AFC Championship - Pats/Colts

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:41 pm

Ryan wrote:I don't think Brady taking the fall is remotely possible, either.

Yeah, there's no way. Brady already called this absurd. He's not going to come out before the Super Bowl and say "I cheated and I lied." The Pats have absolutely no reason whatsoever not to play ignorant here.

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:42 pm

brian wrote:
Ryan wrote:I don't think Brady taking the fall is remotely possible, either.
So Belichick blames Brady and Brady blames Belichick? That might work, but I don't think it's going to matter much to Sheriff Goodell. (And I don't see how that's good for their future working relationship unless it's contrived by them, though that's entirely possible.)

I imagine they really probably are just going to blame it on a rogue ballboy (probably the smart move), but that's still going to result in some punishment.

Why do you think they have to blame anyone? Why can't they just keep shrugging their shoulders?

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:43 pm

I read that Jay Glazer said that the NFL was going to check the air pressure in the balls at halftime regardless. Apparently they had a heads up.

Which makes sense if and only if you follow through and have someone watching the footballs once they are given to their teams.

And if it was such a big deal, why wasn't the game stopped in protest after halftime? The footballs were pumped up and the game resumed. That right there tells me that this isn't a big deal and we shouldn't even bother. It feels more like a "Ah, ya snuck one by us!" level infraction instead of this conspiratorial monstrosity it has become.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:44 pm

brian wrote:
Ryan wrote:I don't think Brady taking the fall is remotely possible, either.
So Belichick blames Brady and Brady blames Belichick? That might work, but I don't think it's going to matter much to Sheriff Goodell.

I imagine they really probably are just going to blame it on a rogue ballboy (probably the smart move), but that's still going to result in some punishment.

I think the insinuation (because Tom Brady can't won't straight-up blame anyone) that it must have been a ballboy/sideline thing is definitely in play. My guess, though, is that he steers them towards the minutae of his routine in such a way that it reminds everyone of what all the other QBs have been saying/accused of. And boom, we're back to steroids and nobody cares.

ETA: Yep, the just playing dumb card is also in the deck.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:50 pm

The greatest possible outcome is Pats lose, Brady does take the fall post-Super Bowl, Belichick turns and releases him and the Boston media torches Brady on the way out the door.

Post by **brian** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:51 pm

Jerloma wrote:
brian wrote:
Ryan wrote:I don't think Brady taking the fall is remotely possible, either.
So Belichick blames Brady and Brady blames Belichick? That might work, but I don't think it's going to matter much to Sheriff Goodell. (And I don't see how that's good for their future working relationship unless it's contrived by them, though that's entirely possible.)

I imagine they really probably are just going to blame it on a rogue ballboy (probably the smart move), but that's still going to result in some punishment.
Why do you think they have to blame anyone? Why can't they just keep shrugging their shoulders?

Well, that's essentially what I mean. My point was that the NFL knows that's bullshit, unless they're even dumber than I think. What they can prove and what they can punish for are two completely different things. In a court of law, for example, unless someone rats one of them out how could you "convict" Brady or Belichick?

But the NFL punishment would be thrown at the team because someone on their team obviously did mess with the balls. So it doesn't really matter to the NFL whether it was Brady or Belichick or Gronk or whoeverthefuck.

So if I'm not clear, I don't understand how this strategy necessary is as genius as Ryan is making it out. I obviously wouldn't expect them to throw their hands up and say "yeah, you got us -- we did it" but I don't see how they're going to skate by because of it either. If anything, Goodell's been shown to be a completely irrational dick about any team he thinks is trying to fuck with him -- that's why the Saints penalties were worse than they probably should have been.

So if I'm Brady and I'm talking to the NFL I might say something like "Yeah, I remember talking to some of the ballboys one time about how different pressure affects the balls, but I would NEVER have anything to do it this. Perish the thought!"

sancarlos · Post by **sancarlos** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:52 pm

mister d wrote:The greatest possible outcome is Pats lose, Brady does take the fall post-Super Bowl, Belichick turns and releases him and the Boston media torches Brady on the way out the door.

Oh, yeah, that's likely. Why don't you just add, "... and the sky rains candy and marshmallows."

