

I don’t think so. The beginning of the end was when he severely hindered the American response to the pandemic. Back in 2017. Had he not done that, and instead saw how to weaponize dutiful risk mitigation as a patriotic act, he would’ve won this election by a landslide.

Instead, the GOP is so far down the rabbit hole, that they’re left with Mike fucking Lindell claiming fraud, because he can prove it with all the uncounted, shredded ballots in the pillows he’s manufactured and about to lose to Dominion via lawsuit?

I got some of those fascist pillows for christmas.

P.D.X. wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:06 pm I got some of those fascist pillows for christmas.

Was this your experience as well?

EnochRoot wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:57 pm

degenerasian wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:45 pm Acknowledging the COVID rollout wasn't perfect? Yeah right. He had Tulsa instead. Tulsa is really the beginning of the end and what lost him the election.

I don’t think so. The beginning of the end was when he severely hindered the American response to the pandemic. Back in 2017. Had he not done that, and instead saw how to weaponize dutiful risk mitigation as a patriotic act, he would’ve won this election by a landslide.

Instead, the GOP is so far down the rabbit hole, that they’re left with Mike fucking Lindell claiming fraud, because he can prove it with all the uncounted, shredded ballots in the pillows he’s manufactured and about to lose to Dominion via lawsuit?

I think the beginning of the end was Election Day 2016, when he got 46% of the vote and only won because the votes against him were split between three candidates. His approval basically didn't change from there, and he did just about as well in 2020 as he did the first time, but this time the votes against him weren't split.

Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:14 pm

EnochRoot wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:57 pm

degenerasian wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:45 pm Acknowledging the COVID rollout wasn't perfect? Yeah right. He had Tulsa instead. Tulsa is really the beginning of the end and what lost him the election.

I don’t think so. The beginning of the end was when he severely hindered the American response to the pandemic. Back in 2017. Had he not done that, and instead saw how to weaponize dutiful risk mitigation as a patriotic act, he would’ve won this election by a landslide.

Instead, the GOP is so far down the rabbit hole, that they’re left with Mike fucking Lindell claiming fraud, because he can prove it with all the uncounted, shredded ballots in the pillows he’s manufactured and about to lose to Dominion via lawsuit?

I think the beginning of the end was Election Day 2016, when he got 46% of the vote and only won because the votes against him were split between three candidates. His approval basically didn't change from there, and he did just about as well in 2020 as he did the first time, but this time the votes against him weren't split.

So THAT'S what did him in!

brian wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:07 pm

P.D.X. wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:06 pm I got some of those fascist pillows for christmas.

Was this your experience as well?

Actually they're not awful. Maybe things change once you sin on them.

Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:14 pm

EnochRoot wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:57 pm

degenerasian wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:45 pm Acknowledging the COVID rollout wasn't perfect? Yeah right. He had Tulsa instead. Tulsa is really the beginning of the end and what lost him the election.

I don’t think so. The beginning of the end was when he severely hindered the American response to the pandemic. Back in 2017. Had he not done that, and instead saw how to weaponize dutiful risk mitigation as a patriotic act, he would’ve won this election by a landslide.

Instead, the GOP is so far down the rabbit hole, that they’re left with Mike fucking Lindell claiming fraud, because he can prove it with all the uncounted, shredded ballots in the pillows he’s manufactured and about to lose to Dominion via lawsuit?

I think the beginning of the end was Election Day 2016, when he got 46% of the vote and only won because the votes against him were split between three candidates. His approval basically didn't change from there, and he did just about as well in 2020 as he did the first time, but this time the votes against him weren't split.

I mean, I guess so. But the point I was making is the Democrat ticket would've been dead on arrival had Trump led us through this pandemic the way Obama (and his predecessor) was prepared to do.

For sure. He straight choked on a lay up.

EnochRoot wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:09 pm

Steve of phpBB wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:14 pm

EnochRoot wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:57 pm

degenerasian wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:45 pm Acknowledging the COVID rollout wasn't perfect? Yeah right. He had Tulsa instead. Tulsa is really the beginning of the end and what lost him the election.

I don’t think so. The beginning of the end was when he severely hindered the American response to the pandemic. Back in 2017. Had he not done that, and instead saw how to weaponize dutiful risk mitigation as a patriotic act, he would’ve won this election by a landslide.

Instead, the GOP is so far down the rabbit hole, that they’re left with Mike fucking Lindell claiming fraud, because he can prove it with all the uncounted, shredded ballots in the pillows he’s manufactured and about to lose to Dominion via lawsuit?

I think the beginning of the end was Election Day 2016, when he got 46% of the vote and only won because the votes against him were split between three candidates. His approval basically didn't change from there, and he did just about as well in 2020 as he did the first time, but this time the votes against him weren't split.

I mean, I guess so. But the point I was making is the Democrat ticket would've been dead on arrival had Trump led us through this pandemic the way Obama (and his predecessor) was prepared to do.