Post by **brian** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:55 pm

Johnnie wrote:I read that Jay Glazer said that the NFL was going to check the air pressure in the balls at halftime regardless. Apparently they had a heads up.

Which makes sense if and only if you follow through and have someone watching the footballs once they are given to their teams.

And if it was such a big deal, why wasn't the game stopped in protest after halftime? The footballs were pumped up and the game resumed. That right there tells me that this isn't a big deal and we shouldn't even bother. It feels more like a "Ah, ya snuck one by us!" level infraction instead of this conspiratorial monstrosity it has become.

A few points -- unless I'm mistaken there's literally no way to stop an NFL game via protest. So even if the Colts cared enough I don't think they could have. Like you said, the NFL "fixed" the balls at halftime, the game went on and the Colts didn't make a big deal out of it probably because they got their asses beat down with the balls at the correct pressure, so what's the point?

But saying that that's proof that this isn't a big deal and nothing's going to come of it is the epitome of wishful thinking. Especially for a team that's a repeat offender.

mister d · Post by **mister d** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:56 pm

I feel like the Rodgers thing where he likes the ball overinflated kills Brady's plausible deniability. To go back to seams; every pitcher would want them higher. If over or under for a football are both known preferences, you'd have to know which Brady liked to adjust.

Joe K · Post by **Joe K** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:18 pm

mister d wrote:I feel like the Rodgers thing where he likes the ball overinflated kills Brady's plausible deniability. To go back to seams; every pitcher would want them higher. If over or under for a football are both known preferences, you'd have to know which Brady liked to adjust.

Yeah, while it's certainly possible Belichick was in the dark, there's no way in hell Brady was. I also find it extremely unlikely that this was a one-time occurrence, which is why I find the whole "the Colts would have lost anyway" point fairly irrelevant.

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:24 pm

Joe K wrote:
mister d wrote:I feel like the Rodgers thing where he likes the ball overinflated kills Brady's plausible deniability. To go back to seams; every pitcher would want them higher. If over or under for a football are both known preferences, you'd have to know which Brady liked to adjust.
Yeah, while it's certainly possible Belichick was in the dark, there's no way in hell Brady was. I also find it extremely unlikely that this was a one-time occurrence, which is why I find the whole "the Colts would have lost anyway" point fairly irrelevant.

Well yeah, if it's true that the Ravens tipped off the Colts...that's a game where they had to come back from 14 points twice through the air. Nobody in their right mind would say it's irrelevant in a game like that.

I don't think it's irrelevant either way because intent has to matter.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:38 pm

Brady really doesn't have to deny screwing around with the football. He just has to deny knowing how far beyond the limits they were that day. Hell, he can probably even deny knowing what the limits are. The media won't care, if he does his normal press conference thing. Next week would be worse with the dregs of society interviewing him all day, but I still don't see how he personally gets touched, on the league front, if there's no proof.

Rush2112 · Post by **Rush2112** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:43 pm

@AdamSchefter on SportsCenter said the NFL is having a hard time finding evidence in this #DeflateGate case

Post by **brian** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:48 pm

Rush2112 wrote:@AdamSchefter on SportsCenter said the NFL is having a hard time finding evidence in this #DeflateGate case

I assume he means other than the actual, you know, balls.

And I don't see how that's especially surprising. I don't know what they'd be expecting to find.

Belichick's white board in his office with a note that says "DON'T FORGET TO DEFLATE THE FOOTBALLS LOL"?

Rush2112 · Post by **Rush2112** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:56 pm

Well seeing that the only cheating would be ball boys somehow extracting the exact amount of air from 11 balls while on the sideline of a game that's nationally covered and the NFL itself has 50+ cameras at, you'd think there would be some evidence of some kid crouching in the corner deflating balls.

Gunpowder · Post by **Gunpowder** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:00 pm

It's also simultaneously something that everybody does from what I've read

Rex · Post by **Rex** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:03 pm

Pretty sure I let out a little air pressure during the second half of that game, if you know what I mean.

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:03 pm

That's like saying there's no evidence for gravity just because we don't know what causes it. The evidence is that there's more than 22 pounds of air pressure missing.

Post by **brian** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:06 pm

Gunpowder wrote:It's also simultaneously something that everybody does from what I've read

I've not seen that but I have seen some QBs and coaches admit that they try to get the balls at the very bottom range of the allowable psi if that's what the QB prefers or in the case of Rodgers and maybe some others towards the higher range if that's what they prefer. Rodgers also said sometimes they'll even submit balls above the range and make the officials remove the air. Again, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. (And I fucking hate the Packers).

I don't think I've seen any story or report where a team or player has admitted they actually remove air after the balls are approved by the league. That's a pretty huge distinction here for the argument of "everybody does it". If they do, they're not admitting it (and probably understandably so).

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:07 pm

If you're implying that we exhume Carl Sagan and suspend him for the first two preseason games, I think we've found common ground.

Gunpowder · Post by **Gunpowder** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:07 pm

I'm just saying, if it's so easy to find this on camera some Patriots fan can probably find Aaron Rodgers doing it.

Post by **brian** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:13 pm

Rush2112 wrote:Well seeing that the only cheating would be ball boys somehow extracting the exact amount of air from 11 balls while on the sideline of a game that's nationally covered and the NFL itself has 50+ cameras at, you'd think there would be some evidence of some kid crouching in the corner deflating balls.

Exactly how many cameras do you think are following the ballboys around during a given NFL game?

Rush2112 · Post by **Rush2112** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:13 pm

brian wrote:
I don't think I've seen any story or report where a team or player has admitted they actually remove air after the balls are approved by the league. That's a pretty huge distinction here for the argument of "everybody does it". If they do, they're not admitting it (and probably understandably so).

My thinking is that the NFL doesn't really test when they approve the balls. Look at em, feel 'em, approve them. The highly inflated ones are harder to get past the refs as they look like a bloated tick. If the NFL tested each ball individually with a gauge there would be no way for Rogers to "see what he can get away with."

The reason this is an issue is 1. The Colts/Irsay raised a stink 2. It's the Patriots

Rush2112 · Post by **Rush2112** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:15 pm

brian wrote:
Rush2112 wrote:Well seeing that the only cheating would be ball boys somehow extracting the exact amount of air from 11 balls while on the sideline of a game that's nationally covered and the NFL itself has 50+ cameras at, you'd think there would be some evidence of some kid crouching in the corner deflating balls.
Exactly how many cameras do you think are following the ballboys around during a given NFL game?

They have cameras filming the sidelines at all times. How do you think they get all those great NFL moments to put the DVDs?
If someone disappeared to crouch down, hide behind something it would be enough "evidence."

Post by **brian** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:16 pm

Rush2112 wrote: My thinking is that the NFL doesn't really test when they approve the balls. Look at em, feel 'em, approve them. The highly inflated ones are harder to get past the refs as they look like a bloated tick. If the NFL tested each ball individually with a gauge there would be no way for Rogers to "see what he can get away with."

This is demonstrably false. The NFL has already said and countless articles that follow officials around before a game have confirmed that they use a device to measure the psi in every ball. I don't think they decided to just not do that for a conference title game.

Gunpowder · Post by **Gunpowder** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:19 pm

So if say the Vikings were accused of pumping in crowd noise, since they weren't the Patriots, it would never get investigated or reported?

Rush2112 · Post by **Rush2112** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:22 pm

brian wrote:
Rush2112 wrote: My thinking is that the NFL doesn't really test when they approve the balls. Look at em, feel 'em, approve them. The highly inflated ones are harder to get past the refs as they look like a bloated tick. If the NFL tested each ball individually with a gauge there would be no way for Rogers to "see what he can get away with."
This is demonstrably false. The NFL has already said and countless articles that follow officials around before a game have confirmed that they use a device to measure the psi in every ball. I don't think they decided to just not do that for a conference title game.

What the NFL says and what the NFL does are two different things, Rogers' quote is an example of this, as is the quotes of the current and former players that are saying how ridiculous this whole thing is. If it wasn't true why would he be trying to get away with anything knowing that any ball was just going to be lowered to 13.5 PSI?