I'm not sure how anyone could dispute this. The election was close enough (Trump essentially lost by less than a quarter million votes across three or four states) that anything other than the shambolic response he put out for COVID probably would have won the election for him. It definitely would have won AZ and GA and I feel like PA might have been in play had he not botched it so spectacularly. But leopards can't change their stripes.

He would have won if it wasn't for COVID. And a Bush-era Republican (assuming a more competent response to COVID) would have won easily. I don't think enough people appreciate how hard it is for an incumbent of either party to lose when the Dow is high, job figures are strong and there is no imminent foreign crisis.

Eh. Toss up at best given his tanked approval ratings and the fact the Democrats mid-term #s. His botched COVID response cost him the election. Not COVID itself.

1. Trump didn't lose by a quarter of a million votes. He lost by about one-sixth of that. If 23,000 people in AZ, WI, and GA had voted Trump instead of Biden, the Electoral College would be tied, the election would go to the House, votes would be done by state, and Trump would be re-elected.

2. While it's possible that if Trump weren't involved, the election could have come down to how Covid was handled, I don't think we have much evidence that it made much of a difference here. Y'all are assuming that voters weigh the pros and cons of each candidate, their abilities, performance, and policy proposals, and decide accordingly. While that is logical, I don't think that's actually true.

In fact, I think it's backwards. People don't decide how they feel about Trump based on his Covid response; people decide how they feel about his Covid response based on how they feel about Trump. That's why his approval rating did not really change much during his term.

This is a summary of the Gallup polling - Trump's approval went down for a while when the Covid crisis hit, then returned to its normal level.

That chart seems to show that in a race “decided by 23,000 votes”, COVID was decisive.

We’ll never know but I think even if 400,000 people had still died, but if Trump had managed to even pretend to give a crap about trying to care about stopping the spread or the people who died he would have won.

brian wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:19 pm We’ll never know but I think even if 400,000 people had still died, but if Trump had managed to even pretend to give a crap about trying to care about stopping the spread or the people who died he would have won.

Yes, I tell people this all the time, even if he would have done a 1/10 better with Covid he would have won.. Seemed like when Woodward audio came out it was over for him and he probably knew it as he stopped attending covid meetings.

psunate77 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:28 pm

brian wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:19 pm We’ll never know but I think even if 400,000 people had still died, but if Trump had managed to even pretend to give a crap about trying to care about stopping the spread or the people who died he would have won.

Yes, I tell people this all the time, even if he would have done a 1/10 better with Covid he would have won.. Seemed like when Woodward audio came out it was over for him and he probably knew it as he stopped attending covid meetings.

In a logical world, this is what should have happened, but I don't think the Woodward tape moved the needle for anyone. I agree Steve, people who supported Trump either think he did a great job on COVID, or believe it's a hoax perpetuated by China and the Dems to hurt Trump in the election.

Dems and Repubs, same same same. Biden looks just like...(wait, I am being handed a note)

tennbengal wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:03 pm Dems and Repubs, same same same. Biden looks just like...(wait, I am being handed a note)

Are you implying that's different rhetoric than "Grab 'em by the pussy, they let you when you are famous."?

Rex wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:18 pm That chart seems to show that in a race “decided by 23,000 votes”, COVID was decisive.

Yeah, I suppose that does make sense. With the race that close any one thing could've changed the result.

The Sybian wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:07 pm

tennbengal wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:03 pm Dems and Repubs, same same same. Biden looks just like...(wait, I am being handed a note)

Are you implying that's different rhetoric than "Grab 'em by the pussy, they let you when you are famous."?

It would appear those are different approaches, yes.

tennbengal wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:29 pm

The Sybian wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:07 pm

tennbengal wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:03 pm Dems and Repubs, same same same. Biden looks just like...(wait, I am being handed a note)

Are you implying that's different rhetoric than "Grab 'em by the pussy, they let you when you are famous."?

It would appear those are different approaches, yes.

Speaking of different approaches ...



Who knows how all this will play out, but Biden certainly looks serious about dealing with climate change.

Given the discussion about Cedric Richmond way back when, this part seems particularly relevant:

Cecilia Martinez, a prominent advocate for addressing racial inequality in environmental policies, will serve as senior director for environmental justice at the Council on Environmental Quality.

Tulsa was a big FU. Up until that point, he had handled it fairly okay, yeah he was arguing with doctors and his press conferences were nuts but that was expected. He could still blame the virus on China. I don't think that turned the dial to the regular voter. Also as was mentioned, DOW was still up, no wars, we can get through this pandemic, in June, people didn't think the pandemic would last into 2021.