Joe K · Post by **Joe K** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:23 pm

Rush2112 wrote:
brian wrote:
Rush2112 wrote:Well seeing that the only cheating would be ball boys somehow extracting the exact amount of air from 11 balls while on the sideline of a game that's nationally covered and the NFL itself has 50+ cameras at, you'd think there would be some evidence of some kid crouching in the corner deflating balls.
Exactly how many cameras do you think are following the ballboys around during a given NFL game?
They have cameras filming the sidelines at all times. How do you think they get all those great NFL moments to put the DVDs?
If someone disappeared to crouch down, hide behind something it would be enough "evidence."

They check the PSI more than 2 hours prior to kickoff. How many NFL Films cameras are following the ball boys before the game even starts?

Rush2112 · Post by **Rush2112** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:24 pm

Gunpowder wrote:So if say the Vikings were accused of pumping in crowd noise, since they weren't the Patriots, it would never get investigated or reported?

Reported and caused a media shitstorm are two different things. The Colts piped in crowd noise and it was mentioned for about two minutes. Some of this might be because of the prominence of Twitter and the journalistic jumping that takes place these days, but piping crowd noise and advocating for rules changes that are advantageous to your team's style of play might alter the playing landscape a bit more than having a ball slightly off from the rule book norm.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:25 pm

Joe K wrote:They check the PSI more than 2 hours prior to kickoff. How many NFL Films cameras are following the ball boys before the game even starts?

You apparently missed the 1992 VHS, "NFL Bloopers, Bleeps, Coaches Inspecting the Turf With Their Hands in Their Pockets, Coin Toss Practicing, and Hits That Won't Cause Brain Damage, No Way"

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:26 pm

Rush2112 wrote:a bit more than having a ball slightly off from the rule book norm.

That would be 11 balls, significantly off. Holy fuck.

Rush2112 · Post by **Rush2112** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:27 pm

Joe K wrote: They check the PSI more than 2 hours prior to kickoff. How many NFL Films cameras are following the ball boys before the game even starts?

You don't have to follow them. They have enough footage to see if anyone disappears, the kids are wearing easily identified uniforms/pennies/whateveryouwannacallthem and the damn balls are in a big ass sack, you wouldn't notice if it's being dragged to the corner of the stadium?

Rush2112 · Post by **Rush2112** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:28 pm

Jerloma wrote:
Rush2112 wrote:a bit more than having a ball slightly off from the rule book norm.
That would be 11 balls, significantly off. Holy fuck.

and there have been tweets that it actually may have been .02 off not 2.0, OMG!

Rush2112 · Post by **Rush2112** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:31 pm

Maybe'll just starting sending these out to y'all.

Gunpowder · Post by **Gunpowder** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:40 pm

Rush2112 wrote:
Jerloma wrote:
Rush2112 wrote:a bit more than having a ball slightly off from the rule book norm.
That would be 11 balls, significantly off. Holy fuck.
and there have been tweets that it actually may have been .02 off not 2.0, OMG!

From who, OJ?

Gunpowder · Post by **Gunpowder** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:41 pm

Rush2112 wrote:Maybe'll just starting sending these out to y'all.

Please do Rush, need some more of your patient Boston logic.

tennbengal · Post by **tennbengal** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:49 pm

We're all in agreement then that the Pats legacy is completely sullied?

Yes?

Johnnie · Post by **Johnnie** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:58 pm

Fuck no. Are you serious? You sound like Skip Bayless. Football games are a lot more than recorded sideline signals and under inflated balls.

Way to take an entire decade plus worth of time, effort, and skill and reduce it to infractions with only incremental advantages.

You need to write for a clickbait site with an idea like that.

Jerloma · Post by **Jerloma** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:59 pm

Sure! Why not? I'm in!

Rush2112 · Post by **Rush2112** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 3:01 pm

tennbengal wrote:We're all in agreement then that the Pats legacy is completely sullied?

Yes?

Why would it be sullied? To my knowledge the NFL hasn't officially sad anything. Will Patriot haters bring this up years from now? Yes. But correct me if I'm wrong, but Madden's Raiders teams cheated as much as possible and they're not sullied. Elway's two Super Bowl wins are directly linked to the team undermining the salary cap and he's a saint.