But while in lockdown to turn around and have a big rally just because he had to have a big rally? he always has to have the biggest rally? Now he is personally mocking the virus while others are suffering. It was grotesque symbolism.

degenerasian wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:42 pm Tulsa was a big FU. Up until that point, he had handled it fairly okay, yeah he was arguing with doctors and his press conferences were nuts but that was expected. He could still blame the virus on China. I don't think that turned the dial to the regular voter. Also as was mentioned, DOW was still up, no wars, we can get through this pandemic, in June, people didn't think the pandemic would last into 2021.

But while in lockdown to turn around and have a big rally just because he had to have a big rally? he always has to have the biggest rally? Now he is personally mocking the virus while others are suffering. It was grotesque symbolism.

I get your point, and Tulsa was a key event in showing Trump didn't give a fuck and put his need for large groups of adulating fans over health and safety, but how can you say he handled it OK prior to Tulsa? I mean, this is the guy whose plan, 3 months in, was "it'll just magically disappear by Easter." He did absolutely nothing. Worse than nothing, he continually called it a hoax by the Democrats and convinced 10s of millions of people that it wasn't real, that masks were politically correct bullshit, they should ignore all state and local efforts to steal their freedoms and inspired some nutters to plan to kidnap and kill the Governor of Michigan for imposing restrictions. But other than that, he did OK.

Solid B-/C+

The Sybian wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:00 pm

degenerasian wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:42 pm Tulsa was a big FU. Up until that point, he had handled it fairly okay, yeah he was arguing with doctors and his press conferences were nuts but that was expected. He could still blame the virus on China. I don't think that turned the dial to the regular voter. Also as was mentioned, DOW was still up, no wars, we can get through this pandemic, in June, people didn't think the pandemic would last into 2021.

But while in lockdown to turn around and have a big rally just because he had to have a big rally? he always has to have the biggest rally? Now he is personally mocking the virus while others are suffering. It was grotesque symbolism.

I get your point, and Tulsa was a key event in showing Trump didn't give a fuck and put his need for large groups of adulating fans over health and safety, but how can you say he handled it OK prior to Tulsa? I mean, this is the guy whose plan, 3 months in, was "it'll just magically disappear by Easter." He did absolutely nothing. Worse than nothing, he continually called it a hoax by the Democrats and convinced 10s of millions of people that it wasn't real, that masks were politically correct bullshit, they should ignore all state and local efforts to steal their freedoms and inspired some nutters to plan to kidnap and kill the Governor of Michigan for imposing restrictions. But other than that, he did OK.

I will quote Steve above. "People don't decide how they feel about Trump based on his Covid response; people decide how they feel about his Covid response based on how they feel about Trump." Most voters don't get into the nitty gritty. People just didn't know about COVID in the early stages. A lot of people thought it was a hoax, a lot of people were like, we're shutting down over this? There were re-open protests in April. Who was right? Who was wrong? By June, everybody knew the scale of this pandemic. And after Tulsa, there's was no doubt where Trump stood despite this knowledge.

degenerasian wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:06 pm

The Sybian wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:00 pm

degenerasian wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:42 pm Tulsa was a big FU. Up until that point, he had handled it fairly okay, yeah he was arguing with doctors and his press conferences were nuts but that was expected. He could still blame the virus on China. I don't think that turned the dial to the regular voter. Also as was mentioned, DOW was still up, no wars, we can get through this pandemic, in June, people didn't think the pandemic would last into 2021.

But while in lockdown to turn around and have a big rally just because he had to have a big rally? he always has to have the biggest rally? Now he is personally mocking the virus while others are suffering. It was grotesque symbolism.

I get your point, and Tulsa was a key event in showing Trump didn't give a fuck and put his need for large groups of adulating fans over health and safety, but how can you say he handled it OK prior to Tulsa? I mean, this is the guy whose plan, 3 months in, was "it'll just magically disappear by Easter." He did absolutely nothing. Worse than nothing, he continually called it a hoax by the Democrats and convinced 10s of millions of people that it wasn't real, that masks were politically correct bullshit, they should ignore all state and local efforts to steal their freedoms and inspired some nutters to plan to kidnap and kill the Governor of Michigan for imposing restrictions. But other than that, he did OK.

I will quote Steve above. "People don't decide how they feel about Trump based on his Covid response; people decide how they feel about his Covid response based on how they feel about Trump." Most voters don't get into the nitty gritty. People just didn't know about COVID in the early stages. A lot of people thought it was a hoax, a lot of people were like, we're shutting down over this? There were re-open protests in April. Who was right? Who was wrong? By June, everybody knew the scale of this pandemic. And after Tulsa, there's was no doubt where Trump stood despite this knowledge.

People came out in droves to vote out a white supremacist the fuck out of the White House. Had he nailed the COVID response, he'd have won regardless. The reason it was so close probably had to do with GOP operatives trying to ratfuck the election by removing USPS sorting machines, and the continued startling reality of voting while black/of color.

"Damn! I got 77,000 steps in today, but at least I voted!"